Postmodernism and Critical Theory. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Simple Minded

Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote: If true.. then what about the "divine individual" vis-a-vis the raw powers in nature, and the post-modernist/marxist claim that all is a power struggle between groups and classes of people? The latter would be more realistic in a world where free will and individual agency are illusory.
Somewhat accessing a previous post, it is not at all hard for me to see how someone raised in contact with nature (those who work outside in low population density areas) can believe in god, while the person raised in an urban setting would be much more likely to believe in the power of the state as the supreme authority/power for good.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

I Think the essential issue with determinsts is that they are simply afraid of being wrong.

Athiests have the the same problem, but they also are afraid of having to discern right from wrong.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Typhoon
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Typhoon »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:I Think the essential issue with determinsts is that they are simply afraid of being wrong.

Athiests have the the same problem, but they also are afraid of having to discern right from wrong.
Not this atheist.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Simple Minded

Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Simple Minded »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:I Think the essential issue with determinsts is that they are simply afraid of being wrong.

Athiests have the the same problem, but they also are afraid of having to discern right from wrong.
Are you referring to those who self-identify as determinists and atheists? Or those you label as such?

What would motivate a determinist to get out of bed in the morning?
Simple Minded

Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:I Think the essential issue with determinsts is that they are simply afraid of being wrong.

Athiests have the the same problem, but they also are afraid of having to discern right from wrong.
Not this atheist.
Yes, but is it the god of the Catholics or the god of the Protestants that you don't believe in? ;)

I suspect more than a few people are atheists because of the self-appointed religious sales representatives they have met.

Belief in a higher power, sure, why not? Hang out with those people (people who are motivated by facilitating my betterment) on a regular basis? No thanks.
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kmich
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by kmich »

It is not that people are afraid of being wrong as much as it is so much easier to avoid the intellectual work that would reveal the relational, conditional, and ultimately insubstantial nature of their sweeping claims. Athens charged Socrates for impiety and corrupting youth not because of his assertions, but because of his leaving any assumption open to incessant questioning that would end up exposing their tenuous and conditional nature. The “gadfly” who was impeccably intellectually honest was therefore determined to be subversive and dangerous.

Assertions only have meaning in their relational context and, and if stated with sufficient clarity, are always accompanied by the possibility of their negation. As a result, all assertions are always contextual and conditional and cannot be proclaimed as absolutes. This is the foundation of scientific methodological integrity with the necessity that any viable hypothesis must be testable and falsifiable.

My assertion that “God exists” is my own construction that not only presupposes its atheist negation, but also begs the irresolvable questions as to what do I mean by “God,” and under what conditions and attributes such a being could exist. In addition, assertions of atheism are meaningful only in relation to theistic propositions. Both are vague, untestable, human constructions, and are insubstantial in their very nature.

In the case of determinism vs. “free will,” while conditions obviously impact on our decisions, these conditions also include our prior decisions, which affect external factors, which, in turn affect our decisions, and so on. These processes create systemic, referential loops with inherent indeterminism, which are currently fundamental to developing AI “smart” technologies. Neither “free will” nor “determinism” can be any way considered absolute and have no meaning outside of their systemic relations. In addition, many fundamental, scientific findings from biological genetic mutations (2017 study claimed that 66% of cancer-causing mutations are random, 29% were attributed to environmental factors) to quantum indeterminism in Physics leave the questions of determinism unresolved under certain conditions.

The study of Philosophy is not fundamentally about learning the assertions or conclusions of various thinkers, but a careful tracing of the assumptions, logic, and methods through which these conclusions were derived. That is difficult and can be tedious work, but it does help form a Socratic discipline that is both open but skeptical to various profound sounding pontifications from the assortment of self-help gurus and YouTube stars that comprise our current public intellectuals. I suspect though that Socratic humility and intellectual integrity would receive very few views or subscribers.
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

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She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
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Parodite
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Parodite »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:I think the essential issue with determinists is that they are simply afraid of being wrong.
When it is deterministic turtles all the way down and up, left and right, there is no reason to worry much. Although we don't know all the causal details, the complexities and random play, the zillions of law abiding turtle slaves are extremely reliable servants, faithfully carrying us from the cradle to grave. Maybe we don't know what we are doing exactly and how and why, but they certainly do!

I would guesstimate that there are very few serious and informed scientists and philosophers who still believe that a 100% deterministic model of reality gives or can give an accurate and full description. Maybe the holy grail of "a theory of everything" can one day tell us more, but I'm skeptical that such a theory can even exist. And if it can, then so what? I'm not particularly into Buddhism but some little gems stick:

Before enlightenment we cut wood and drink tea.
After enlightenment we cut wood and drink tea.
Atheists have the same problem, but they also are afraid of having to discern right from wrong.
I think in every believer hides an atheist. Maybe the vice-versa is also true but the believer in the atheist appears more amorphous. Especially when it is more like a doubting Thomas agnostic.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

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Parodite wrote:
I think in every believer hides an atheist. Maybe the vice-versa is also true
Lol.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Parodite wrote:
I think in every believer hides an atheist. Maybe the vice-versa is also true
Lol.
Yes..... it is true. In every atheist is a believer, whether he likes it or not.......;>....:
There is empirical evidence that backs up Jung’s idea of a religious instinct. Researchers have found that the less religious people are, the more likely they are to believe in UFOs. “The Western world is, in theory, becoming increasingly secular — but the religious mind remains active,” writes psychology professor Clay Routledge, in The New York Times. He notes that belief in aliens and UFOs appears to be associated with a need to find meaning.
http://quillette.com/2018/02/21/search- ... ossession/
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
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Typhoon
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Typhoon »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Parodite wrote:
I think in every believer hides an atheist. Maybe the vice-versa is also true
Lol.
Yes..... it is true. In every atheist is a believer, whether he likes it or not.......;>....:
There is empirical evidence that backs up Jung’s idea of a religious instinct. Researchers have found that the less religious people are, the more likely they are to believe in UFOs. “The Western world is, in theory, becoming increasingly secular — but the religious mind remains active,” writes psychology professor Clay Routledge, in The New York Times. He notes that belief in aliens and UFOs appears to be associated with a need to find meaning.
http://quillette.com/2018/02/21/search- ... ossession/
Good article. Thanks for posting it.

It is certainly easy to substitute a shallow secular belief for a metaphysical religious one.
Therefore one should select one's beliefs carefully ;)
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Simple Minded

Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Parodite wrote:
I think in every believer hides an atheist. Maybe the vice-versa is also true
Lol.
Yes..... it is true. In every atheist is a believer, whether he likes it or not.......;>....:
There is empirical evidence that backs up Jung’s idea of a religious instinct. Researchers have found that the less religious people are, the more likely they are to believe in UFOs. “The Western world is, in theory, becoming increasingly secular — but the religious mind remains active,” writes psychology professor Clay Routledge, in The New York Times. He notes that belief in aliens and UFOs appears to be associated with a need to find meaning.
http://quillette.com/2018/02/21/search- ... ossession/
Good article. Thanks for posting it.

It is certainly easy to substitute a shallow secular belief for a metaphysical religious one.
Therefore one should select one's beliefs carefully ;)
Stands to reason. Substituting one non-demonstrable belief for another? Why not? Unless of course the second non-demonstrable belief does not provide one with the same therapeutic benefits.

Doomer porn types do it all the time. The Coming Ice Age becomes AGW becomes Climate Change. Why shouldn't "savior porn" types or the "I have the only truth, you don't" types do it also?

Truth? Does that make one feel good? As good as rationalizing? How do they compare in terms of cost per pound? Which requires less sacrifice? What type of delayed payment plans are available?
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Mr. Perfect »

kmich wrote: My assertion that “God exists” is my own construction that not only presupposes its atheist negation, but also begs the irresolvable questions as to what do I mean by “God,” and under what conditions and attributes such a being could exist. In addition, assertions of atheism are meaningful only in relation to theistic propositions. Both are vague, untestable, human constructions, and are insubstantial in their very nature.
Weren't you an atheist a few years ago?

BTW the scripture says to test the word.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Parodite
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Parodite »

I would think the Awmighty doesn't need me to prove he exists. Nor did he ever ask for my help. Everybody happy. :) Sometimes the problem is that there is no problem. The clothes have no Empress.
Deep down I'm very superficial
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

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May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Typhoon »

Quillete | Incomprehension 501: Intro to Graduate School [in the Humanities]
I quickly learned that, like Kotsko, many of my professors valued paradoxical and obscure arguments. And I got pretty good at making them. In an essay on Wallace Stevens, I concluded by asserting, “If everything is nothing, then that nothingness is everything. For poetry to encompass one, it encompasses the other. When Stevens’s mind of winter descends into the inescapable nothingness of his subjectivity, he has claimed for himself the totality of everything.” I don’t know what this means. But I wrote it and I was rewarded for it.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Simple Minded

Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:Quillete | Incomprehension 501: Intro to Graduate School [in the Humanities]
I quickly learned that, like Kotsko, many of my professors valued paradoxical and obscure arguments. And I got pretty good at making them. In an essay on Wallace Stevens, I concluded by asserting, “If everything is nothing, then that nothingness is everything. For poetry to encompass one, it encompasses the other. When Stevens’s mind of winter descends into the inescapable nothingness of his subjectivity, he has claimed for himself the totality of everything.” I don’t know what this means. But I wrote it and I was rewarded for it.
Made my day, Typhoon. Thanks for posting. Reminds me of Dioscuri's posts. And why I decided against pursuing a degree in philosophy. The contest of trying to our bullshit each other during class discussions was a lot of fun though. Until I remembered that I was paying for this crap with my own money.

During seven years of college, I had two incompetent/apathetic professors in the hard sciences. In the fluffy stuff, like philosophy and history, I had one professor I admired.

I used to tell my wife, the best argument for owning guns is adults whose parents did not spank them as children. Got to add SJW's and the professor who create them to the list. Perhaps I am repeating myself.

" George Orwell’s “Politics and the English Language” so clearly explains the causes and consequences of bad writing, that it’s no surprise I read it for the first time after leaving graduate school. He observes that “[Our language] becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts.” The bad and predictable style “will construct your sentences for you — even think your thoughts for you, to a certain extent — and at need they will perform the important service of partially concealing your meaning even from yourself.” Obscure arguments and poor style exclude independent thought and new ideas. Orwell would not be surprised to see the poor style and the growing intolerance to free speech in many of our universities today.
noddy
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by noddy »

the cat is out of the bag now mr "simple minded" .. your dastardly worldview has been exposed.

http://www.psypost.org/2018/03/good-loo ... fair-50979
Beautiful people tend to believe that life is fundamentally fair and just, according to new research conducted with college students.

The study, published in the journal Psychological Reports, examined the relationship between physical attractiveness and belief in a just world, meaning the belief that people get what they deserve and deserve what they get.
deny all you want, science has spoken.
“I have an important message to deliver to all the cute people all over the world. If you're out there and you're cute, maybe you're beautiful. I just want to tell you somethin' — there's more of us UGLY MOTHERFUCKERS than you are, hey-y, so watch out.”
― Frank Zappa
ultracrepidarian
Simple Minded

Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:the cat is out of the bag now mr "simple minded" .. your dastardly worldview has been exposed.

http://www.psypost.org/2018/03/good-loo ... fair-50979
Beautiful people tend to believe that life is fundamentally fair and just, according to new research conducted with college students.

The study, published in the journal Psychological Reports, examined the relationship between physical attractiveness and belief in a just world, meaning the belief that people get what they deserve and deserve what they get.
deny all you want, science has spoken.
Damn the internet and all those self-styled, hyper-sensitive, intellectuals for exposing my secret.

All right, I'll fess up.

Once, I too, also considered myself a victim of the "me minus 1%ers" of society. Then after decades of reading self-help books (sadly, they were only widely available in stores during the 60's and 70's.... not my fault Get Xers and Gen Yers! Maybe if your parents didn't raise you as little god-like tyrants, there may have still been a market for them when you reached your teen years), I decided rather than face the reality of my ignorant, inbred, ugly, poor, white-guilt riddled, male, redneck existence, I would self-identify as an intelligent, cultured, beautiful, rich, non-white, trans-everything, urbane elitist. The world has never been better since! :D

Self-delusion as the cornerstone of happiness is a derivation of necessity is the mother of invention.

Self-delusion kicks butt! And if I can do it, so can others.

It f**king sucks to be a virtue signaling, selfless, altruist when one of the requirements is total lack of self-awareness.

Other problem, when you tell someone who considers themselves to be selfless to "go f**k yourself" it just doesn't carry any useful meaning for them.... they never view it as constructive criticism! :P

other helpful article:

http://www.psypost.org/2018/03/women-me ... inds-50942
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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

noddy wrote:the cat is out of the bag now mr "simple minded" .. your dastardly worldview has been exposed.

http://www.psypost.org/2018/03/good-loo ... fair-50979
Beautiful people tend to believe that life is fundamentally fair and just, according to new research conducted with college students.

The study, published in the journal Psychological Reports, examined the relationship between physical attractiveness and belief in a just world, meaning the belief that people get what they deserve and deserve what they get.
deny all you want, science has spoken.
“I have an important message to deliver to all the cute people all over the world. If you're out there and you're cute, maybe you're beautiful. I just want to tell you somethin' — there's more of us UGLY MOTHERFUCKERS than you are, hey-y, so watch out.”
― Frank Zappa
Privilege does exist..... that said, you have to trammel it with truth. Beautiful people, like white people, have 'privilege' because non-beautiful and non-white people assign them that privilege - the privileged don't take it for themselves. They gain in margin because of a general consensus of everyone, spiked with more than a dollop of resentment....'>......
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
Simple Minded

Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by Simple Minded »

Well said MFF.

As I have said before, the internet allows us to assign privilege or blame at an unprecedented rate. Social Media is like adding a turbocharger to one's imagination! Self-esteem in aisle one, or self-loathing in aisle two. Both are yours free of charge. We never close!

Or maybe it is more like a magnifying mirror, you can focus on your zits or your great hair, it's your choice.

How would possibly Fred know if a third party observer assigns the trait of being "more attractive" to himself or his closest companion/competitor? if Fred loses, than racism, sexism, ________-o-phobia, etc. are ready made explanations.

All that said, personally, I will be resentful as hell if someone tries to trammel with truth the privilege I assigned to myself, since no one else would. I worked hard to build this mental delusion, and it is mine! Mine! Mine! Mine! All mine!

Contrary to what former POTUS O said, some things all built by individuals.
noddy
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by noddy »

dance little pretties, dance. :P~~~~
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
noddy wrote:the cat is out of the bag now mr "simple minded" .. your dastardly worldview has been exposed.

http://www.psypost.org/2018/03/good-loo ... fair-50979
Beautiful people tend to believe that life is fundamentally fair and just, according to new research conducted with college students.

The study, published in the journal Psychological Reports, examined the relationship between physical attractiveness and belief in a just world, meaning the belief that people get what they deserve and deserve what they get.
deny all you want, science has spoken.
“I have an important message to deliver to all the cute people all over the world. If you're out there and you're cute, maybe you're beautiful. I just want to tell you somethin' — there's more of us UGLY MOTHERFUCKERS than you are, hey-y, so watch out.”
― Frank Zappa
Privilege does exist..... that said, you have to trammel it with truth. Beautiful people, like white people, have 'privilege' because non-beautiful and non-white people assign them that privilege - the privileged don't take it for themselves. They gain in margin because of a general consensus of everyone, spiked with more than a dollop of resentment....'>......
This is the rub of it...in a sense....

It's an assault on majority rule. Checking privilege is an evasive shorthand for those who wish to rid ourselves of majority consensus and be ruled- politically, morally, aesthetically, whathaveyou- by a true believing/all knowing/all righteous minority claiming all legitimacy and authenticity (the watchword that always comes up with this sort of pose) to themselves.

it's anti-liberal, it's anti-democratic and it's anti-Enlightenment.

Is it any wonder this has brought about a consensus from disparate groups that shouldn't really have anything in common like for example ethno-supremcists, by-any-means communists and upper middle class feminists?

Why, after the revolution, they'll be in charge, as nature intended.
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

but it is not really postmodern- as we are western-focused here- the people leading the charge are the same sons and daughters of the imperialists and racists and eugenicists and misogynists (and so on) from yesteryear- content to learn nothing from the past, they've just lost their nerve.

The appropriation ('cause that's what it is) of French postmodernism (a continuation of phenomenalism, itself a response to George Berkeley) is a pose to express their own self-disgust. And so they set out to teach everyone to despise and become indifferent to themselves and their own futures.
noddy
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Re: Postmodernism. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

Post by noddy »

i see it as a reaction to classic WASP beliefs and the need to render them all as lies from the past - i suspect the other explanations are probably more relevant.

the love of idealized village communities with everyone having a place and everyone in their place is such a strong part of their desire.

all that nasty stress of building things for yourself just goes away in the more organised world of their dreams and they never see themselves being allocated the toilet cleaners job, that will obviously be *some demographic they dont like*

the flipside of all this however is some rather blunt realities of the modern world - 1 billion (or so) workers is plenty to produce all the stuff you can imagine (tm) and atleast 50% of modern western economies is "made up jobs" created and/or funded by government.

billions upon billions of folks are clammering for these jobs and in places like china or india they are getting the education threshold to attain them - maybe not so much so in the ghettos of south america or africa.

their is a huge motherfucking explosion of bitterness, desperation, jealousy, whateveryawanttocallit thats coming down the pipe no matter what.

even if you think the pure libertarian market will find a way in the long run, the short run isnt going to be pretty.
Last edited by noddy on Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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