Why can't I have a solar powered car?

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Enki
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Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Enki »

What is holding back the solar powered car? Lets say we have a vehicle that is completely covered in solar cells on every square inch of the body. This vehicle will more than likely be sitting in the Sun more often than not, turned off. I understand that there are hard limits on battery life, and I understand that solar efficiency has some hard limits too. But, being that for the most part the vehicle will be turned off and sitting in the Sun, why isn't it feasible?
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noddy
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by noddy »

oh ralph nader, what have you done :)

if you cant tolerate the risk of "bad" cars you need to put up with a system that only allows government approved "good" cars.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Demon of Undoing wrote:Just give it a good coat of paint.
Better yet - paint the road and we can all ride in giant slot cars.
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Yukon Cornelius
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You can't change the laws of physics, Jim

Post by Yukon Cornelius »

It's just thermodynamics -- the _day_ someone has the ability to make this cost effective, it'll happen all by itself. No one sat around wondering "why isn't anyone putting transistor radios into production?"
noddy
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by noddy »

shame the bulk of the worlds population is in the milder climates that make solar unreliable.

Image

for many of us in the redder bits, its good enough in its current form.. its only a month or so in mid winter i cant expect a sunny day.
we run our hot water off it with very little need for supplementary boosters.
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noddy
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by noddy »

with the safety legislation, if the market moves towards smaller, slower, more metro appropriate transport then as much as it pains me to think this way their could be a valid path for banning large suv's and high powered heavy machines from the inner city roads.

without the crazy mixed usage of weights and speeds involved the safety issues go out the window and we would have a valid arguments to allow small business to flourish doing custom little city cars at less cost than the current buggers... they could be highly flexable for power plant, using whatever makes sense locally.

if we had informal standards about frame sizes then the big factory efficiencies dont go away, they just become parts suppliers for the drive train and brakes and so forth.
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crashtech

Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by crashtech »

Back of envelope arithmetic indicates the amount of average solar power available to 13% efficiency solar cells on a 3 meter square horizontal surface area (more than the average small car) over an 8 hour period is approximately equal to 12 ounces of gasoline. So it would have to be a pretty short commute not to need a bit of supplemental energy.
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I wonder if one of those super light weight bicycle type vehicles would work.

I mostly agree with Yukon.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

We have a huge town here in Florida called The Villages. Designed for seniors, everything is accessible by golf cart. Special roads where autos are not allowed, tunnels under highways, recharging stations, etc.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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noddy
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by noddy »

crashtech wrote:Back of envelope arithmetic indicates the amount of average solar power available to 13% efficiency solar cells on a 3 meter square horizontal surface area (more than the average small car) over an 8 hour period is approximately equal to 12 ounces of gasoline. So it would have to be a pretty short commute not to need a bit of supplemental energy.
most inner city living is short commutes and in places like most of australia you do get a garunteed full day of sunshine.

my desire is purely to let those that want to muck around with little solar/pedal/battery/ethanol powered glorafied go karts do so, i personally know too many good welders/machinists and electronics types who can and would do a lot of interesting things if we didnt live in fear driven worst case scenario government controlled lives.

some communities might use bio fuels, others fuel cells, it all depends on whats available in your area.

the current car industry didnt have to comply with government rules on horse and carriages and didnt spring up from government funding of horse and carriage industries... it came from an era that anyone that wanted to muck around with crazy ideas, did so and didnt have to spend many dollars on licenses and approvals and compliance, nor spend that time in queues.

creative types dont like spending times in queues and paying licenses for experiements that may not work, they like running with ideas as they have them...
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crashtech

Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by crashtech »

I agree 100%, and would never try to discourage anyone, but a good grasp of the challenge involved is helpful, I think. Many people don't realize just how energy dense a fuel gasoline, and even more so diesel are, and just how diffuse the energy in sunlight is in comparison.
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by noddy »

crashtech wrote:I agree 100%, and would never try to discourage anyone, but a good grasp of the challenge involved is helpful, I think. Many people don't realize just how energy dense a fuel gasoline, and even more so diesel are, and just how diffuse the energy in sunlight is in comparison.
aye, and people who live in mild climates make a god of that statement :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge

granted these vehicles are glorafied pushbikes and not real cars.. but....
By 2005, several teams were handicapped by the South Australian speed limit of 110 km/h (68 mph), as well as the difficulties of support crews keeping up with 130 km/h (81 mph) race vehicles. It was generally agreed that the challenge of building a solar vehicle capable of crossing Australia at vehicular speeds had been met and exceeded.
doing little city cars that do 10-40 km maximum round trips at typical city speeds (60kmh max, 30kmh average if your lucky) isnt out of the question with current technology, in some climates aka, the redder ones in my average daily sunshine graphic above.

those poor alaskans and simmilar stuck in endless winters will obviously have to use other technology ;P

some of the colder climate areas have lots of volcanics (new zealand, iceland spring to mind).. for them the experimentation would be around fuel cells and other thermal powered gear.
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crashtech

Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by crashtech »

One of those solar vehicles and a stillsuit would be a damn fine way to travel the Outback.
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by noddy »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:We have a huge town here in Florida called The Villages. Designed for seniors, everything is accessible by golf cart. Special roads where autos are not allowed, tunnels under highways, recharging stations, etc.
grannies leading the way :)
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Simple Minded

Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:
crashtech wrote:Back of envelope arithmetic indicates the amount of average solar power available to 13% efficiency solar cells on a 3 meter square horizontal surface area (more than the average small car) over an 8 hour period is approximately equal to 12 ounces of gasoline. So it would have to be a pretty short commute not to need a bit of supplemental energy.
most inner city living is short commutes and in places like most of australia you do get a garunteed full day of sunshine.

my desire is purely to let those that want to muck around with little solar/pedal/battery/ethanol powered glorafied go karts do so, i personally know too many good welders/machinists and electronics types who can and would do a lot of interesting things if we didnt live in fear driven worst case scenario government controlled lives.

some communities might use bio fuels, others fuel cells, it all depends on whats available in your area.

the current car industry didnt have to comply with government rules on horse and carriages and didnt spring up from government funding of horse and carriage industries... it came from an era that anyone that wanted to muck around with crazy ideas, did so and didnt have to spend many dollars on licenses and approvals and compliance, nor spend that time in queues.

creative types dont like spending times in queues and paying licenses for experiements that may not work, they like running with ideas as they have them...
Excellent description of the early stages of most industries bicycles, motorcycles, farm tractors, cars, computers, furniture, etc. It always fascinates me to go to an antique farm show, most industries are started by the hobbyist and tinkerer. There have been hundreds of manufacturer in the US in each of the early stages of the above mentioned industries. There still are, they are just building stuff for themselves and friends!!

If necessity is the mother of invention, desperation is the whore of innovation.

The consumer wanting the best product for the least money has destroyed most of the hobbyists who attempted to go pro. Governments are simply great barrier creators. What is stopping people in cities from using electric golf carts? Regulation! Wasn't "It" (the Segway) going to change the world?
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monster_gardener
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by monster_gardener »

noddy wrote:
crashtech wrote:Back of envelope arithmetic indicates the amount of average solar power available to 13% efficiency solar cells on a 3 meter square horizontal surface area (more than the average small car) over an 8 hour period is approximately equal to 12 ounces of gasoline. So it would have to be a pretty short commute not to need a bit of supplemental energy.
most inner city living is short commutes and in places like most of australia you do get a garunteed full day of sunshine.

my desire is purely to let those that want to muck around with little solar/pedal/battery/ethanol powered glorafied go karts do so, i personally know too many good welders/machinists and electronics types who can and would do a lot of interesting things if we didnt live in fear driven worst case scenario government controlled lives.

some communities might use bio fuels, others fuel cells, it all depends on whats available in your area.

the current car industry didnt have to comply with government rules on horse and carriages and didnt spring up from government funding of horse and carriage industries... it came from an era that anyone that wanted to muck around with crazy ideas, did so and didnt have to spend many dollars on licenses and approvals and compliance, nor spend that time in queues.

creative types dont like spending times in queues and paying licenses for experiements that may not work, they like running with ideas as they have them...
Thank you very much for your posts, Crashtech and Noddy.
noddy wrote:
crashtech wrote:Back of envelope arithmetic indicates the amount of average solar power available to 13% efficiency solar cells on a 3 meter square horizontal surface area (more than the average small car) over an 8 hour period is approximately equal to 12 ounces of gasoline. So it would have to be a pretty short commute not to need a bit of supplemental energy.
most inner city living is short commutes and in places like most of australia you do get a garunteed full day of sunshine.
No reason to confine the energy gathering surface to the car itself: cover your house or bus parking garage etc. with solar energy arrays...............

Buses that have defined regular routes could be a good entry point for solar or at least electric powered vehicles.
the current car industry didnt have to comply with government rules on horse and carriages and didnt spring up from government funding of horse and carriage industries... it came from an era that anyone that wanted to muck around with crazy ideas, did so and didnt have to spend many dollars on licenses and approvals and compliance, nor spend that time in queues.
Butt :wink: it did have the advantage that horse manure had become a tremendous problem in the cities making people quite happy to try the 'less polluting" automobiles"

Another advantage a car has over a horse is that if you don't use it you don't need to feed it and if you have an industrial base, easier to get and install spare parts such as a tire vs. a leg.......

Unfortunately unlike a good horse, donkey or mule, a car won't get you home safe if you're drunk yet............
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noddy
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by noddy »

crashtech wrote:One of those solar vehicles and a stillsuit would be a damn fine way to travel the Outback.
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/201 ... freely.ars

your stillsuit is ready
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crashtech

Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by crashtech »

noddy wrote:http://arstechnica.com/science/news/201 ... freely.ars

your stillsuit is ready
Fascinating. Thank you.
Demon of Undoing
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Patience, Daniel-san.

Researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and RMIT University have made a breakthrough in energy storage and power generation.
The power generated relative to the energy source size is three to four times greater than what is currently possible with the best lithium-ion batteries.

While on sabbatical from RMIT in 2009 and 2010, Associate Professor Dr Kourosh Kalantar-zadeh, from the School of Electrical and Computer Engineering, joined MIT Associate Professor Michael Strano's nanotechnology research group.

The team was working on measuring the acceleration of a chemical reaction along a nanotube when they discovered that the reaction generated power.

Now the two researchers are using their combined expertise in chemistry and nanomaterials to explore this phenomenon.

Their work titled Nanodynamite: Fuel-coated nanotubes could provide bursts of power to the smallest systems is in the December IEEE Spectrum Magazine, the publication of the IEEE.

Associate Professor Kalantar-zadeh said that his experimental system, based on one of the materials that have come from nanotechnology — carbon nanotubes — generates power, something researchers had not seen before.

“By coating a nanotube in nitrocellulose fuel and igniting one end, we set off a combustion wave along it and learned that a nanotube is an excellent conductor of heat from burning fuel. Even better, the combustion wave creates a strong electric current,” he said.

“Our discovery that a thermopower wave works best across these tubes because of their dual conductivity turns conventional thermoelectricity on its head.

“It's the first viable nanoscale approach to power generation that exploits the thermoelectric effect by overcoming the feasibility issues associated with minimising dimensions.

“But there are multiple angles to explore when it comes to taming these exotic waves and, ultimately, finding out if they're the wave of the future.”
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Enki
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Enki »

People also don't talk that much about efficiency. An electric car can be far far lighter than the current cars we have. There is no real reason that cars must be as heavy as they are.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
crashtech

Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by crashtech »

There are lots of real reasons why cars weigh what they do, most having to do with safety, and the fact that steel is far less expensive to build with than aluminum or composites. Also, the conversion to electric power tends to increase vehicle weight due to the very large mass of the battery.

Much lighter vehicles could easily be manufactured, but something would have to be sacrificed. At present, that would mean either a very expensive vehicle, or a very unsafe one. In the latter case, decades of Federal safety regulations would need to be rolled back.

The assertion that merely switching the power source from hydrocarbons to electricity should inherently result in a lighter vehicle betrays a poor understanding of the energy densities of currently available energy storage systems.
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Typhoon »

Image
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Enki
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Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Enki »

crashtech wrote:There are lots of real reasons why cars weigh what they do, most having to do with safety, and the fact that steel is far less expensive to build with than aluminum or composites. Also, the conversion to electric power tends to increase vehicle weight due to the very large mass of the battery.
Safety is a concern because the other vehicles all weigh that much. It's sort of an arms race. But if the vehicles all weighed less then they could weigh less. The batteries are going to weigh what they'll weigh but the frame and body can be lighter.
Much lighter vehicles could easily be manufactured, but something would have to be sacrificed. At present, that would mean either a very expensive vehicle, or a very unsafe one. In the latter case, decades of Federal safety regulations would need to be rolled back.
I don't think those little smart cars are particularly unsafe when you're talking about 35mph driving speeds within town.
The assertion that merely switching the power source from hydrocarbons to electricity should inherently result in a lighter vehicle betrays a poor understanding of the energy densities of currently available energy storage systems.
No. You're just going for a straw man. I am saying that things CAN get lighter as they get more energy efficient. Both things are advancing at the same time. There are lots of things in the car that can weigh less other than the battery, engine and drive train.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Simple Minded

Re: Why can't I have a solar powered car?

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:Image
Excellent graph Typhoon!!!! Lots of info in a high density format.

Looks like a car that uses recycled plastics makes a lot of sense.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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