White privilege

[Azrael]

I believe that the term "white privilege" has done more harm than good for race relations and issues of social justice.

The term "white privilege" can be used for instances such as how, in some neighborhoods, if you're obeying the law and minding your own business, you're unlikely to get hassled by the cops if you're white, while if you're black, you're much more likely to get hassled.

However, we ought to just say that the cops are being racist. To say that it is "white privilege", implies that some "privilege" has been given to every white person when blacks are treated unfairly. This is absurd. Nothing has been given to me when dignity has been taken from a black person. It was not done for my benefit. I do not approve of it. And certainly it is not a privilege to be treated with dignity. Everyone should be treated that way. To have a privilege is to be given something that one does not deserve.

If I am treated with dignity and respect, that isn't something I have because I have taken it from a black person. There is no fixed amount of "dignity and respect". It isn't some zero sum game. If we treat each other with dignity and respect, there will be more of it for everyone.

The sense that something has been stolen from black people for the benefit of every white person may contribute to the high rate of violence, including rape and murder, of black people against white people. Ask Reginald Denny if he was privileged because of his race when he was beaten to the point of brain damage and permanent disability on that street corner. On the contrary, being white at that point in time was a curse, as he probably would not have been harmed had he been black. Over the last forty years, far more whites have been raped or murdered by blacks than the other way around. The use of the term "white privilege" may be used as a justification for racism against white people.

Let's focus on individuals. I can't control other white people and I don't see all black people as guilty when a black individual does something wrong. There are individuals who are racist. There are individuals who do wrong. There are individuals who do right, such as standing up for the rights of others even when it is unpopular or dangerous.

Assuming that someone is racist because of the color of their skin is racist.

There are regions of the country where people tend to be more racist than other regions. So, it is proper that the Voting Rights Act gives greater scrutiny to election-related activities in those areas. However, even if someone is from one of those more racist regions, that does not prove that they personally are racist and it is prejudiced to hold what region of the country they're from against them.

* Note: While I'm not 100% white (but then, who is?), people can't tell by looking. I'm as white as the typical white person in America.

[Ibrahim]

Its not a great term, but what it is trying to describe is %100 accurate. White people deal with far less unprovoked hassle than non-white people in America. Doesn't necessarily mean that one should coin a phrase and use it a lot, but it is an observable phenomena.

Consider: white conservatives whine constantly about being accused of racism and misogyny. Its their great burden and unfair discrimination against them. Meanwhile black Americans can be murdered by the police at any time with relative impunity, and even if a random citizen murders a black person half of the country will celebrate it. So there is something there, even if we shouldn't call it "white privilege."

[Azrael]

Its not a great term, but what it is trying to describe is %100 accurate.

I agree. What they're describing is accurate; but they have to come up with a better term.

The term itself fosters an attitude that some races gain from racism while other races are hurt, when in fact all racial groups are hurt. The term is also misleading in that it gives the sense that white people feel privileged to live in a racist society, while many white people feel horrible about it. Implying that whites are incapable of empathy is to deny them of basic humanity.

White people deal with far less unprovoked hassle than non-white people in America. Doesn't necessarily mean that one should coin a phrase and use it a lot, but it is an observable phenomena.

Consider: white conservatives whine constantly about being accused of racism and misogyny. Its their great burden and unfair discrimination against them. Meanwhile black Americans can be murdered by the police at any time with relative impunity, and even if a random citizen murders a black person half of the country will celebrate it. So there is something there, even if we shouldn't call it "white privilege."

True. What do you think would be a better term?

[Nonc Hilaire]

The term white privilege corresponds roughly to the philosophical term "privilege of the normal case". It means the white race is the common standard for comparison of race in America, which is true.

I think Azrael is right, but reads more into the concept than is really there.

[Ibrahim]

I can't think of any better terms because everything racial is so charged. As we saw at CPAC, racism is viewed by many as a branding problem rather than a reality, and still others (well, that one guy) don't see the problem with something like segregation and don't think the word racism ever applies since racial differences are just a fact.

I tend to think of class a more important than race in many areas, but in America the overlap so much that the inevitable case of the white American who is far enough down the economic ladder so as to receive none of the expected "benefits" to his ethnic identity is easily overlooked.


I'm receptive to this all really being the "privilege of the normal case" but what is interesting is that race allows a larger segment of the population ("whites") to be part of a privileged group which, based strictly on economics, education, or influence, would really only include the shrinking middle class, which is also multi-ethnic.

[noddy]

its not wrong to say that being part of the right circles makes life easier and that in the west the right circles are typically white - but its wrong headed to suggest that being white puts you in the right circles.

even if they did full proactive statistics based affirmative action that made sure the correct percentages of each skin colour made it into the right circles it would still be largely crap for everyone else who didnt have the magic combination of clothes,education and opinions that make one palatable to the "right circles".

as such, i think its best to focus on reducing the power of the elites as a whole for the benefit of all the small people than worrying too much about skin colours.

[Ibrahim]

its not wrong to say that being part of the right circles makes life easier and that in the west the right circles are typically white - but its wrong headed to suggest that being white puts you in the right circles.

It makes you less likely to be murdered with impunity by the police, or near-impunity by gun nuts. I do agree that it isn't an automatic path to material success or social prominence, as a quick drive through the rural USA will prove to anyone.

[noddy]

its not wrong to say that being part of the right circles makes life easier and that in the west the right circles are typically white - but its wrong headed to suggest that being white puts you in the right circles.

It makes you less likely to be murdered with impunity by the police, or near-impunity by gun nuts.

i dont know about this - while ive seen racist cops my anecdotal experience is just that noone notices or cares when a rough looking whit(ish) boy is bashed or killed. in my group the aboriginal kids didnt get it anyworse than the rest of us and the ones that got off easy were the gentrified ones with a passive demeanour and nice clothes - typically asian or educated white.

ive been on the wrong end of a grumpy cop fist and so have nearly all my teenage acquaintances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ki ... tates_2013

shame this list doesnt have a neat list of identity politics tags, certainly alot of dead white boy names that didnt make the media, including ones shot for what appears dubious reasons.

[Ibrahim]

I did say "less likely" and added previously that the police were also likely to get away with whatever they want to people sufficiently far down on the economic ladder regardless of ethnicity.

I can't infer much from the wiki list based on the names alone. I maintain that "being white" makes you less prone to be stopped by the police, and less likely to be subjected to the use of force by the police. Certainly not that it makes you immune, and all minorities are gunned down on sight.

In some places, say Zimbabwe, the opposite is clearly true, but we are talking about North America (or I thought we were). I don't know what the deal is in Australia, but would you really have an easier time of it if you were an Aboriginal or East Asian? I honestly don't know but my assumption based on Canada and the US is that it would not.

[noddy]

just trying to maintain some perspective and explain why i think white privelege is a broken concept that causes as many problems as it fixes.

in all the billions of interactions of millions of people in america its really absurd to hilight some based on race.. which isnt to say racial crap isnt a part of it but racial crap is but a subset of all the crappy prejudices.

[Ibrahim]

just trying to maintain some perspective and explain why i think white privelege is a broken concept that causes as many problems as it fixes.

I don't think it fixes any! Its just a term for a thing that happens, and probably not even a good term.

in all the billions of interactions of millions of people in america its really absurd to hilight some based on race.. which isnt to say racial crap isnt a part of it but racial crap is but a subset of all the crappy prejudices.

Its a bigger issue in the US than most places. Perhaps no Western nation is more divided along racial lines in measurable ways.

[Enki]

White Privilege while often used as a baton to beat down white people for perceived injustices, is not really saying that your rights are actually privileges of your skin color. What white privilege really is, is the inability to perceive what it is like to be afraid to walk down the street, to fear cops more than criminals, etc... White privilege is not the privilege to not be harassed by cops, it is the privilege to not recognize what it's like to be harassed by cops.

[Mr. Perfect]

White Privilege is a term that by coming into existence makes the issue it attempts to address intractable. Often this is the case with leftist thinking.

[Hoosiernorm]

I don't know. I am the only driver at my terminal that has a black running partner. I bid the run based on the hours and the truck not having a camera in it. It's odd some of the questions my coworker Julian asks me.

"What are the other guys talking about?"
"Do you get a chance to talk to any other drivers?"
"Dude your like my 5th partner in five months!"

It's odd to speak to a man who feels like an outsider at his own terminal and is always weary of me leaving things in the truck. "I didn't want it to turn up missing and have you think I stole it!" almost made me laugh. Dude you are horrible about locking the damn doors and leaving the windows cracked! I would be pissed at you for something turning up missing but not because I thought you took it! Did I mention he leaves the windows cracked after he gets out because a driver complained that it smelled in there after he got done with a run and it made him really self conscious. I asked him how many cigars he smoked a day because it always smells like stogies in there when I get in. His response was "You think they were talking about my smoking?!" It's been eye opening to have a partner that is self conscious that he is black, I don't know what it would even be like.

[Enki]

White Privilege is a term that by coming into existence makes the issue it attempts to address intractable. Often this is the case with leftist thinking.

I completely agree with you on this one.

It is almost an admission that white people are supreme in actual fact. I had a black nationalist activist basically make this argument. I find the notion incredibly disturbing.

[Ibrahim]

It is almost an admission that white people are supreme in actual fact. I had a black nationalist activist basically make this argument. I find the notion incredibly disturbing.

I don't see how it means that at all. All it does is acknowledge the existence of institutionalized racism.

If pointing out the existence of institutionalized racism were itself a justification of said racism then I don't think the career's of Gandhi or Desmond Tutu would have proceeded quite as they did.

[noddy]

It is almost an admission that white people are supreme in actual fact. I had a black nationalist activist basically make this argument. I find the notion incredibly disturbing.

I don't see how it means that at all. All it does is acknowledge the existence of institutionalized racism.

If pointing out the existence of institutionalized racism were itself a justification of said racism then I don't think the career's of Gandhi or Desmond Tutu would have proceeded quite as they did.

these aspects are rendered meaningless by comparison to any other country, we are back at good cultural xenophobia which is hardly unique to any skin colour.

gandhi and tutu are actually different anyway, they represent oppressed locals under external imperialism and now that the whites are gone their countries are slipping into good ole hindu privelage and zulu privelage systems as per the norm.

i just consider it trite to say whites do better in white countries.. its like .. ermm. yeh..

[Ibrahim]

It is almost an admission that white people are supreme in actual fact. I had a black nationalist activist basically make this argument. I find the notion incredibly disturbing.

I don't see how it means that at all. All it does is acknowledge the existence of institutionalized racism.

If pointing out the existence of institutionalized racism were itself a justification of said racism then I don't think the career's of Gandhi or Desmond Tutu would have proceeded quite as they did.

these aspects are rendered meaningless by comparison to any other country, we are back at good cultural xenophobia which is hardly unique to any skin colour.

gandhi and tutu are actually different anyway, they represent oppressed locals under external imperialism and now that the whites are gone their countries are slipping into good ole hindu privelage and zulu privelage systems as per the norm.

i just consider it trite to say whites do better in white countries.. its like .. ermm. yeh..

Ok, so it should be no big deal to point out then.

[noddy]

It is almost an admission that white people are supreme in actual fact. I had a black nationalist activist basically make this argument. I find the notion incredibly disturbing.

I don't see how it means that at all. All it does is acknowledge the existence of institutionalized racism.

If pointing out the existence of institutionalized racism were itself a justification of said racism then I don't think the career's of Gandhi or Desmond Tutu would have proceeded quite as they did.

these aspects are rendered meaningless by comparison to any other country, we are back at good cultural xenophobia which is hardly unique to any skin colour.

gandhi and tutu are actually different anyway, they represent oppressed locals under external imperialism and now that the whites are gone their countries are slipping into good ole hindu privelage and zulu privelage systems as per the norm.

i just consider it trite to say whites do better in white countries.. its like .. ermm. yeh..

Ok, so it should be no big deal to point out then.

aah but concepts should be as accurate as possible with as little confusion as possible .. in this case, the "white" bit clouds the issue with all sorts of nonsense like the superiority of whites which is patently absurd from all angles.. the anglo whites are recent players in this game and their history has them being on the recieving end of it a lot longer than the giving end.. they accidently inherited the supremecy when the spanish navy cocked up against lizzie.

imperialism and cultural xenophobia are the real issues and i consider it best to focus on the specific behaviours rather than lazy stereotypes.

[Ibrahim]

It is almost an admission that white people are supreme in actual fact. I had a black nationalist activist basically make this argument. I find the notion incredibly disturbing.

I don't see how it means that at all. All it does is acknowledge the existence of institutionalized racism.

If pointing out the existence of institutionalized racism were itself a justification of said racism then I don't think the career's of Gandhi or Desmond Tutu would have proceeded quite as they did.

these aspects are rendered meaningless by comparison to any other country, we are back at good cultural xenophobia which is hardly unique to any skin colour.

gandhi and tutu are actually different anyway, they represent oppressed locals under external imperialism and now that the whites are gone their countries are slipping into good ole hindu privelage and zulu privelage systems as per the norm.

i just consider it trite to say whites do better in white countries.. its like .. ermm. yeh..

Ok, so it should be no big deal to point out then.

aah but concepts should be as accurate as possible with as little confusion as possible .. in this case, the "white" bit clouds the issue with all sorts of nonsense like the superiority of whites which is patently absurd from all angles.. the anglo whites are recent players in this game and their history has them being on the recieving end of it a lot longer than the giving end.. they accidently inherited the supremecy when the spanish navy cocked up against lizzie.

imperialism and cultural xenophobia are the real issues and i consider it best to focus on the specific behaviours rather than lazy stereotypes.

Its certainly contextual. In the US its "white privilege," in China it'd be "Han privilege" or something. I understood it to refer to the net effect of a lot of small decisions, and also the effects that such might have on individual perception. E.g. a middle class white professional boasting that they have never had a problem with the police and don't understand why people criticize the police simply has a different perspective on that matter than a black teen. More crucially to the concept of "white privilege," the white professional might not be aware of how interactions with the police can go differently for minorities, though minorities are usually aware that whites tend to get a better deal than they do.

The whole thing breaks down when you get to the economic extremes. Its true that people don't see race if you are very wealthy or very poor. White homeless people don't enjoy much in the way of "white privilege."

[Enki]

I read a really good article about how white people give out jobs and favors within their networks. Since their networks are predominantly white, those opportunities go predominantly to white people.

The only remedy for that is commingling.

[Simple Minded]

Good thread.....

I find the whole concept of group identity to be mysterious, confusing, humorous, and fascinating. Why people choose to define themselves by skin color, religion, nationality, possessions, activities, etc. rather than I am "fred" is beyond me. Some inner emptiness? Desire for advantage? Cammeraderie?

Everything gets real messy when people desire to classify others, or to be known themselves by their herd identity.

I think most of one's self-identity (or desire to pigeon hole others) has to do with your parent's habits or the zeitgeist in which you spent your first 15 years.

Projection is often misconstrued as perception.

It would be fascinating to get two actors to stage an argument about sports, and as the actors varied in appearance, male-female, white-black-brown, rich-poor costumes, religious costumes, political costumes, etc. to note what percentage of the population could ignore any sign of context and merely forcus on the appearance as proof of racism, sexism, wealth/religious/political discrimination.

Nonc makes a great point about what is percieved as "normal." Manners often play a huge role. I expect most "normal people" have similar reactions towards stangers, until some commonly known gesture or facial expression indicates friend or foe according to the culture of the observer.

I know a lot of assholes who often think the other people don't get them a fair shake. Anytime you tell them "If you would stop being such an asshole, and quit assuming the worst, you'd find people are a lot nicer than your preconceived notions! And they would treat you better!" they just get mad. Few enjoy being told they have made the bed they are laying in.

On the side, due to repetition and association, it is easier to understand why cops and lawyers may have a dim view of humans in general.

None of which is to say discrimination or racism does not exist.

The video tinker posted of the professor who was lecturing at UVa was perhaps the best example I have ever seen!!! Even while attempting a lecture on open mindedness, he could not help but classify people into us and them. He then proceeded to claim that those who split people into groups are small minded, and the fact that "the other group" was different than us was proof of "our" superiority.

Damn people....... they're all like that!!!

[Simple Minded]

Actually Azrael,

I did experience White Priviledge in the extreme at one point in my life! In my younger days I was a toehead and in the early 1980s, I was lucky enough to get 3 months work in the Saudia Arabian oil fields in the summer time.

At first I couldn't figure out what was going on. I told co-workers I felt like a black guy at a Ku Klux Klan meeting or a white guy at a Black Panthers meeting.

With typical Merikan sensitivity, they splained "Its you hair you durian!!! All the Saudi guys want to sleep with you!" Evidently, strutting around Saudia Arabia with shoulder length platinum blonde hair makes you stand out. Who knew?

The Saudis treated me like a god! Not Allah, one of the other ones.....

They treated me much better than they treated my fellow Merikans of Mediterranian or Caribbean descent. I guess they looked too much like run of the mill Saudis......

Naturally, like all shallow blondes, I exploited the situation..

[Mr. Perfect]

Someone tell Ibs the problem with "white privilege" is that go up to any white and ask them if they feel privileged. It has a long record now of being a non-starter.

If you were to come up with something along the lines of "blacks are in trouble, what can we do" or something you may get more mileage. However, I do not see this ever coming from the left because they depend on division, exploitation, and subjugation in order to get votes, and the right gets nuked on race no matter what we do even though we are 95% correct on race issues (compared to Democrat 0%). As such, the Obama dynamic of whites soaring to greater heights while blacks continue to free fall will continue until the Lord comes.

[monster_gardener]

Someone tell Ibs the problem with "white privilege" is that go up to any white and ask them if they feel privileged. It has a long record now of being a non-starter.

If you were to come up with something along the lines of "blacks are in trouble, what can we do" or something you may get more mileage. However, I do not see this ever coming from the left because they depend on division, exploitation, and subjugation in order to get votes, and the right gets nuked on race no matter what we do even though we are 95% correct on race issues (compared to Democrat 0%). As such, the Obama dynamic of whites soaring to greater heights while blacks continue to free fall will continue until the Lord comes.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Mr. Perfect.

Someone tell Ibs the problem with "white privilege" is that go up to any white and ask them if they feel privileged. It has a long record now of being a non-starter.

If you were to come up with something along the lines of "blacks are in trouble, what can we do" or something you may get more mileage.

Seconded.