God and freedom

[manolo]

Folks,

There are those who pay obeisance to the Christian God and yet talk about loving freedom.How can this be?

The Christian God does allow humans to turn away from it’s law, and this is lauded as moral freedom: the ‘free will to reject union with God’. But at what cost?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

The cost is ‘hell’. Now, there is much interpretation and logic chopping about the nature of hell, but one thing we can be sure of, it is a punishment vastly exceeding any earthly sufferings and from which there is no appeal. Can there be dissenters in hell? Is there a way out for those who honestly reject the ‘love’ of a jealous God?

Let us compare this to dissent in other unhappy situations, such as imprisonment in nasty political systems. In these cases we are still free, despite dreadful hardships, to retain our own moral compass. There are many examples, but one is the case of Nelson Mandela on Robben island. Such cases show that it is possible in these earthly sufferings to retain the spark of freedom within ourselves.

No such possibility remains with the Christian God. Reject God in your innermost heart and burn - end of story. It is my suggestion that this is no ‘freedom’ worth the name for such emotional and psychological captives. The Christian believer is locked and chained in moral and spiritual subjection and if they fail to bend the knee to God’s mystery it will destroy them without trace. Cast into the eternal fires like a piece of trash.

Where is the freedom in that?

Alex.

[Endovelico]

Alex,

God, as most people see Him, would be an insufferable psycho worthy of living in His created hell... Hopefully, if God exists, He will be a very different being from what we make Him to be...

[Nonc Hilaire]

Manolo,

In Christianity freedom is, at its core, intention. The best description of this in the NT are antitheses in Matthew. In the OT we have the commandments to not covet in addition to not physically committing certain acts. Both describe situations in which sin is a 'thought crime' based on intention.

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Frankl describes the importance of intention in detail, and is good reading for theists and non-theists alike.

[Simple Minded]

Alex,

God, as most people see Him, would be an insufferable psycho worthy of living in His created hell... Hopefully, if God exists, He will be a very different being from what we make Him to be...

At first I thought you were describing humans, not god..... The old quote: "Man never manages to create a god superior to himself." explains a lot.

[monster_gardener]

Folks,

There are those who pay obeisance to the Christian God and yet talk about loving freedom.How can this be?

The Christian God does allow humans to turn away from it’s law, and this is lauded as moral freedom: the ‘free will to reject union with God’. But at what cost?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

The cost is ‘hell’. Now, there is much interpretation and logic chopping about the nature of hell, but one thing we can be sure of, it is a punishment vastly exceeding any earthly sufferings and from which there is no appeal. Can there be dissenters in hell? Is there a way out for those who honestly reject the ‘love’ of a jealous God?

Let us compare this to dissent in other unhappy situations, such as imprisonment in nasty political systems. In these cases we are still free, despite dreadful hardships, to retain our own moral compass. There are many examples, but one is the case of Nelson Mandela on Robben island. Such cases show that it is possible in these earthly sufferings to retain the spark of freedom within ourselves.

No such possibility remains with the Christian God. Reject God in your innermost heart and burn - end of story. It is my suggestion that this is no ‘freedom’ worth the name for such emotional and psychological captives. The Christian believer is locked and chained in moral and spiritual subjection and if they fail to bend the knee to God’s mystery it will destroy them without trace. Cast into the eternal fires like a piece of trash.

Where is the freedom in that?

Alex.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Alex Manolo Ethinker.

There are those who pay obeisance to the Christian God and yet talk about loving freedom.How can this be?

Am reminded of the Spanish drama, Fuente Ovejuna/The Sheep Well by Lope de Vega (which is based on a historical event) in which the commoners of Fuente Ovejuna reaffirm their loyalty to the Spanish King & Queen (Reyes Catolicos)/G_d after they have have overthrown the local lord/Commander/Fallen Angel/Devil* who was beating/killing the men & raping the women. The Reyes Catolicos pardon the commoners even though they have killed the local lord/Commander/Fallen Angel/Devil* and the commoners consider that now under the direct rule of the Reyes Catolicos, they have freedom because they are no longer under the rule of the local lord/Commander/Fallen Angel/Devil* who was beating/killing the men & raping the women etc......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuenteovejuna

*Incidentally the local lord/Commander/Fallen Angel/Devil was in revolt/opposition to the Reyes Catolicos/G_d......

[Parodite]

As in real life, in the Christian narrative a number of human dilemmas are playing out in full negotiation with each other. Shame, blame, guilt, responsibility, accountability, full ownership... versus powerlessness, random misfortune, fights you can never win, victimhood.

"Obey God voluntarily.... or else you suffer... die..." is a wonderful riddle IMO. The simplest way to look at it is gnawing contradiction that it expresses. How "free and voluntary" can your actions be.. when a painful stick is used as a threat? It's the jealous-possessive-paranoid guy who tries to force his woman to stay faithful.. to love him unconditionally.. or face his wrath... the whip... the axe!

Both holy-books, the Bible (old and new testament) and Koran, are stuffed with this characteristic of God Almighty: Love, obey... or else . To claim that the New Testament is an exception is false: there is little misunderstanding what will happen with the enemies of Christ and his Father. They will simply die never to return. (Not sure how Nonc manages to dilute this by introducing intention as freedom.)

It might be that our modern day conceptions of individuated freedom, free will and personal responsibility are somewhat (or even a lot) out of context here. Maybe in the time that these stories and accounts were written down, the question was much less "how you use your free will and freedom", but rather "who or what that exists will you obey. What existing calls will you answer to". Not a coincidence that they came up with lines like "You can only serve one Master at a time"; very little room there was for personal choices to begin with, and open-ended stories full of fairy-tales not yet very popular. Something more modern like "Choose your own path in life" was still out of the question. All options and roads were occupied. No real "free to choose" as some vague general open-ended starting position that we know today... but at best a "free to choose" to serve predetermined masters a/b or maybe c. These were times of very limited options for people, things were pretty much pre-determined. So the only freedom thinkable was.. "to choose another Master", to obey a different but already existing set of rules. In that context the "Obey God voluntarily.... or else you suffer... die..." is not that weird. It makes perfect sense. You are just asked to follow a different Master, a different set of rules that will turn out to be more beneficial to you if you follow them - so is the promise.

Before such a theory is proved to be true or false.. you of course have to decide to believe the theory first, or not. Which is: you give the theory the benefit of the doubt and surrender to the possibility of it becoming true. It helps of course selling the promise... if you warn that not buying it will make you very miserable...

In those days the ability to sell the message was very important. Carrots and a lot of sticks. In separation and independently they never sell. A free lunch in heaven no matter what sounds nice.. but who believes this can be true? And cruel random punishment without reason.. is a simple no-goer as well. But in combination, reward-and-punishment, carrots-and-sticks... they do the trick. Carrots-and-sticks are also the most honest undistorted representation of life as we know it: we seek happiness, pleasure.. and want to avoid pain. God should not be too different from this dual-aspect reality; it would make him either a new-age goofy free lunch dreamer.... or a purely sadistic psychopath. Neither seem likely.

[manolo]

Alex,

God, as most people see Him, would be an insufferable psycho worthy of living in His created hell... Hopefully, if God exists, He will be a very different being from what we make Him to be...

Endo,

Yes, I think that is why I am an agnostic. I want to give him a chance.

Alex.

[manolo]

Before such a theory is proved to be true or false.. you of course have to decide to believe the theory first, or not. Which is: you give the theory the benefit of the doubt and surrender to the possibility of it becoming true. It helps of course selling the promise... if you warn that not buying it will make you very miserable...

Parodite,

Yes, that's where the freedom comes in.

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

When were you last in church, Parodite? That old carrot and stick paradigm is outdated. We Christians have focused on experiencing the presence of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for decades.

Modern Christians are not stuck in pre-twentieth century concepts anymore than science is mired in Newtonian physics.

[Mr. Perfect]

Folks,

There are those who pay obeisance to the Christian God and yet talk about loving freedom.How can this be?

You have to be kidding.

[noddy]

its always neat to burn a strawman, take that you fibrous fool!

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

G-d calls you to Himself, an individual, in your incompleteness and inconsistencies, but as yourself........

What does that say about freedom? What are your other options? You can be as a particle in a larger process, like a corpuscle in the superior vena cava, serving a purpose you have a dim inkling about, except other than it's cyclical, and global and eternal. Then when your purpose is spent, you can either disappear into an indefinite and indifferent ethereal entity, or cease to exist altogether. G_d gives you a SELF, and a self can have freedom. As a cellular unit of a great All-that-is-All or a living analogy of a cigaret ember hitting the pavement, fergetabouttit.....'>...........

[Endovelico]

G-d calls you to Himself, an individual, in your incompleteness and inconsistencies, but as yourself........

What does that say about freedom? What are your other options? You can be as a particle in a larger process, like a corpuscle in the superior vena cava, serving a purpose you have a dim inkling about, except other than it's cyclical, and global and eternal. Then when your purpose is spent, you can either disappear into an indefinite and indifferent ethereal entity, or cease to exist altogether. G_d gives you a SELF, and a self can have freedom. As a cellular unit of a great All-that-is-All or a living analogy of a cigaret ember hitting the pavement, fergetabouttit.....'>...........

God gave us a self? In my view we gave God a self... With the difference that ours is real...

[manolo]

G-d calls you to Himself, an individual, in your incompleteness and inconsistencies, but as yourself........

What does that say about freedom? What are your other options? You can be as a particle in a larger process, like a corpuscle in the superior vena cava, serving a purpose you have a dim inkling about, except other than it's cyclical, and global and eternal. Then when your purpose is spent, you can either disappear into an indefinite and indifferent ethereal entity, or cease to exist altogether. G_d gives you a SELF, and a self can have freedom. As a cellular unit of a great All-that-is-All or a living analogy of a cigaret ember hitting the pavement, fergetabouttit.....'>...........

Miss Faucie,

I don't think that these are the only two options.

Maybe the image of God that Christians hold is just wrong. Why cant there be a God who is not jealous, has learned to love his/her/it's creations and can let them go in their completeness?

There doesn't have to be the stories we have to hand; as Donald Rumsfeld famously said "There are unknown unknowns." Why not?

Alex.

[Simple Minded]

its always neat to burn a strawman, take that you fibrous fool!

Even better when you can use Fred's strawman as fuel to barbeque Mary's sacred cow! Satisfies both the body's need for calories and the soul's desire for schadenfreude!

[Parodite]

Before such a theory is proved to be true or false.. you of course have to decide to believe the theory first, or not. Which is: you give the theory the benefit of the doubt and surrender to the possibility of it becoming true. It helps of course selling the promise... if you warn that not buying it will make you very miserable...

Parodite,

Yes, that's where the freedom comes in.

Alex.

Would like to hear more how you see this.

[Parodite]

When were you last in church, Parodite? That old carrot and stick paradigm is outdated. We Christians have focused on experiencing the presence of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for decades.

Modern Christians are not stuck in pre-twentieth century concepts anymore than science is mired in Newtonian physics.

But modern Christians (a minority) are still stuck in many concepts. There may be an exodus out of literalism and even out of holy-books altogether which is a good thing IMO, but still there are serious and regular efforts to distill ecstasy from them, sniffing in between holy words the good parts... of holy spirit. Regularly. The placebo power of words kicks in... but alas.

Like somebody who passed away and time goes by, when detailed memories and words are gone with the wind... you still remember the essence of somebody, his/her "holy spirit". I know this definition of holy spirit is not the correct one, but I think the correct one is wrong. The exodus out of carrot-stick theology is the exodus out of holy-books; it won't help you to dilute what is in there and claim otherwise. At one point holy-books are on the shelves with other books. But their spirits linger on... perhaps.

Interestingly enough these holy-books prophesized their own expiration date. Nobody reads, indulges or obsesses in language in heaven; at least no where this is mentioned. Words are transformed into meat; Jesus told it so. Very few Christians, also modern ones, seem ready for that. To be free from holy-books.

[manolo]

Interestingly enough these holy-books prophesized their own expiration date. Nobody reads, indulges or obsesses in language in heaven; at least no where this is mentioned. Words are transformed into meat; Jesus told it so. Very few Christians, also modern ones, seem ready for that. To be free from holy-books.

Parodite,

Religious and philosophical constructions do tend to have a shelf life, and that's fair enough. My 2p is that the best argument for religion is not the differing claims and small prints but the fact of a human will towards something beyond us. My agnosticism tells me that there may well be something, which our various ideas hint at, but is beyond our understanding.

In the meantime we obsess with language, as is our way.

Alex.

[Parodite]

My 2p is that the best argument for religion is not the differing claims and small prints but the fact of a human will towards something beyond us.

There are many wills towards various things... but what wills towards what things you consider good arguments for religion? In religious practice there are so many different wills and desired for realities at work simultenously... depending on time place and person...

My agnosticism tells me that there may well be something, which our various ideas hint at, but is beyond our understanding.

We all wrestle, to some degree or other, with the mysteries and uncertainties of life. Our brains can't handle non-information very well, that's why nothingness in blind-spots needs to be stuffed with some meaningful filler. The alternative is perpetual paranoia, fear for possibilities that lurk in the shadows under your bed...

Life is a bum and a beggar, it keeps asking questions and after getting some answers.. it only wants more and more. The chance it will ever be satisfied is close to zero. Religion and philosophy however are faithful providers, giving this beggar its daily dose of charity.

This occurred to me long ago during Sunday-school; that God needs to be fed by humans who send him prayers and apologies, beautiful songs and stories etc. That this industry of worship is feeding the deity. He may give... but he certainly takes a lot! There is an economy there... something parasitic going on.

For the agnostic the begging anthropomorphic deity is replaced with uh.. "central-mystery"? It contains all known unknowns and unknown unknowns. When it begs for money... the agnostic says: "Sorry dude, ain't no change in my pocket for you. Go get a job.. do something with your life for God's sake!"

Note that right wing Christians who hate "socialism" provide the best social services to their begging deity, chaining him forever to church welfare titty.

[Endovelico]

My 2p is that the best argument for religion is not the differing claims and small prints but the fact of a human will towards something beyond us.

There are many wills towards various things... but what wills towards what things you consider good arguments for religion? In religious practice there are so many different wills and desired for realities at work simultenously... depending on time place and person...

My agnosticism tells me that there may well be something, which our various ideas hint at, but is beyond our understanding.

We all wrestle, to some degree or other, with the mysteries and uncertainties of life. Our brains can't handle non-information very well, that's why nothingness in blind-spots needs to be stuffed with some meaningful filler. The alternative is perpetual paranoia, fear for possibilities that lurk in the shadows under your bed...

Life is a bum and a beggar, it keeps asking questions and after getting some answers.. it only wants more and more. The chance it will ever be satisfied is close to zero. Religion and philosophy however are faithful providers, giving this beggar its daily dose of charity.

This occurred to me long ago during Sunday-school; that God needs to be fed by humans who send him prayers and apologies, beautiful songs and stories etc. That this industry of worship is feeding the deity. He may give... but he certainly takes a lot! There is an economy there... something parasitic going on.

For the agnostic the begging anthropomorphic deity is replaced with uh.. "central-mystery"? It contains all known unknowns and unknown unknowns. When it begs for money... the agnostic says: "Sorry dude, ain't no change in my pocket for you. Go get a job.. do something with your life for God's sake!"

Note that right wing Christians who hate "socialism" provide the best social services to their begging deity, chaining him forever to church welfare titty.

Very thoughtful. Thank you. As I approach death I will certainly grow more concerned about these matters. But right now I feel that the universe is too marvelous to need a God...

[manolo]

We all wrestle, to some degree or other, with the mysteries and uncertainties of life. Our brains can't handle non-information very well, that's why nothingness in blind-spots needs to be stuffed with some meaningful filler. The alternative is perpetual paranoia, fear for possibilities that lurk in the shadows under your bed...

Parodite,

It doesn't have to be paranoia and we don't have to be Kafka's mole. The 'shadows' you mention do seem to be a big selling point for religions and atheism, as so many people shy away from the reality - that we don't have the answers.

Alex.

[Parodite]

It doesn't have to be paranoia and we don't have to be Kafka's mole. The 'shadows' you mention do seem to be a big selling point for religions and atheism, as so many people shy away from the reality - that we don't have the answers.

Doubt and not-knowing.. it seems to me can really fuel curiosity. Positive forces.

[Parodite]

Very thoughtful. Thank you. As I approach death I will certainly grow more concerned about these matters. But right now I feel that the universe is too marvelous to need a God...

Indeed...

[manolo]

Very thoughtful. Thank you. As I approach death I will certainly grow more concerned about these matters. But right now I feel that the universe is too marvelous to need a God...

Indeed...

P.

Mine's the one on the left.

Alex.

[Endovelico]

Very thoughtful. Thank you. As I approach death I will certainly grow more concerned about these matters. But right now I feel that the universe is too marvelous to need a God...

Indeed...

Good grief! To think we live in the same country!...