The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Enki
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

Post by Enki »

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:But the solution is easy, many lower tech societies have been more tyrannical than higher tech societies throughout history.
Hang on to it, Mr. Perfect. Hang on to it.
So we'll never know the tendency of a non tech society for comparison. And we have a logic loop.
Not if you think about it. The rulers tend to move faster and to coordinate better in order to take advantage of any new tech's potential to increase their power. The people, as a large and uncoordinated group, lags behind in the development of countermeasures. The more tech, the more ways the rulers can genuflect with you. When tech is everywhere, surveillance and control are everywhere.
Well you know how it is. Back in 2002 when Barack Obama signed the Patriot Act and invaded Iraq, that was that, we got a surveillance state. If you are going to elect a Democrat four terms in a row, don't be surprised by the results.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Enki wrote:Well you know how it is. Back in 2002 when Barack Obama signed the Patriot Act and invaded Iraq, that was that, we got a surveillance state. If you are going to elect a Democrat four terms in a row, don't be surprised by the results.
If there's only one party leading the USA and it's the wrong one, who has Mr. Perfect been voting for all these years?
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:The " collectivist" trope, in reality, is shite. Ever started a fire butt naked? Ever tried to kill, pack out, preserve and eat a moose? If you did it alone, I bet your ass you don't want to do it again. The toughest SOB I ever met, whom Krakauer mentions, was a shonuff badmofo that lived in the Kenai- bear country the like of which you've never seen- all by himself, for well over a year. His verdict ? " Man isn't meant to live alone." I'll take his word for it.
The fantasies of suburban libertarians aside, the interesting political fact is that opposition to repressive governments will also require collectivism. An individual standing up for his rights can and will be crushed, regardless of how many guns he owns and how many Trayvon Martin-shaped targets he's fired at. Good aim won't save you. Organized popular opposition to the government is the only way to combat it, be it non-violent protest or something more serious should things escalate and depending on which country we are talking about.

PRISM and Internet kill switches mean that those forms of organization will have to adopt different and probably lower tech means of organization, but the only way out is cooperation with other people. Large numbers of other people too, not some shooting club of seven other suburbanites. OWS/Tahrir Square-sized at least.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Well not really. Echelon as a talking point goes back to Art Bell days tbh. You know Art Bell right, hopefully you are of age. Just recall that talking about Art Bell gets you pigeonholed as an Art Bell guy, hopefully you know what that means. Echelon until recently = tinfoil.

It's about picking your battles. TBH that was never the battlefield whether it should have been or not. The choice between a party that gets Freedom 80-90% right vs a party that gets Freedom 5% right. My conscience is clean.

See, that might have been a functional slander for the longest time, except for one thing: if Bell was telling people that it was being used to spy on them, he was right.
Well duh. But what good did that do anybody.

The thing everyone struggles with here is realpolitic. Being right isn't the issue here, it's doing what works and getting results. Art Bell didn't work. It's not my fault that I could see that at the time. You have to fight on the battleground that's available to you, else you become the natural law party, or constitution party, whatever.

Ultimately on these kinds of things you are a utopian and therefore useless. Eg, you like to take little digs at Reagan, but really it says more about you than him because when it comes down to it you can't point to a single person who actually championed your beliefs or could be a credible political candidate, while I can extoll the virtues of hundreds of GOP senators, governors, congressmen and a few President types. So ultimately you don't even serve your own cause because you can't make it real.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Enki wrote: Well you know how it is. Back in 2002 when Barack Obama signed the Patriot Act and invaded Iraq, that was that, we got a surveillance state. If you are going to elect a Democrat four terms in a row, don't be surprised by the results.
I thought your normal spew was that the surveillance state was created by the cold war.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Ibrahim wrote: The fantasies of suburban libertarians aside, the interesting political fact is that opposition to repressive governments will also require collectivism. An individual standing up for his rights can and will be crushed, regardless of how many guns he owns and how many Trayvon Martin-shaped targets he's fired at. Good aim won't save you.
I don't think any suburban libertarian fantasizes about going solo against the governmnet. I think they fantasize about ganging up in the millions and millions and overthrowing the government.

There really are millions of right wing Dorners.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Well not really. Echelon as a talking point goes back to Art Bell days tbh. You know Art Bell right, hopefully you are of age. Just recall that talking about Art Bell gets you pigeonholed as an Art Bell guy, hopefully you know what that means. Echelon until recently = tinfoil.

It's about picking your battles. TBH that was never the battlefield whether it should have been or not. The choice between a party that gets Freedom 80-90% right vs a party that gets Freedom 5% right. My conscience is clean.

See, that might have been a functional slander for the longest time, except for one thing: if Bell was telling people that it was being used to spy on them, he was right.
Well duh. But what good did that do anybody.

The thing everyone struggles with here is realpolitic. Being right isn't the issue here, it's doing what works and getting results. Art Bell didn't work. It's not my fault that I could see that at the time. You have to fight on the battleground that's available to you, else you become the natural law party, or constitution party, whatever.

Ultimately on these kinds of things you are a utopian and therefore useless. Eg, you like to take little digs at Reagan, but really it says more about you than him because when it comes down to it you can't point to a single person who actually championed your beliefs or could be a credible political candidate, while I can extoll the virtues of hundreds of GOP senators, governors, congressmen and a few President types. So ultimately you don't even serve your own cause because you can't make it real.
So you'd rather succeed at being evil than fail at being good?

I thought so. This explains so very, very much.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Hey, you finally found the right road but you're going the wrong direction.

The Democrats are the ones that succeed at being evil. The Republicans fight for the good and sometimes win and sometimes lose and sometimes get confused or make mistakes. When Democrats make mistakes it's because they didn't get all the evil they wanted. Republicans are right 80-90% of the time, Democrats are right 5% of the time. So you obviously never support Democrats ever and always support Republicans, until the the Democrats are no more. And you need to think like a winner, this idea that only evil can succeed and the good should expect to lose is loser thinking. Not that the good will always win and Democrats will always lose, but

But at least now you can conceptualize that you can indeed succeed at being evil, or you can fight for the good at at least win sometimes like the Republican Party does. Just one more step for you.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:So you'd rather succeed at being evil than fail at being good?
This is the basis of contemporary American politics, people like the feeling of being a winner. Republicans have acted contrary to their stated ideology and backed every statist, freedom-eroding initiative since WW2, and most Republican presidents have been overt criminals and liars to boot. Democrats fall over themselves to mirror Republican militarism policy, and currently are defending Obama for a continuation of many of literal war criminal Bush II's policies, and most Democratic presidents have been overt criminals and liars to boot.

What passes for "realpolitik" in America is nothing but party hacks alternately decrying and defending exactly the same thing depending on which brand is committing the atrocity in question. The best smart people can do is vote for the less harmful option in any given election, and then see if they actually get it.

So presumably this college football model of politics only benefits the creeping technocracy theory.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Demon of Undoing wrote:So you'd rather succeed at being evil than fail at being good?

I thought so. This explains so very, very much.
Not to mention that he doesn't even understand what you're saying.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Do you know who Art Bell is ymix.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Mr. Perfect wrote:Do you know who Art Bell is ymix.
I looked him up on Wiki. Beyond that, there's no reason why I should know him.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:So you'd rather succeed at being evil than fail at being good?
This is the basis of contemporary American politics, people like the feeling of being a winner. Republicans have acted contrary to their stated ideology and backed every statist, freedom-eroding initiative since WW2, and most Republican presidents have been overt criminals and liars to boot. Democrats fall over themselves to mirror Republican militarism policy, and currently are defending Obama for a continuation of many of literal war criminal Bush II's policies, and most Democratic presidents have been overt criminals and liars to boot.

What passes for "realpolitik" in America is nothing but party hacks alternately decrying and defending exactly the same thing depending on which brand is committing the atrocity in question. The best smart people can do is vote for the less harmful option in any given election, and then see if they actually get it.

So presumably this college football model of politics only benefits the creeping technocracy theory.

Glad you can console yourself, but that 5% you voted for still got you Prism, and set you up for far far worse. Not sure what you got that makes that OK. I can't think of anything.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Demon of Undoing wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:So you'd rather succeed at being evil than fail at being good?
This is the basis of contemporary American politics, people like the feeling of being a winner. Republicans have acted contrary to their stated ideology and backed every statist, freedom-eroding initiative since WW2, and most Republican presidents have been overt criminals and liars to boot. Democrats fall over themselves to mirror Republican militarism policy, and currently are defending Obama for a continuation of many of literal war criminal Bush II's policies, and most Democratic presidents have been overt criminals and liars to boot.

What passes for "realpolitik" in America is nothing but party hacks alternately decrying and defending exactly the same thing depending on which brand is committing the atrocity in question. The best smart people can do is vote for the less harmful option in any given election, and then see if they actually get it.

So presumably this college football model of politics only benefits the creeping technocracy theory.

Glad you can console yourself, but that 5% you voted for still got you Prism, and set you up for far far worse. Not sure what you got that makes that OK. I can't think of anything.
The reality very few are facing is that the power of the technocratic bureaucracy DWARFS that of elected officials. And regardless of administration, they will continue to operate and mostly contain the same jobs with the exception of top level political appointments who get swapped out here and there. But inevitably when you get one of those appointments you get the powerful department heads sitting the new boss down and explaining to them what they do, how they do it, and why things need to be done that way.

We are no longer a Democracy, we are not Socialism either, we are what I have increasingly started to think of as 'Statistocracy', or rule by statistics. It's a data-driven mindset, and as such the idea that the government needs more access to data is almost a holy writ. I mean, after all, what kind of stupid git can possibly believe that the government shouldn't have good information when it crafts policy?

Very few legislators craft policy. Lobbyists write much of it. I know this because a portion of New Mexico's healthcare policy has been written by my Father. An acquaintance of mine wrote the crowd-funding portion of the jobs and recovery act. I sat straight across the table from Congresswoman Nydia Velazquez, one of the few Congresspeople, and the ONLY ONE from New York to vote against the Patriot Act. I asked her what she's doing about this stuff, she asked me point blank: "What do you want me to do? I'm just a Congressperson."

It's all well and good to blame the President or blame Congress, but the reality is no one wants to be the person who causes the short term pain of restructuring the Federal government around a radically different model. Even if it works, the current generation has to feel the pain. This is our current reality.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

Post by Simple Minded »

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Do you know who Art Bell is ymix.
I looked him up on Wiki. Beyond that, there's no reason why I should know him.
YMix, I hope you appreciate this as the compliment it is intended to be.

Prior to reading your statement, this one of the best assessments I've read. "Information is not knowledge. People these days are not readers, but researchers. They float on the surface. This thinking erases context."

Knowingly or not, you have provided one of the most accurate and concise assessments of current zeitgeist I have ever read. The number of people I know who will critique a book they have never read, a movie they have never seen, a situation, a location, or a personality of which they have no knowledge/knowledge, but instead rely upon a few seconds of Googling to form an opinion...... staggers my puny brain.

Why would anyone choose to live in reality, when virtual reality is so much more..... convenient? No chocolate mess, no sunburn, no frostbite, no blisters, no perspiration.....

In the old days, Clift notes were the cheat sheets of choice, now with modern tech, there is no limit.

The human mind has always possessed an infinite capacity for self-delusion, but with info tech, it has become easier and faster than ever to deceive ourselves into thinking ourselves smarter/wiser/more knowledgable than we actually are.

I think Parodite nailed it with his opinion that technology is a force multiplier of human nature. Now, whether humanity is good or bad? Can that question ever be answered? Other than what each individual chooses to do with his own life at any given moment....
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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As someone once commented "some people are honest only because they think someone... their parents, the police officer, or God..... is watching them."

Now that so many no longer believe in the gods that make the sun shine, or the rain fall, or the winds blow, those guys getting replaced by the god of technology is the logical conclusion.

Maybe more technology will finally provide the answer to the question of whether humanity is good or bad.

Nah... ;)
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Simple Minded wrote:YMix, I hope you appreciate this as the compliment it is intended to be.

Prior to reading your statement, this one of the best assessments I've read. "Information is not knowledge. People these days are not readers, but researchers. They float on the surface. This thinking erases context."

Knowingly or not, you have provided one of the most accurate and concise assessments of current zeitgeist I have ever read. The number of people I know who will critique a book they have never read, a movie they have never seen, a situation, a location, or a personality of which they have no knowledge/knowledge, but instead rely upon a few seconds of Googling to form an opinion...... staggers my puny brain.
It's a compliment?
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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The situation with Tyranny may be much worse. Nature has never favored One Tyrant... that's kids play and much too boring. Rather it favors many and diverse tyrants all competing and for more... She loves the wars that go on in for instance the Amazon rain forests: 2.5 million insect species, 2 thousand birds and mammals, 3 thousand fish... not to mention the vegetation-animal wars... The idea that human technology will somehow end up tyrannizing all whoever... may be just hubris.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Simple Minded wrote: Knowingly or not, you have provided one of the most accurate and concise assessments of current zeitgeist I have ever read. The number of people I know who will critique a book they have never read, a movie they have never seen, a situation, a location, or a personality of which they have no knowledge/knowledge, but instead rely upon a few seconds of Googling to form an opinion...... staggers my puny brain.
This is precisely what I thought when I read Spengler's review of Kung Fu Panda.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Enki wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: Knowingly or not, you have provided one of the most accurate and concise assessments of current zeitgeist I have ever read. The number of people I know who will critique a book they have never read, a movie they have never seen, a situation, a location, or a personality of which they have no knowledge/knowledge, but instead rely upon a few seconds of Googling to form an opinion...... staggers my puny brain.
This is precisely what I thought when I read Spengler's review of Kung Fu Panda.
Is that the one where Spengo's Kung Fu Nephew wanted to kill the writers?
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Ibrahim wrote:
Enki wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: Knowingly or not, you have provided one of the most accurate and concise assessments of current zeitgeist I have ever read. The number of people I know who will critique a book they have never read, a movie they have never seen, a situation, a location, or a personality of which they have no knowledge/knowledge, but instead rely upon a few seconds of Googling to form an opinion...... staggers my puny brain.
This is precisely what I thought when I read Spengler's review of Kung Fu Panda.
Is that the one where Spengo's Kung Fu Nephew wanted to kill the writers?
It's the one where he was mad that it portrayed a character not having slaved at some skill since he was a tiny pup. The idea that someone could master a subject when devoting themselves full time for less than their whole life galled him. I think that there is some aspect that haunts him for not being able to be a concert pianist.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

Post by Ibrahim »

Enki wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Enki wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: Knowingly or not, you have provided one of the most accurate and concise assessments of current zeitgeist I have ever read. The number of people I know who will critique a book they have never read, a movie they have never seen, a situation, a location, or a personality of which they have no knowledge/knowledge, but instead rely upon a few seconds of Googling to form an opinion...... staggers my puny brain.
This is precisely what I thought when I read Spengler's review of Kung Fu Panda.
Is that the one where Spengo's Kung Fu Nephew wanted to kill the writers?
It's the one where he was mad that it portrayed a character not having slaved at some skill since he was a tiny pup. The idea that someone could master a subject when devoting themselves full time for less than their whole life galled him. I think that there is some aspect that haunts him for not being able to be a concert pianist.
I remember that movie generating a lot of weird columns from different people. I was floored by one arguing that it embarrassed the Chinese because it was a film about a Chinese subject but they weren't capable of making something as good. Was that also Spengler? The idea that China was culturally humbled by Dreamworks struck me as a little funny.

Spengler probably didn't watch the film, or many Chinese films in general where a comical klutz becoming a kung fu hero via magical means is a trope. Moreover a trope - gasp - without deep cultural or religious significance.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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if i get mr p right then prism is a tin foil hat issue and any criticism of obama on it is only fit for the loony fringes... fair enough, thats what ive been saying.

when we developed spoken language we gave up on alot of privacy - furtive glances with emotionally charged facial expressions are much harder to eavesdrop on than projected noises.

aslong as everyone understands that using the internet for anything is being in public then its just incremental variations on a long term process - the only confusing bit is for the old people who think that having replaced a private system of paper letters and analog sounds with electronic ones they still have the same rights to privacy they are used to... they dont, its technically impossible just like its technically impossible to have a heated private argument on a crowded bus.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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noddy wrote:if i get mr p right then prism is a tin foil hat issue and any criticism of obama on it is only fit for the loony fringes... fair enough, thats what ive been saying.
I think he's saying that it was an issue years ago, but the only people reporting on it were people no one took seriously.
when we developed spoken language we gave up on alot of privacy - furtive glances with emotionally charged facial expressions are much harder to eavesdrop on than projected noises.
LOL
aslong as everyone understands that using the internet for anything is being in public then its just incremental variations on a long term process - the only confusing bit is for the old people who think that having replaced a private system of paper letters and analog sounds with electronic ones they still have the same rights to privacy they are used to... they dont, its technically impossible just like its technically impossible to have a heated private argument on a crowded bus.
Bollocks. The NSA doesn't HAVE to listen. This is more like saying you have no right to privacy in your apartment because your neighbor can put a glass to the wall to use as a microphone.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

Post by noddy »

Enki wrote: Bollocks. The NSA doesn't HAVE to listen. This is more like saying you have no right to privacy in your apartment because your neighbor can put a glass to the wall to use as a microphone.
if the NSA is to be effective then the NSA HAS to use all the resources sitting infront of it - the nature of the internet with its messages without envelopes all being copied from one location to the next makes the act of not listening the act of closing ones eyes and ears (lalalalalallaa) - which is why my analogy of arguing on a public bus is unfortunately true.

if you live in an apartment block then your neighbour does hear all your arguments and every time you flush the toilet and everytime you shag.

this is but one of the reasons i left the inner city living :P

dont take my stance as consent, its just my technical understanding of the internet doesnt allow me to take the concept of privacy seriously - it is a public space in its current design and would require many changes involving adhoc peer to peer technologies with constantly changing encryption schemes before i considered it otherwise.
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