White privilege

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Marcus
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Re: White privilege

Post by Marcus »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Someone tell Ibs . .
Now that's funny . . :lol:
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
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Ibrahim
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Re: White privilege

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:Now that's funny . .
*posts "my logic is ironclad" for 8 pages*
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Someone tell Ibs . .

Post by monster_gardener »

Marcus wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Someone tell Ibs . .
Now that's funny . . :lol:
Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Marcus.

Seconded ;) :) :D :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Marcus
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Re: Someone tell Ibs . .

Post by Marcus »

monster_gardener wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Someone tell Ibs . .


Now that's funny . . :lol:


Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Marcus.

Seconded ;) :) :D :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:



And you're very welcome, mg . . impossible to pick up a turd by the clean end . . ;)
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Ibrahim
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Re: Someone tell Ibs . .

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:And you're very welcome, mg . . impossible to pick up a turd by the clean end . .
Not sure you have a future as a comedian. Quote more Rushdoony.
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Parodite
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Re: White privilege

Post by Parodite »

But hasn't institutionalised racism in the US been abolished? :roll: Mixed schools, equal voting rights, anyone can take a bus from a to b and without having to sit in the back etc... No institutionalized racial segregation anymore. In the free spaces though where people interact, racial sentiments and white privileges in socio-economic cirkels exist... but how big is that phenomena today? Seems to me that the whole thing already for a long time is moving in the right direction, and thanks to the media people get quickly informed about issues and incidents where racism and racial privilege still play out. The general consensus is that such things should-not-be. White privilege is less and less an issue. Other forms of privilege though are upcoming, or more resistent to change.
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monster_gardener
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Seeking Stooge for a Comedy Act.........

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:And you're very welcome, mg . . impossible to pick up a turd by the clean end . .
Not sure you have a future as a comedian. Quote more Rushdoony.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

But perhaps you do, Ibrahim.......

As a pompous Stooge who thinks that he is "a better man than you in every conceivable way" ;) :lol: as a foil for someone unorthodox ;) :twisted: :lol: 8-)

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1861&start=25#p51281

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stooge_%28comedian%29
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Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
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Enki
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Re: White privilege

Post by Enki »

Parodite, it is incredibly complex. White people hire their friends for the good jobs. They get expensive salaries at non-profits that serve the hood. More people of color go to prison.
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Re: White privilege

Post by Ibrahim »

Enki wrote:Parodite, it is incredibly complex. White people hire their friends for the good jobs. They get expensive salaries at non-profits that serve the hood. More people of color go to prison.

The extremely biased prosecution and sentencing of African Americans and Latinos for relatively minor crimes is one of the most egregious examples, but the denial of basic services to mostly minority neighbourhoods is also undeniable. Then there are all the statistical metrics like life expectancy, average income, average level of education attained.

It all comes down to what you think is actually causing these discrepancies. Institutional bias and failed policies, or rac.... uh, I mean culture.
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Marcus
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Re: White privilege

Post by Marcus »

Ibrahim wrote:. . what . .is actually causing these discrepancies. . . rac.... uh, I mean culture.
Bingo!
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Ibrahim
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Re: White privilege

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:. . what . .is actually causing these discrepancies. . . rac.... uh, I mean culture.
Bingo!
Which is, de facto, racism. I don't say that as an insult, but simply point out that it is the dictionary definition.
1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism


You won't find a hardcore racist or neo-Nazi organization in the world that doesn't believe that, for example, blacks make up a disproportionate amount of the prison population because they are more inclined to criminality than whites. Or that whites earn more money on average because they are more intelligent and harder working. Its perhaps the most fundamental tenet of racist ideology.




"White privilege" still works as terminology, except that one is privileged to possess natural ethno-cultural superiority, rather than privileged to be the beneficiary of an institutionally racist society rigged in your favor.
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Re: White privilege

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: The extremely biased prosecution and sentencing of African Americans and Latinos for relatively minor crimes is one of the most egregious examples, but the denial of basic services to mostly minority neighbourhoods is also undeniable.
Liberal Democrats, what can you do about them.
Then there are all the statistical metrics like life expectancy, average income, average level of education attained.
And plummeting under Obama and the Democrats. Not sure what you do.
It all comes down to what you think is actually causing these discrepancies. Institutional bias and failed policies, or rac.... uh, I mean culture.
Liberal Democrats run the show in the black community, and have for 50 years now. Start there.
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Re: White privilege

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:. . what . .is actually causing these discrepancies. . . rac.... uh, I mean culture.
Bingo!
Which is, de facto, racism. I don't say that as an insult, but simply point out that it is the dictionary definition.
1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
I see Ibs no mention of Islam or religion.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Parodite
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Re: White privilege

Post by Parodite »

Enki wrote:Parodite, it is incredibly complex. White people hire their friends for the good jobs. They get expensive salaries at non-profits that serve the hood. More people of color go to prison.
Yes, probably it is complex. Most likely racism and white privilege not being the only factor at work, and not everywhere playing out with same intensity and consequence. Impoverished and neglected neighborhoods naturally produce more crime, where skin color is merely a correlation and obviously not causation. Blacks started off in a disadvantaged position and it seems to me that neglecting the poor is more a consequence of the American socio-economic philosophy where you are alone from the gutter up chasing the American dream. In "socialist" Europe the philosophy is that the community invests in the poor not only with a decent social net, but also in neighborhood improvement, social housing etc. because the alternative is high crime rates and social unrest which are also very costly in terms of money and detrimental to the political health of the community as a whole.

Found this site: http://www.statehealthfacts.org/

Loads of data
Simple Minded

Re: White privilege

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Enki wrote:Parodite, it is incredibly complex. White people hire their friends for the good jobs. They get expensive salaries at non-profits that serve the hood. More people of color go to prison.
Yes, probably it is complex. Most likely racism and white privilege not being the only factor at work, and not everywhere playing out with same intensity and consequence. Impoverished and neglected neighborhoods naturally produce more crime, where skin color is merely a correlation and obviously not causation. Blacks started off in a disadvantaged position and it seems to me that neglecting the poor is more a consequence of the American socio-economic philosophy where you are alone from the gutter up chasing the American dream. In "socialist" Europe the philosophy is that the community invests in the poor not only with a decent social net, but also in neighborhood improvement, social housing etc. because the alternative is high crime rates and social unrest which are also very costly in terms of money and detrimental to the political health of the community as a whole.

Found this site: http://www.statehealthfacts.org/

Loads of data
Parodite, not only is the reality infinitely complex in itself, but when the data taker forces the reality into his models and preconceived ideas, it gets even more muddled.

An incident occurs between Bob and Pat at 10:15 on Tuesday January 14, 2013. What do we filter out? What do we focus upon?

Disagreements or agreements? Age? Sex? Race? Education? Right or left handedness? ADHD? Illegitimacy? Religion? Political ideology? IQ? Shoe size? Place of Birth? Place of work?

In manufacturing parlance, what gets measured, is what gets noticed.

I recall reading a stat that most men in prison did not live with their fathers as children. Based on my own experience with my brothers and peers, most of us would have never been civilized (whatever that means) with out the presence of an Alpha male in our lives prior to our frontal lobes developing.

The Trayvon Martin-Geroge Zimmerman and Newtown media frenzys come to mind.

Sometimes it is not-PC to look at individual X as indicative of group identity Y, other times the entire narative depends upon the presuppostion that individual X is idicative of group identity Y. The common desire to define an individual who has lived decades (Thatcher, Reagan, Obama, etc) , or a group comprised of thousands or millions (whites, blacks, Americans, Europeans, etc) by a couple buzzwords blows my simple mind.

All these group identity labels get nasty at the drop of a hat.

As a friend says, there is a lot of money in confusion and obfuscation!
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Re: White privilege

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

From the excerpt of This book
The idea of race as a social construction was meant to register the fact that even if we don't any longer believe in race as a biological entity, we still treat people as if they belonged to races. Indeed, we routinely--both officially (the government does it) and unofficially (we all do it)--organize the world racially. Susie Phipps's mother would have a lot more choices filling out her birth certificate today, from WHITE and BLACK to AMERICAN INDIAN to FILIPINO to OTHER ASIAN (SPECIFY) to just plain OTHER. And she would be allowed to check as many boxes as she wanted. When you're born American, you're also born black or white or Guamanian or Chamorro.12 But we shouldn't think that just because we keep on treating people as if they belonged to races, they somehow do, or that our treating people as if they belonged to races is its own justification. Treating race as a social fact amounts to nothing more than acknowledging that we were mistaken to think of it as a biological fact and then insisting that we ought to keep making the mistake. Maybe instead we ought to stop making the mistake.

But apparently no one wants to stop making it. Often we continue to talk about races as if we knew what they were.Even more often, when race begins to seem to us a little crude, we redescribe it as culture, taking remarks like "black people are good at basketball because they can jump higher" and turning them into remarks like "basketball plays an important role in black culture." Thus we don't hear much in the United States about multiracialism (as opposed to, say, in Singapore where it's an official policy and is heavily promoted on occasions like Racial Harmony Day), but we hear a great deal about multiculturalism. And if we don't yet, like Canada, have our very own Multiculturalism Day, we do have an increasing number of Diversity Days, sponsored by individual schools and organizations, where people celebrate their different cultures. When I give a lecture on race to a group of people today--especially a group of younger people--they may not be entirely comfortable talking about their racial identities, but they've already had a lot of practice talking about their cultural identities and about the importance both of cultural memory (don't forget the Holocaust) and of heritage (don't forget the Middle Passage). They're not likely to say, for example, that they're proud of their race, but they are very proud of their culture and they think other people should be proud of their cultures too.
To some extent, then, culture is now being used as a virtual synonym for racial identity (the multi in multiculturalism has nothing to do with some people liking Mozart and other people liking the Strokes), and to some extent it's also being used as a replacement for racial identity....

...Even those (the vast majority) who are critical of racism and who do not believe in the biology of racial identity have continued to insist that race is a central and even desirable factor in American life. Thus in what is certainly the most influential academic text on the social construction of race (Racial Formation in the United States), Michael Omi and Howard Winant write that there are two "temptations" to be avoided in thinking about race. The first is the temptation to think of it as something "fixed, concrete and objective," that is, a physical fact. The second is the temptation to think of it as a "mere illusion," which "an ideal social order would eliminate." "Race," they say, "will always be at the center of the American experience," and it's a good thing too because "without a racial identity, one is in danger of having no identity." 18 What we've seen in this chapter are some of the ways in which people have gone about trying to make sure that Omi and Winant's prediction comes true and to guarantee that even if people can't belong to concrete and objective races, they can still have (social or cultural) racial identities. And what we've also begun to see is how our commitment to diversity is deeply tied to keeping race alive, partly becausediversity is itself understood as racial and partly because (as subsequent chapters will make clear) our commitment to diversity even with nonracialized groups (above all cultures) depends on treating them as if they were races--different but equal, worthy of our respect.
Simple Minded

Re: White privilege

Post by Simple Minded »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:From the excerpt of This book
The idea of race as a social construction was meant to register the fact that even if we don't any longer believe in race as a biological entity, we still treat people as if they belonged to races. Indeed, we routinely--both officially (the government does it) and unofficially (we all do it)--organize the world racially. Susie Phipps's mother would have a lot more choices filling out her birth certificate today, from WHITE and BLACK to AMERICAN INDIAN to FILIPINO to OTHER ASIAN (SPECIFY) to just plain OTHER. And she would be allowed to check as many boxes as she wanted. When you're born American, you're also born black or white or Guamanian or Chamorro.12 But we shouldn't think that just because we keep on treating people as if they belonged to races, they somehow do, or that our treating people as if they belonged to races is its own justification. Treating race as a social fact amounts to nothing more than acknowledging that we were mistaken to think of it as a biological fact and then insisting that we ought to keep making the mistake. Maybe instead we ought to stop making the mistake.

But apparently no one wants to stop making it. Often we continue to talk about races as if we knew what they were.Even more often, when race begins to seem to us a little crude, we redescribe it as culture, taking remarks like "black people are good at basketball because they can jump higher" and turning them into remarks like "basketball plays an important role in black culture." Thus we don't hear much in the United States about multiracialism (as opposed to, say, in Singapore where it's an official policy and is heavily promoted on occasions like Racial Harmony Day), but we hear a great deal about multiculturalism. And if we don't yet, like Canada, have our very own Multiculturalism Day, we do have an increasing number of Diversity Days, sponsored by individual schools and organizations, where people celebrate their different cultures. When I give a lecture on race to a group of people today--especially a group of younger people--they may not be entirely comfortable talking about their racial identities, but they've already had a lot of practice talking about their cultural identities and about the importance both of cultural memory (don't forget the Holocaust) and of heritage (don't forget the Middle Passage). They're not likely to say, for example, that they're proud of their race, but they are very proud of their culture and they think other people should be proud of their cultures too.
To some extent, then, culture is now being used as a virtual synonym for racial identity (the multi in multiculturalism has nothing to do with some people liking Mozart and other people liking the Strokes), and to some extent it's also being used as a replacement for racial identity....

...Even those (the vast majority) who are critical of racism and who do not believe in the biology of racial identity have continued to insist that race is a central and even desirable factor in American life. Thus in what is certainly the most influential academic text on the social construction of race (Racial Formation in the United States), Michael Omi and Howard Winant write that there are two "temptations" to be avoided in thinking about race. The first is the temptation to think of it as something "fixed, concrete and objective," that is, a physical fact. The second is the temptation to think of it as a "mere illusion," which "an ideal social order would eliminate." "Race," they say, "will always be at the center of the American experience," and it's a good thing too because "without a racial identity, one is in danger of having no identity." 18 (If you do not look at yourself as an individual, but rather identify yourself via group identity, it will be difficult or impossible for you to consider others on their individual merits or flaws apart from their group identity - SM) What we've seen in this chapter are some of the ways in which people have gone about trying to make sure that Omi and Winant's prediction comes true and to guarantee that even if people can't belong to concrete and objective races, they can still have (social or cultural) racial identities. And what we've also begun to see is how our commitment to diversity is deeply tied to keeping race alive, partly becausediversity is itself understood as racial and partly because (as subsequent chapters will make clear) our commitment to diversity even with nonracialized groups (above all cultures) depends on treating them as if they were races (how about as individuals? - SM) --different but equal, worthy of our respect.
Excellent post NapLajoieonSteroids!

I will have to check out this book. Based on the assessment in the last paragraph, I would imagine it was written in the last 20 years, during the zeitgeist when it became chic to evaluate people as subjects of their group identity (and therefore controlled by their "culture") rather than as infinitely variable individuals (able to exercise personal responsibility).

I know people (70+ years old) who identify others by race in a negative conotation, and people (20-40 years old) who find it impossible to consider a person as an individual independent of the group ID (race, religion, nationality, etc.) they assign to that person. Looks like the first 20 years of nuture provide a default perspective.

I think it was Ambrose Evans Pritchard who called "multi-culturalism" a naive experiment. Maybe, but what definition and during what zeitgeist/generation?
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Parodite
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Re: White privilege

Post by Parodite »

SM, agree with your observation. Caution is advised before stereotyping assumed stereotyping as stereotyping. :P
Simple Minded

Re: White privilege

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:SM, agree with your observation. Caution is advised before stereotyping assumed stereotyping as stereotyping. :P
:lol:

I was hoping someone would catch that!

thanks!

If I knew your group identity ( or maybe you are just an autonomous keyboard), I could use your post as a datapoint that proves you people are smarter than those other people.... ;)
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Re: White privilege

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:If I knew your group identity ( or maybe you are just an autonomous keyboard), I could use your post as a datapoint that proves you people are smarter than those other people.... ;)
Thought this quote of as funny as it is makes sense 8-) :
We are using the neurons, our identity, to constantly maintain our identity. Whether you are awake, asleep, or dreaming, this process is carried on. But, it is wearing you out.That is why I say the tragedy that is facing mankind is not AIDS or cancer, but Alzthiemer's disease.
~U.G. Krishnamurti

Image
Simple Minded

Re: White privilege

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:If I knew your group identity ( or maybe you are just an autonomous keyboard), I could use your post as a datapoint that proves you people are smarter than those other people.... ;)
Thought this quote of as funny as it is makes sense 8-) :
We are using the neurons, our identity, to constantly maintain our identity. Whether you are awake, asleep, or dreaming, this process is carried on. But, it is wearing you out.That is why I say the tragedy that is facing mankind is not AIDS or cancer, but Alzthiemer's disease.
~U.G. Krishnamurti

Image
:lol: :lol:

excellent quote and cartoon.

I like Krishnamurti! but I think he stole that one from John Lennon's (no relation to Vladimir) song Imagine.

Wow! Epiphany: Lennon preached against group identity....... Lennin was in favor of it....... ;)

What are the odds......
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Parodite
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Re: White privilege

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:Wow! Epiphany: Lennon preached against group identity....... Lennin was in favor of it....... ;)

What are the odds......
Where does this all end... :D

Image
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: White privilege

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

.

When Mahatma Gandhi was studying law at the University College of London, a white professor, whose last name was Peters, disliked him intensely and always displayed prejudice and animosity towards him.. Also, because Gandhi never lowered his head when addressing him as he expected, there were always "arguments" and confrontations.


One day, Mr. Peters was having lunch at the dining room of the University, and Gandhi came along with his tray and sat next to the professor. The professor said, "Mr Gandhi, you do not understand. A pig and a bird do not sit together to eat."

Gandhi looked at him as a parent would a rude child and calmly replied, "You do not worry professor. I'll fly away," and he went and sat at another table. Mr. Peters, reddened with rage, decided to take revenge on the next test paper, but Gandhi responded brilliantly to all questions.



Mr. Peters, unhappy and frustrated, asked him the following question. "Mr Gandhi, if you were walking down the street and found a package, and within was a bag of wisdom and another bag with a lot of money, which one would you take?" Without hesitating, Gandhi responded, "The one with the money, of course."

Mr. Peters , smiling sarcastically said, "I, in your place, would have taken the wisdom, don't you think?"

Gandhi shrugged indifferently and responded, "Each one takes what he doesn't have."



Mr. Peters, by this time was fit to be tied. So great was his anger that he wrote on Gandhi's exam sheet the word "durian" and gave it to Gandhi. Gandhi took the exam sheet and sat down at his desk, trying very hard to remain calm while he contemplated his next move.

A few minutes later, Gandhi got up, went to the professor and said to him in a dignified but sarcastically polite tone, "Mr. Peters, you signed the sheet, but you did not give me the grade."

.

:lol:



.
manolo
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Re: White privilege

Post by manolo »

Folks,

I went on holiday to Spain with a West Indian friend. Coming back on the plane he said "I will be searched in customs; I always am." We landed, and he was taken to be searched.

I was passed through straight through the gate, which was my "white privilege." Not just words.

Alex.
Simple Minded

Re: White privilege

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:Folks,

I went on holiday to Spain with a West Indian friend. Coming back on the plane he said "I will be searched in customs; I always am." We landed, and he was taken to be searched.

I was passed through straight through the gate, which was my "white privilege." Not just words.

Alex.
Alex,

Look on the bright side. In certain nations, cities, counties, or neighborhoods, you would be considered the other.

The binoids are always going to use two variables to define.
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