Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

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SP | China grabbing up uranium to secure nuclear lead
More signs that China will lead the world in nuclear power: The country is snapping up a significant chunk of the world’s supply of uranium in part by buying mines in Africa and making deals with Canada to secure the nuclear fuel.

China is on track to build up to 100 nuclear reactors by 2030. It already has 27 of those under construction, as a path away from the polluting, CO2-emitting coal-fired plants that supply 80 percent of its electricity. The country looks likely to vault into the top position of nuclear generating nations - 100 new reactors would be nearly a quarter of the 435 nuclear power reactors that are commercially generating electricity in the world today.
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I like a CANDU attitude...Re:Thorium|Next gen nuclear power

Post by monster_gardener »

Milo wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:CANDUs are still the ones to beat guys!
Why has Canada not actively pursued the thorium + CANDU option?
We've been caught in a dilemma up here for decades.

Our right wing does not want to initiate any projects that would show up the American defense establishment; they have instructions to run a well-behaved branch office! Meanwhile, out left wing wants anything nuclear to go away. The upshot is, that it's a miracle that we even have a program at this point.

However, to be fair, I'm told that only India has built a reactor capable of testing different fuels. Yes, apparently everyone else just decides in advance what will work, based on data decades old, and then runs a huge reactor. India has a reactor where small amounts of fuel can be burned in short runs, so that they can... see what works best! This entire industry runs in a very strange way if you ask me.
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Milo.
Our right wing does not want to initiate any projects that would show up the American defense establishment; they have instructions to run a well-behaved branch office!
Please tell more.......... Are our mis-leaders trying to dictate to Canada?

FWIW, I an American, have supported CANDU for years......... Ever since I read about CANDU in college.......... Wish we and others would give it a try............ Safer IMVHO than our American designs...... Would like to think we could see it to the Greens here........

Can burn thorium or nuclear waste.............

More and More I think Canada does many things better than we/Uz do............. Not everything............ But enough that would be good to imitate.
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Re: I like a CANDU attitude...Re:Thorium|Next gen nuclear po

Post by Milo »

monster_gardener wrote:
Milo wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:CANDUs are still the ones to beat guys!
Why has Canada not actively pursued the thorium + CANDU option?
We've been caught in a dilemma up here for decades.

Our right wing does not want to initiate any projects that would show up the American defense establishment; they have instructions to run a well-behaved branch office! Meanwhile, out left wing wants anything nuclear to go away. The upshot is, that it's a miracle that we even have a program at this point.

However, to be fair, I'm told that only India has built a reactor capable of testing different fuels. Yes, apparently everyone else just decides in advance what will work, based on data decades old, and then runs a huge reactor. India has a reactor where small amounts of fuel can be burned in short runs, so that they can... see what works best! This entire industry runs in a very strange way if you ask me.
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Milo.
Our right wing does not want to initiate any projects that would show up the American defense establishment; they have instructions to run a well-behaved branch office!
Please tell more.......... Are our mis-leaders trying to dictate to Canada?

FWIW, I an American, have supported CANDU for years......... Ever since I read about CANDU in college.......... Wish we and others would give it a try............ Safer IMVHO than our American designs...... Would like to think we could see it to the Greens here........

Can burn thorium or nuclear waste.............

More and More I think Canada does many things better than we/Uz do............. Not everything............ But enough that would be good to imitate.
The branch office problem has been with us for some time. One of the most stark examples is Diefenbaker scrapping our world class fighter jet program.

But the fact is that CANDU's, along with a lot of other nuclear technologies, may be obsolete in a world with commercialized LFTR technology.

In general, fission power has no solid political franchise in the west, and hasn't for some time: The left wants us to scrap everything that generates enough power to create an enjoyable lifestyle, and the right thinks that anything that does not belch smoke will turn you gay!

It will take a sputnik moment to shake this paradigm.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

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ACS | Nuclear power plants can produce hydrogen to fuel the 'hydrogen economy'
The long-sought technology for enabling the fabled "hydrogen economy" — an era based on hydrogen fuel that replaces gasoline, diesel and other fossil fuels, easing concerns about foreign oil and air pollution — has been available for decades and could begin commercial production of hydrogen in this decade, a scientist reported here [ACS meeting] today.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Azrael »

Typhoon wrote:ACS | Nuclear power plants can produce hydrogen to fuel the 'hydrogen economy'
The long-sought technology for enabling the fabled "hydrogen economy" — an era based on hydrogen fuel that replaces gasoline, diesel and other fossil fuels, easing concerns about foreign oil and air pollution — has been available for decades and could begin commercial production of hydrogen in this decade, a scientist reported here [ACS meeting] today.
We just need to improve fuel cell technology and hydrogen infrastructure, both areas where we're well behind where we should be. It's a question of time and resources. Resources have been tight (resources for non-military science have been tight for decades) and even with decent expenditure it won't happen overnight.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

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Well, someone in Europe is proceeding to build nuclear electric power stations . . .

Reuters | Lithuania signs nuclear plant concession deal with Hitachi
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

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Azrael wrote:
Typhoon wrote:ACS | Nuclear power plants can produce hydrogen to fuel the 'hydrogen economy'
The long-sought technology for enabling the fabled "hydrogen economy" — an era based on hydrogen fuel that replaces gasoline, diesel and other fossil fuels, easing concerns about foreign oil and air pollution — has been available for decades and could begin commercial production of hydrogen in this decade, a scientist reported here [ACS meeting] today.
We just need to improve fuel cell technology and hydrogen infrastructure, both areas where we're well behind where we should be. It's a question of time and resources. Resources have been tight (resources for non-military science have been tight for decades) and even with decent expenditure it won't happen overnight.
Aqueous homogeneous reactor [AHR] | Hydrogen production by radiolysis

Hydrogen production by radiolysis

An old technology, AHR is probably safer than a carbon fueled power station, and which can produce electrical power, much needed medical isotopes, high neutron fluxes for research and radiotherapy, and hydrogen all at once.

The challenge of a hydrogen economy:

Image
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Milo »

Although one could use nuclear to produce hydrogen, and in some cases that would be desirable, I do wonder about the mindset. In most cases a LTFR would produce power and no other fuel or process would be necessary.

IOW, except for automobiles, there is almost no reason to produce fuel from nuclear, you just use nuclear. If we could rebuild some decent rail infrastructure, that would reduce the need for anything but grid power to nearly 0, with the itinerant efficiencies of the grid, or even without them.

This video is a 1.5 hour investment but it speaks to many issues regarding LFTR. Anyone with an interest in alternative energy should take the time to watch it. This guy trashes many common myths so elegantly that you wonder how you ever bought into any of them.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

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ELP | China to drop solar energy to focus on nuclear power
Asia Pulse
March 12, 2012
China will accelerate the use of new-energy sources such as nuclear energy and put an end to blind expansion in industries such as solar energy and wind power in 2012, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao says in a government report published on March 5.

China will instead develop nuclear power in 2012, actively develop hydroelectric power, tackle key problems more quickly in the exploration and development of shale gas, and increase the share of new energy and renewable energy in total energy consumption.

The guidance indicates a new trend for new-energy and renewable energy development in China from 2012. Analysts believe that the development of the solar and wind power industries will stabilize while hydropower will have the top priority in renewable energy development in China.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by crashtech »

Milo wrote:Although one could use nuclear to produce hydrogen, and in some cases that would be desirable, I do wonder about the mindset. In most cases a LTFR would produce power and no other fuel or process would be necessary.

IOW, except for automobiles, there is almost no reason to produce fuel from nuclear, you just use nuclear. If we could rebuild some decent rail infrastructure, that would reduce the need for anything but grid power to nearly 0, with the itinerant efficiencies of the grid, or even without them.

This video is a 1.5 hour investment but it speaks to many issues regarding LFTR. Anyone with an interest in alternative energy should take the time to watch it. This guy trashes many common myths so elegantly that you wonder how you ever bought into any of them.
EbucAwOT2Sc
I made the investment, thanks for bringing it to our attention. Having HF gas and radioactive material flowing around in a very hot system does give rise to some trepidation, but the use of HF in industrial processes is pretty well understood, so it may be a baseless concern on my part.

I consider it likely that we will become followers of the Chinese. We've lost the initiative .
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Milo »

crashtech wrote:
Milo wrote:Although one could use nuclear to produce hydrogen, and in some cases that would be desirable, I do wonder about the mindset. In most cases a LTFR would produce power and no other fuel or process would be necessary.

IOW, except for automobiles, there is almost no reason to produce fuel from nuclear, you just use nuclear. If we could rebuild some decent rail infrastructure, that would reduce the need for anything but grid power to nearly 0, with the itinerant efficiencies of the grid, or even without them.

This video is a 1.5 hour investment but it speaks to many issues regarding LFTR. Anyone with an interest in alternative energy should take the time to watch it. This guy trashes many common myths so elegantly that you wonder how you ever bought into any of them.
EbucAwOT2Sc
I made the investment, thanks for bringing it to our attention. Having HF gas and radioactive material flowing around in a very hot system does give rise to some trepidation, but the use of HF in industrial processes is pretty well understood, so it may be a baseless concern on my part.

I consider it likely that we will become followers of the Chinese. We've lost the initiative .
There have been concerns expressed about the engineering of this process, including what you allude to. To me, engineering is no big deal; this design is over 50 years old, and modern improvements should come relatively easily. The point is that this design works better overall than the present Uranium systems, even though it's older than me!

More than anything, the Chinese et al cannot afford the silly anti-nuclear sentiment that much of the rest of the world indulges in. And by the time the rest of the world overcomes this sentiment, it will be too late. Go China!
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Re: I like a CANDU attitude...Re:Thorium|Next gen nuclear po

Post by Azrael »

Milo wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Milo wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:CANDUs are still the ones to beat guys!
Why has Canada not actively pursued the thorium + CANDU option?
We've been caught in a dilemma up here for decades.

Our right wing does not want to initiate any projects that would show up the American defense establishment; they have instructions to run a well-behaved branch office! Meanwhile, out left wing wants anything nuclear to go away. The upshot is, that it's a miracle that we even have a program at this point.

However, to be fair, I'm told that only India has built a reactor capable of testing different fuels. Yes, apparently everyone else just decides in advance what will work, based on data decades old, and then runs a huge reactor. India has a reactor where small amounts of fuel can be burned in short runs, so that they can... see what works best! This entire industry runs in a very strange way if you ask me.
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Milo.
Our right wing does not want to initiate any projects that would show up the American defense establishment; they have instructions to run a well-behaved branch office!
Please tell more.......... Are our mis-leaders trying to dictate to Canada?

FWIW, I an American, have supported CANDU for years......... Ever since I read about CANDU in college.......... Wish we and others would give it a try............ Safer IMVHO than our American designs...... Would like to think we could see it to the Greens here........

Can burn thorium or nuclear waste.............

More and More I think Canada does many things better than we/Uz do............. Not everything............ But enough that would be good to imitate.
The branch office problem has been with us for some time. One of the most stark examples is Diefenbaker scrapping our world class fighter jet program.
It was probably the right decision to make; but don't tell that to the myth-makers, who distort history.
But the fact is that CANDU's, along with a lot of other nuclear technologies, may be obsolete in a world with commercialized LFTR technology.
High fossil fuel prices may end up increasing funding for the development of LFTR technology.
In general, fission power has no solid political franchise in the west, and hasn't for some time: The left wants us to scrap everything that generates enough power to create an enjoyable lifestyle, and the right thinks that anything that does not belch smoke will turn you gay!

It will take a sputnik moment to shake this paradigm.
Or high fossil fuel prices.
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HAL9000

Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by HAL9000 »

Many thanks for mentioning the new reactors.

Here is a video of Bill Gates speaking about the Terrapower Traveling Wave Reactor. Bill Gates is actually investing some of his money in this research and development, but maybe it is too little, and too slow. He should put billions, not millions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwRYtiSbbVg
HAL9000

Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by HAL9000 »

Typhoon wrote:SP | China grabbing up uranium to secure nuclear lead
More signs that China will lead the world in nuclear power: The country is snapping up a significant chunk of the world’s supply of uranium in part by buying mines in Africa and making deals with Canada to secure the nuclear fuel.

China is on track to build up to 100 nuclear reactors by 2030. It already has 27 of those under construction, as a path away from the polluting, CO2-emitting coal-fired plants that supply 80 percent of its electricity. The country looks likely to vault into the top position of nuclear generating nations - 100 new reactors would be nearly a quarter of the 435 nuclear power reactors that are commercially generating electricity in the world today.
Here is a negative development that I did not expect. I did not know that the traditional pressurized water reactors require so much water to operate. Apparently even coal-fired power plants need considerable water. I really think we need to find ways of recycling water or switch to gas or liquid metal or molten salt reactors faster.

Water shortages inside the United States might be an obstacle against many more nuclear reactors. And this is shocking because the United States has a lot more water than most countries.

http://theenergycollective.com/node/107461

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... upply.html
As the United States' extended heat wave and drought threaten to raise global food prices, energy production is also feeling the pressure. Across the nation, power plants are becoming overheated and shutting down or running at lower capacity; drilling operations struggle to get the water they need, and crops that would become biofuel are withering.

While analysts say the US should survive this year without major blackouts, more frequent droughts and increased population size will continue to strain power generation in the future.

Power plants are a hidden casualty of droughts, says Barbara Carney of the National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL) in Morgantown, West Virginia, because they are completely dependent on water for cooling and make up about half the water usage in the US. That makes them vulnerable in a heat wave. If water levels in the rivers that cool them drop too low, the power plant – already overworked from the heat – won't be able to draw in enough water. In addition, if the cooling water discharged from a plant raises already-hot river temperatures above certain thresholds, environmental regulations require the plant to shut down.

One nuclear plant in Connecticut recently had to shut down because the sea water used for cooling was too warm. Nationwide, nuclear generation is at its lowest in a decade, with the plants operating at only 93 per cent of capacity.

Nuclear is the thirstiest power source. According to NETL, the average nuclear plant that generates 12.2 million megawatt hours of electricity requires far more water to cool its turbines than other power plants. Nuclear plants need 2725 litres of water per megawatt hour for cooling. Coal or natural gas plants need, on average, only 1890 and 719 litres respectively to produce the same amount of energy.

While it's likely that these other types of power plants are suffering too, Tyson Brown of the Energy Information Administration says it is impossible to know yet how the heat and drought has affected them. Nuclear plants are required to report when they shut down and why, but other power plants are not.

Next, this article says that water shortages are threatening France's nuclear reactor complex. France is the most nuclear power dependent major Western country, where most of the electricity is nuclear:
http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/ ... mplex.html

Bottom line: this might have serious implications for China's plans to build many reactors. China has severe water shortages, and even coal-fired power plants need a lot of water, unless new designs are able to recycle water.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

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WW | Transmuting [Nuclear] Waste and Worries Away
A particle accelerator to create fast neutrons for the treatment of problematic nuclear waste.

By capturing these neutrons, the waste can be transmuted into fission products with much shorter half-lives. The beauty of this concept is that the nuclear waste simultaneously serves as fuel in a sub-critical reactor. A recent paper on this concept can be found here, and there is also an excellent presentation online (which is the source for the MYRRHA diagram and radiotoxicity graph).
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Milo »

Not to be Mr. smug but Thorium Liquid Salt Reactors do not need coolant water and can burn existing nuclear waste down to a fraction of its current mess.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

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IEEE Spectrum | Nuclear Fuel From the Sea
14 September 2012—Next time you go to the beach, think about this: You’re swimming in nuclear fuel. Our oceans contain an estimated 4.5 billion metric tons of uranium, diluted down to a minuscule 3.3 parts per billion. The idea of extracting uranium from seawater has been kicking around for decades now, but the materials and processes to do so may finally be economically viable.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Typhoon wrote:IEEE Spectrum | Nuclear Fuel From the Sea
14 September 2012—Next time you go to the beach, think about this: You’re swimming in nuclear fuel. Our oceans contain an estimated 4.5 billion metric tons of uranium, diluted down to a minuscule 3.3 parts per billion. The idea of extracting uranium from seawater has been kicking around for decades now, but the materials and processes to do so may finally be economically viable.
So, if taking out pure water from the ocean and leaving the salt in is called de-salinization would taking out the uranium and leaving the water be called urination?
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Farcus »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Typhoon wrote:IEEE Spectrum | Nuclear Fuel From the Sea
14 September 2012—Next time you go to the beach, think about this: You’re swimming in nuclear fuel. Our oceans contain an estimated 4.5 billion metric tons of uranium, diluted down to a minuscule 3.3 parts per billion. The idea of extracting uranium from seawater has been kicking around for decades now, but the materials and processes to do so may finally be economically viable.
So, if taking out pure water from the ocean and leaving the salt in is called de-salinization would taking out the uranium and leaving the water be called urination?
No, that would be called Recycling. :lol:
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Milo »

Farcus wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Typhoon wrote:IEEE Spectrum | Nuclear Fuel From the Sea
14 September 2012—Next time you go to the beach, think about this: You’re swimming in nuclear fuel. Our oceans contain an estimated 4.5 billion metric tons of uranium, diluted down to a minuscule 3.3 parts per billion. The idea of extracting uranium from seawater has been kicking around for decades now, but the materials and processes to do so may finally be economically viable.
So, if taking out pure water from the ocean and leaving the salt in is called de-salinization would taking out the uranium and leaving the water be called urination?
No, that would be called Recycling. :lol:
Yes, one of the LFTR vids that I've watched mentioned that Uranium is so common and cheaply extracted that it doesn't take a very high price before we could extract all that we would ever need.
The problem is that it's still the wrong fuel.
Mostly, the problems of having to run at the edge of critical don't go away, like the need for huge cooling systems that have no passive safety.
Also, utilizing 5% of Uranium in any current, or envisionable, reactor technology, is considered the limit of productivity for Uranium, whereas Thorium is the opposite: about 95% utilization or more.
Thus Thorium almsot completely eliminates both the waste and safety concerns right out of the gate. Considering the benefits of those 2 things alone, it must be worth it to develope LTFR.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

I read we need old style reactors so we can manufacture bomb material. Seems thorium reactors do not do that.
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Milo »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:I read we need old style reactors so we can manufacture bomb material. Seems thorium reactors do not do that.
Only thing they don't do better!
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Azrael »

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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Typhoon »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Typhoon wrote:IEEE Spectrum | Nuclear Fuel From the Sea
14 September 2012—Next time you go to the beach, think about this: You’re swimming in nuclear fuel. Our oceans contain an estimated 4.5 billion metric tons of uranium, diluted down to a minuscule 3.3 parts per billion. The idea of extracting uranium from seawater has been kicking around for decades now, but the materials and processes to do so may finally be economically viable.
So, if taking out pure water from the ocean and leaving the salt in is called de-salinization would taking out the uranium and leaving the water be called urination?
de-urination or taking the piss
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Re: Thorium | Next gen nuclear power

Post by Simple Minded »

this sounds like the voice of experience speaking:

......Professor Gu Zhongmao from the China Institute of Atomic Energy cautioned against too much exuberance on so-called fourth-generation reactors. “These projects are beautiful to scientists, but nightmarish to engineers,” he told the SCMP.
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