Work: What is it good for?

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Enki
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Enki »

noddy wrote:well, i did read it and the exact details where opaque to me and triggered memories of my self directed education experience at a young age.

making things more inspirational is a good idea and im not knocking it, but im still suspicious its going to work on the types that wanted to do manual labouring or manufacturing when they grow up.. it will be much better for the geekier ones who come from backgrounds or have personalities that do suit the modern curriculum.
Since it allows for people to focus on the things they want to focus on, it would definitely help the laborers and manufacturers. Tablet PCs are not just for geeks anymore, that's kind of a trope of the late 90s that doesn't bear any resemblance to the culture now. Auto Mechanics have iPads too. Also, imagine if your course of study was a multimedia app that had you assembling the parts of an engine?

One of the big mistakes I think people make is this idea that 'not everybody is an intellectual'. This I think is inherently false. What's more true is that not everyone learns by the format of learning styles that academics who have come to dominate pedagogy have put into place. If you want someone to learn quickly, you should be able to approach the lesson from as many sensory formats as possible. A lecture is literally one of the least effective teaching methods there is. However, if you can have teaching in an auditory, visual and kinesthetic manner, the kids will get it much better. One of the most effective anatomy classes I had was a two part class with a teacher who was able to draw the anatomy really well and show the connections as a series of angles. Then the second part of the class was called, 'palpation', which was finding those same bony landmarks that he drew by touch. So listening to his lecture was auditory, watching him draw was visual, and touching was kinesthetic. We would also draw with watercolor markers on people's bodies the outlines of bones and circle bony landmarks or draw the muscle, that sort of thing.

Give a health class THIS: http://zygotebody.com/ and they will learn faster than any health class in history.
Last edited by Enki on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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noddy
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by noddy »

Enki wrote:
noddy wrote:well, i did read it and the exact details where opaque to me and triggered memories of my self directed education experience at a young age.

making things more inspirational is a good idea and im not knocking it, but im still suspicious its going to work on the types that wanted to do manual labouring or manufacturing when they grow up.. it will be much better for the geekier ones who come from backgrounds or have personalities that do suit the modern curriculum.
Since it allows for people to focus on the things they want to focus on, it would definitely help the laborers and manufacturers. Tablet PCs are not just for geeks anymore, that's kind of a trope of the late 90s that doesn't bear any resemblance to the culture now. Auto Mechanics have iPads too. Also, imagine if your course of study was a multimedia app that had you assembling the parts of an engine?
automechanics tend to enjoy cars and love getting greasy on em... wouldnt get too carried away... sure the manuals can come on tablets but thats neither here nor there to my mind.
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Enki
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Enki »

noddy wrote:automechanics tend to enjoy cars and love getting greasy on em... wouldnt get too carried away... sure the manuals can come on tablets but thats neither here nor there to my mind.
My school had an autoshop. Not all schools have them. So you're making a fundamental error here in thinking that this would preclude kids having access to the autoshop. The ipad is meant to replace a TEXTBOOK, it's not meant to replace anything else. So if you are talking about it replacing anything but a textbook then that's not what I am talking about. The fact is, most schools do not have the resources for an auto shop. So my system would allow those auto geeks to learn about auto mechanic work at a school that doesn't have an auto shop, whereas under the current regime, they just can't study that AT ALL. So you're not talking about replacing something that is already available, we're talking about giving them access to a discipline they wouldn't have access to. I am pretty sure there isn't a single HS in New York City that has an autoshop.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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noddy
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by noddy »

must say that as i get older and less flexable the real thing with the modern world is flexability.

my biggest problem with modern education is early specialization, it has been stupid for a long time to pick a career so early and then specializing in later high school and then more so in uni... picking a career while at school is absurd.

I would want highschool to maintain the generalized approach of primary school and then much of university replaced with short courses and on the job training.
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Juggernaut Nihilism
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Endovelico wrote:As a professor I try to do the following:

1. Introduce the subject.
2. Supply as much relevant literature as I can.
3. Summarize the different views existing on the subject.
4. Invite the students to think critically using as many different views as possible.
5. Require students to produce some critical work on any aspect of the subject.
e:
No offense, but if that is what you do then you're grossly overpaid, whatever your salary might be.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
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Enki
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Enki »

noddy wrote:must say that as i get older and less flexable the real thing with the modern world is flexability.

my biggest problem with modern education is early specialization, it has been stupid for a long time to pick a career so early and then specializing in later high school and then more so in uni... picking a career while at school is absurd.
We don't do that here in the US. Though I admit that taking Yearbook and Graphic Design as electives in HS really were the most applicable to career paths I took since I ended up doing pre-press and I supported a Desktop Publishing environment as an IT Professional.
I would want highschool to maintain the generalized approach of primary school and then much of university replaced with short courses and on the job training.
Agree. This system is meant to accelerate the learning of the core curriculum so that people have more time to explore specialization later.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by noddy »

kids cant do critical thinking, they dont have the life experience for it.

they can do too cool for school contraryness and end up anti everything quite easily though, which is a close enough for many it seems.

got that off my shoulders :P
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Enki
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Enki »

noddy wrote:kids cant do critical thinking, they dont have the life experience for it.

they can do too cool for school contraryness and end up anti everything quite easily though, which is a close enough for many it seems.
Too cool for school contrariness is a result of authoritarian boredom pedagogy. Schools that have had assisted self-study have shown that kids get engaged with the subject matter on a very deep level.
got that off my shoulders :P
Well you are projecting the results of the current system of obsolete pedagogy onto other ideas. I really do not believe that this sort of contrariness is a natural prerogative of children, I think it's a reaction to spending a huge portion of their childhood bored to tears.

I say this as a kid who was a disruptive pain in the ass in school and a better student than most of the people who sat there quietly.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by noddy »

yeh well, this cuts through all levels of society then, not just schools.

i dont do much work for governments because they only rarely employ for portfolio and experience and demand university degrees for what i consider infantile tasks, luckily for me, private industry is almost the opposite.

so, a flexable, assisted self education system is a wonderful goal but the schools are but a sympton as much as a cause.

edit:

and i still think critical thinking requires life experience, otherwise its just creativity and ideas, which are great things in themselves but for to me to consider them critical thinking they have to be able to be produced and made real, and thats where the real critical thinking starts and this brings me to an absurd thought in regards child labour and western views on productive children o_O
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Enki
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Enki »

noddy wrote:yeh well, this cuts through all levels of society then, not just schools.

i dont do much work for governments because they only rarely employ for portfolio and experience and demand university degrees for what i consider infantile tasks, luckily for me, private industry is almost the opposite.

so, a flexable, assisted self education system is a wonderful goal but the schools are but a sympton as much as a cause.
Well yes. Schools have been built around pumping out good bureaucrats and workers.
and i still think critical thinking requires life experience, otherwise its just creativity and ideas, which are great things in themselves but for to me to consider them critical thinking they have to be able to be produced and made real, and thats where the real critical thinking starts and this brings me to an absurd thought in regards child labour and western views on productive children o_O
I think it depends on what kind of labor the children are being put toward. I generally agree that it would be good if children were able to work in environments and do non-dangerous tasks.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Endovelico
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Endovelico »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:As a professor I try to do the following:

1. Introduce the subject.
2. Supply as much relevant literature as I can.
3. Summarize the different views existing on the subject.
4. Invite the students to think critically using as many different views as possible.
5. Require students to produce some critical work on any aspect of the subject.
[6. Any attempt by the students to replace critical thinking with ideology will be severely punished...]
No offense, but if that is what you do then you're grossly overpaid, whatever your salary might be.
You would be surprised at the level of knowledge and the capacity to think creatively my students acquire. Mind you, I'm teaching social sciences, not mathematics. So I can tell them that if they are only interested in facts, they should buy a few books and skip classes. But if they want to learn thinking about the subject under study and being constructively critical, then I would be only too happy to assist them. But I suppose you belong to that generation of students who spent their time learning what other people thought, being proficient at quoting other people's ideas, and not being trained in using your own mind. Good for Trivial Pursuit, but not for much else...
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Enki
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Enki »

Endovelico wrote:
Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:As a professor I try to do the following:

1. Introduce the subject.
2. Supply as much relevant literature as I can.
3. Summarize the different views existing on the subject.
4. Invite the students to think critically using as many different views as possible.
5. Require students to produce some critical work on any aspect of the subject.
[6. Any attempt by the students to replace critical thinking with ideology will be severely punished...]
No offense, but if that is what you do then you're grossly overpaid, whatever your salary might be.
You would be surprised at the level of knowledge and the capacity to think creatively my students acquire. Mind you, I'm teaching social sciences, not mathematics. So I can tell them that if they are only interested in facts, they should buy a few books and skip classes. But if they want to learn thinking about the subject under study and being constructively critical, then I would be only too happy to assist them. But I suppose you belong to that generation of students who spent their time learning what other people thought, being proficient at quoting other people's ideas, and not being trained in using your own mind. Good for Trivial Pursuit, but not for much else...
LOL, Juggernaut Nihilism obviously learned to think critically.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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Endovelico
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Endovelico »

Enki wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:As a professor I try to do the following:

1. Introduce the subject.
2. Supply as much relevant literature as I can.
3. Summarize the different views existing on the subject.
4. Invite the students to think critically using as many different views as possible.
5. Require students to produce some critical work on any aspect of the subject.
[6. Any attempt by the students to replace critical thinking with ideology will be severely punished...]
No offense, but if that is what you do then you're grossly overpaid, whatever your salary might be.
You would be surprised at the level of knowledge and the capacity to think creatively my students acquire. Mind you, I'm teaching social sciences, not mathematics. So I can tell them that if they are only interested in facts, they should buy a few books and skip classes. But if they want to learn thinking about the subject under study and being constructively critical, then I would be only too happy to assist them. But I suppose you belong to that generation of students who spent their time learning what other people thought, being proficient at quoting other people's ideas, and not being trained in using your own mind. Good for Trivial Pursuit, but not for much else...
LOL, Juggernaut Nihilism obviously learned to think critically.
Either he learned it after college, or else he had professors who did very much what I said I did... But if that's the case then I don't see why he was so critical of my approach...
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Ibrahim »

Enki wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:As a professor I try to do the following:

1. Introduce the subject.
2. Supply as much relevant literature as I can.
3. Summarize the different views existing on the subject.
4. Invite the students to think critically using as many different views as possible.
5. Require students to produce some critical work on any aspect of the subject.
[6. Any attempt by the students to replace critical thinking with ideology will be severely punished...]
No offense, but if that is what you do then you're grossly overpaid, whatever your salary might be.
You would be surprised at the level of knowledge and the capacity to think creatively my students acquire. Mind you, I'm teaching social sciences, not mathematics. So I can tell them that if they are only interested in facts, they should buy a few books and skip classes. But if they want to learn thinking about the subject under study and being constructively critical, then I would be only too happy to assist them. But I suppose you belong to that generation of students who spent their time learning what other people thought, being proficient at quoting other people's ideas, and not being trained in using your own mind. Good for Trivial Pursuit, but not for much else...
LOL, Juggernaut Nihilism obviously learned to think critically.
Rather stereotypical reflexive anti-intellectualism, really.
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Public education . . decision-making . .

Post by Marcus »

Printed in this morning's paper:
Should I drink this Red Bull Special?

An epidemic that would drive nutritionists crazy has hit Soldotna High School, called the Red Bull Special. A deluxe frozen drink that’s filled with sugar and caffeine, it is a teenager’s dream food. As the bell rings each morning, students hustle to grab a seat, their morning pick-me-up in hand. Teens seem to follow their peers when they make decisions, even ones as simple as what to drink.

When teens make poor decisions, blame is often pointed at their friends. Friends during adolescent years are the most influential people in a teen’s life.

Peer pressure is almost always painted in a bad light, but it also has the power to impact a teenager strongly for good. Teenagers emulate their peers in their quest to find out who they are. Seeking out good friends should be a high priority for youth because it directly impacts their success in life.

Last spring it was time to pick classes for our soon approaching sophomore year.

Discussing scheduling options with my friends, I found myself influenced to register for challenging courses so that I would keep up with the expectation of excellence that my peers had set.

Teenagers are standing at the crossroads between childhood and the life of an adult. Looking to their friends, teens search for insight of which path to tread. They ask, ‘Will those girls like me more if I wear those bedazzled winter boots?’ ‘Is getting better grades as simple as drinking a whipped cream topped Red Bull Special in the morning?’ ‘If I go over and speak to that nerd in my math class, will I be labeled likewise, or will I be seen as a trendsetter?’

The other day I walked out the front door with a tacky yellow shirt on.

My mom assured me that I looked great, but upon arriving at school, my friends quickly informed me otherwise. I noticed that my friends had more influence on what I thought about myself than even my parents did. For most teenagers, their friends’ opinions are of prime importance, influencing everything from what they wear, to where they apply to college.

Often people are lazy and become friends with the first people who will accept them. It is so vital to actively seek out those who are most like the person we want to become. Making a conscious decision to find friends who will help me reach my potential has been one of the best decisions of my life. I know I can trust their advice and follow their examples. Their morals are high, ambitions strong, and they consistently lead me in the right direction.

At this crossroads it’s difficult to know which path to choose. Using the guidance of my friends, I know I’m not making my decisions alone. I can walk bravely into class, empty-handed without my Red Bull, giving strength to my friends in return. (emphasis added)
John Taylor Gatto got it right . . .
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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Juggernaut Nihilism
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Ibrahim wrote:
Enki wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:As a professor I try to do the following:

1. Introduce the subject.
2. Supply as much relevant literature as I can.
3. Summarize the different views existing on the subject.
4. Invite the students to think critically using as many different views as possible.
5. Require students to produce some critical work on any aspect of the subject.
[6. Any attempt by the students to replace critical thinking with ideology will be severely punished...]
No offense, but if that is what you do then you're grossly overpaid, whatever your salary might be.
You would be surprised at the level of knowledge and the capacity to think creatively my students acquire. Mind you, I'm teaching social sciences, not mathematics. So I can tell them that if they are only interested in facts, they should buy a few books and skip classes. But if they want to learn thinking about the subject under study and being constructively critical, then I would be only too happy to assist them. But I suppose you belong to that generation of students who spent their time learning what other people thought, being proficient at quoting other people's ideas, and not being trained in using your own mind. Good for Trivial Pursuit, but not for much else...
LOL, Juggernaut Nihilism obviously learned to think critically.
Rather stereotypical reflexive anti-intellectualism, really.
As opposed to you, who genuinely surprises us with an unanticipated perspective every time you post.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Endovelico wrote:
Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:As a professor I try to do the following:

1. Introduce the subject.
2. Supply as much relevant literature as I can.
3. Summarize the different views existing on the subject.
4. Invite the students to think critically using as many different views as possible.
5. Require students to produce some critical work on any aspect of the subject.
[6. Any attempt by the students to replace critical thinking with ideology will be severely punished...]
No offense, but if that is what you do then you're grossly overpaid, whatever your salary might be.
You would be surprised at the level of knowledge and the capacity to think creatively my students acquire. Mind you, I'm teaching social sciences, not mathematics. So I can tell them that if they are only interested in facts, they should buy a few books and skip classes. But if they want to learn thinking about the subject under study and being constructively critical, then I would be only too happy to assist them. But I suppose you belong to that generation of students who spent their time learning what other people thought, being proficient at quoting other people's ideas, and not being trained in using your own mind. Good for Trivial Pursuit, but not for much else...
I've found this works well in small classes and the effectiveness really depends on how much contact the teacher has with the students. The good ones are at the door when office hours begin, and more gets taught there than in the classroom.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Taboo
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Re: Work: What is it good for?

Post by Taboo »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:As a professor I try to do the following:

1. Introduce the subject.
2. Supply as much relevant literature as I can.
3. Summarize the different views existing on the subject.
4. Invite the students to think critically using as many different views as possible.
5. Require students to produce some critical work on any aspect of the subject.
e:
No offense, but if that is what you do then you're grossly overpaid, whatever your salary might be.
I am also a professor, and I'd like JN to elaborate on that a bit. That one line dismissal seems a bit facile, absent judicious criticism.

My experience (and I've taught by now in several countries) is that by the time they reach university (or even Master's level courses - which is what i teach now) most students have had remarkably little experience with critical thinking. Many think that regurgitating semidigested material is what learning is all about - no wonder they think it's boring. Returning alumni often tell me that the critical thinking skill they learned in my class were infinitely more valuable than the course material itself. I think most schools and universities do a woeful job teaching clear thinking, clear expression and analytic capabilities. Also, some students are simply not interested in acquiring such skills.
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