Faith and modernity

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Mr. Perfect
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Re: Faith and modernity

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Parodite wrote: I think he gives a very good "reasoned review" of people's various beliefs in God.
No. He gives a terrible review of people's beliefs in God. I believe in God and have been around such people my whole life and Sam Harris has no idea what we believe or why we believe it. It's very important to him and you that a certain template be forced on us, and no matter how hard you try it is a forced template that will never be true.

I would say Sam Harris knows far less about religious beliefs than a random guy pulled from the street.
I suppose depending on the type of belief one upholds, such a reasoned review can be of great added value if you want to believe in a God able to survive a thorough rational, reasoned, scientific audit, to be real and not the figment of my own or anyone else's imagination for starters.

No human has the conclusive test-kit to verify or falsify God, ultimately it is a subjective truth, conviction, or revelation.

The test-kit of science and reason that grills and scrutinizes God looking for verification or falsification is like a freshman's class. If you passed it successfully, you receive your first title: "Honorable and Informed Agnostic".
Of course not. For some reason it is very important for you to believe this, and not you alone I'm not picking on you, but the truth is anyone who takes first years science will learn that science is completely silent on the existence of God.

It is very important to Sam Harris and you to advance the notion that if you get educated enough you can no longer believe in God. I am more educated and learned than Sam Harris and I forcefully believe in God.

The fact that you and Sam Harris are compelled to advance this notion in the face of all contrary evidence speaks to a deep rooted but obvious insecurity that you are blind to. In your case you can't even find out for yourself what people believe and why, you rely on Sam to tell you a comforting story, placing religious faith in him as a higher being who reveals these things unto you.

Now contrast that with someone like Colonel Sun. I like Colonel Sun a great deal, and tbh he is fairly intellectually honest with integrity. Colonel Sun as an atheist is someone I can respect. He is largely indifferent to theism, as opposed to the Sam Harrises of the world. It's no more a curiosity to him than any other subject in the domain. True atheism and agnosticism is ultimately indifference. Pre-occupation with theism speaks to other things

At the end of the day he can agree to disagree, and move on with life. With the Sam Harris types he can't put it away and has to continue to force his falsehoods. Why does he does this? What drives a man to persist in falsehoods.
It concerns truth in the public domain and relieves God from all kind of public bullsh*t. The next level in the Finding God course moves from the public domain into the private domain where rational, reasoned, scientific questions or answers do not apply anymore. Just my poetic 2 cents :)
2 cents indeed. While it is very important to you that this must be true, I think we need to take an honest look at why you need to believe this.

For religious people, public practice is as natural as driving a car. God and the gospel is something that is natural as breathing, we go to church all the time, discuss it with our families and friends, live it all day in our daily lives. Suppression of it is a foreign concept and not something we will go along with.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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MP, you make my point. It is true I don't know anything about the God you believe in. Nor does SH or anyone else. Others can only give their own impression and thoughts about your God, and compare/contrast it with their own belief, disbelief whatever.

You are in exactly the same position as everybody else however; belief in God is subjective, as is how it differs from other people's beliefs. Your religious peers may have similar, even very similar beliefs and religious experiences... but they are never identical 100%. In that regard God is not different from any other 1st personal human experience. We are all agnostic to other peoples experiences since which we have no direct access to them. We can only walk in our own divine conscious shoes. Note that Petersen points out the reality and primacy of the divine individual.

I remember you once wrote that when you were totally alone in nature God felt most real and present. An occasion that made sense to me and resonates.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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Parodite wrote:MP, you make my point. It is true I don't know anything about the God you believe in. Nor does SH or anyone else. Others can only give their own impression and thoughts about your God, and compare/contrast it with their own belief, disbelief whatever.
Suppose so, but that is not what Sam Harris does, and why I object to it. It's very important to him that religious believers fit into a false template that he vigorously defends. I am happy to accomodate any atheist/agnostic in any conversation but not when they put words in my mouth and then state that their goal is to suppress my freedom to speak of my beliefs. Not gonna happen.
You are in exactly the same position as everybody else however; belief in God is subjective, as is how it differs from other people's beliefs. Your religious peers may have similar, even very similar beliefs and religious experiences... but they are never identical 100%. In that regard God is not different from any other 1st personal human experience. We are all agnostic to other peoples experiences since which we have no direct access to them. We can only walk in our own divine conscious shoes. Note that Petersen points out the reality and primacy of the divine individual.
Not so much, when Christians congregate I am often amazed at the similarity of belief and experience.
I remember you once wrote that when you were totally alone in nature God felt most real and present. An occasion that made sense to me and resonates.
I don't recall saying that, would be interested in the context.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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Re: Faith and modernity

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Old hat topic on OTNOT, but here esteemed Peterson slides off the slippery slope IMO:

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In theory, every theory can be viewed as irrational, or less irrational and therefor be valued as reasonable in comparison. Reason and argument for the sake of reason and argument alone is like splashing around ink, take a look at the blot spills and listen to whatever Rorschach whispers in your ear. Seems to me the only thing that matters when making an argument or claim about morality predicated on the existence or non-existence of a transcendent Deity is using a spell checker.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Faith and modernity

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

A Catholic priest who ministers on campus said that porn addiction is the biggest problem he deals with in his work. “Nothing else even comes close,”

1) far too many of their students know next to nothing about the Christian faith
2) pornography is a massive problem.

..

A lot of Christian parents are totally in denial about what they’re aiding and abetting by providing their kids with smartphones. You know who’s not in denial? The porn superstar James Deen. In this piece from The Atlantic, Conor Friedersdorf takes note of Deen’s concern about pornography and the young. (Warning: there is some graphic description in the piece.).

.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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Good interview. Peterson gets airborne here so as of now he is the Air Jordan of philosophy. :)

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Re: Faith and modernity

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VS.

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And, in contrast:
Consider for a moment the extraordinary contrast. For Christians, God acted on humanity’s behalf, without its knowledge and without its consent. The crucifixion is a story of a loving God seeking humanity’s salvation, though it never requested it, though it scarcely deserved it. Jews, on the other hand, believe that God’s covenant was formed by the free consent of His people. The giving of the Torah is a story of God seeking to provide humanity with the opportunity to make moral decisions. To my knowledge, not a single Jewish source asserts that God deeply desires to save all humanity, nor that He loves every member of the human race. Rather, many a Jewish source maintains that God affords every human being the opportunity to choose his or her moral fate, and will then judge him or her, and choose whether to love him or her, on the basis of that decision. Christianity’s focus is on love and salvation; Judaism’s on decision and action.
https://www.firstthings.com/article/200 ... ue-of-hate

Let's finesse this. When Dennis Prager says. "Without G_d, morality is merely a matter of opinion", it means that morality is of relative importance - not priority important, but contingent important. You can define an objective, rationally consistent morality and you can call it true, and it will be true, but it would be merely trivially so, given circumstances. You can ignore morality if you are willing to tolerate the consequenses and against that, G_d is used by believers to raise the bar. To make the gravity of moral choice too great to dismiss casually. Two unacceptable conclusions: people are not innately good and truth has a cash value. Nihilism is a position that holds life cheaply and as result, truth becomes trivial in all aspects. People don't justify evil through religion, religion exists to mollify human limitations, failure, disgust with living and hatred of death. Doesn't always work, but nothing always works. Anyway, that's it..........

Let's consider morality as a currency and the sources of social mores, justice and order, as banks. That leaves us schools, governments, legal courts and justices, NGO's, national alliances. etc..... even churches as branch banks; and community, social and family networks as informal Savings & Loans. In Western Civilisation, G_d is, say, the lender of last resort. Our Fed or ECB, as the case may be. Our culture, whether we believe in G_d or not, is rather beholden to that anchor of reserve and if we remove it, our morality currency may devalue - maybe a little, or a lot. Who knows? Dare to find out??......'>.......
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Re: Faith and modernity

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A remarkable and good man, may he live long Inshalla

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Re: Faith and modernity

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

A Catholic priest who ministers on campus said that porn addiction is the biggest problem he deals with in his work. “Nothing else even comes close,”

1) far too many of their students know next to nothing about the Christian faith
2) pornography is a massive problem.

..

A lot of Christian parents are totally in denial about what they’re aiding and abetting by providing their kids with smartphones. You know who’s not in denial? The porn superstar James Deen. In this piece from The Atlantic, Conor Friedersdorf takes note of Deen’s concern about pornography and the young. (Warning: there is some graphic description in the piece.).

.
A less than healthy and histrionic fear of sex is one of the negative outcomes of the Abrahamic religions having originated in the Muddled East.

For example,

5 Insane Ways Fear of Masturbation Shaped the Modern World

Also, claims of so-called porn addiction are rank hypocrisy

8/10 of the US States that spend the most time viewing porn are in the bible belt.
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Re: Faith and modernity

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

The best thing about having a bible belt is being able to unbuckle it after a good meal.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:The best thing about having a bible belt is being able to unbuckle it after a good meal.
:wink:

Have to agree. One of the better meals I've had was at a seafood restaurant in Charleston, SC.
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Re: Faith and modernity

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

A Catholic priest who ministers on campus said that porn addiction is the biggest problem he deals with in his work. “Nothing else even comes close,”

1) far too many of their students know next to nothing about the Christian faith
2) pornography is a massive problem.

..

A lot of Christian parents are totally in denial about what they’re aiding and abetting by providing their kids with smartphones. You know who’s not in denial? The porn superstar James Deen. In this piece from The Atlantic, Conor Friedersdorf takes note of Deen’s concern about pornography and the young. (Warning: there is some graphic description in the piece.).

.
A less than healthy and histrionic fear of sex is one of the negative outcomes of the Abrahamic religions having originated in the Muddled East.

For example,

5 Insane Ways Fear of Masturbation Shaped the Modern World

Also, claims of so-called porn addiction are rank hypocrisy

8/10 of the US States that spend the most time viewing porn are in the bible belt.


.


Sex is "promoted" and a "good thing" and "to be enjoyed" in Islam .. All Khalifa , even Moh (the pedophile) had "HAREMS" .. they had 3-some and 4-some and multiple-some very much condoned by ALLAH .. in fact Moh was told (is a Sura in Koran) that any woman he desired to have sex with, he welcome to do so and husband had to divorce her (happened) .. jewish too sex good thing

Christians the real culprit here .. in Christianity enjoying Sex is a sin. (that's why Christians say we all sinners - mean they enjoy sex :lol: ) .. In Islam not enjoying Sex is a Sin

.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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nar, christians are the kinkiest of them all and made it more naughty to increase the illicit pleasures.

this is why the bible belt areas are full underage shaggers and the anything goes middle class atheist areas are deadzones of sensible folk going to bed on time.
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Re: Faith and modernity

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

A Catholic priest who ministers on campus said that porn addiction is the biggest problem he deals with in his work. “Nothing else even comes close,”

1) far too many of their students know next to nothing about the Christian faith
2) pornography is a massive problem.

..

A lot of Christian parents are totally in denial about what they’re aiding and abetting by providing their kids with smartphones. You know who’s not in denial? The porn superstar James Deen. In this piece from The Atlantic, Conor Friedersdorf takes note of Deen’s concern about pornography and the young. (Warning: there is some graphic description in the piece.).

.
A less than healthy and histrionic fear of sex is one of the negative outcomes of the Abrahamic religions having originated in the Muddled East.

For example,

5 Insane Ways Fear of Masturbation Shaped the Modern World

Also, claims of so-called porn addiction are rank hypocrisy

8/10 of the US States that spend the most time viewing porn are in the bible belt.


.


Sex is "promoted" and a "good thing" and "to be enjoyed" in Islam .. All Khalifa , even Moh (the pedophile) had "HAREMS" .. they had 3-some and 4-some and multiple-some very much condoned by ALLAH .. in fact Moh was told (is a Sura in Koran) that any woman he desired to have sex with, he welcome to do so and husband had to divorce her (happened) .. jewish too sex good thing

Christians the real culprit here .. in Christianity enjoying Sex is a sin. (that's why Christians say we all sinners - mean they enjoy sex :lol: ) .. In Islam not enjoying Sex is a Sin

.
Absolutely not. In most religions, including Christianity, sexual restraint is a means of building up and retaining spiritual capacity. The opposite is dissipation. Read Song of Solomon. A joyous embrace of sexual pleasure.

In Islam, sex is not permitted during Ramadan and fasting periods for the same reason.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Re: Faith and modernity

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noddy wrote:nar, christians are the kinkiest of them all and made it more naughty to increase the illicit pleasures.

this is why the bible belt areas are full underage shaggers and the anything goes middle class atheist areas are deadzones of sensible folk going to bed on time.
Lol, no.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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Nonc Hilaire wrote: Absolutely not. In most religions, including Christianity, sexual restraint is a means of building up and retaining spiritual capacity. The opposite is dissipation. Read Song of Solomon. A joyous embrace of sexual pleasure.
Depends on the denomination.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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Typhoon wrote:
A less than healthy and histrionic fear of sex is one of the negative outcomes of the Abrahamic religions having originated in the Muddled East.

For example,

5 Insane Ways Fear of Masturbation Shaped the Modern World

Also, claims of so-called porn addiction are rank hypocrisy

8/10 of the US States that spend the most time viewing porn are in the bible belt.
Lol, you believe statistics coming from "pornhub". Tell me more.
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Re: Faith and modernity

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

A Catholic priest who ministers on campus said that porn addiction is the biggest problem he deals with in his work. “Nothing else even comes close,”

1) far too many of their students know next to nothing about the Christian faith
2) pornography is a massive problem.

..

A lot of Christian parents are totally in denial about what they’re aiding and abetting by providing their kids with smartphones. You know who’s not in denial? The porn superstar James Deen. In this piece from The Atlantic, Conor Friedersdorf takes note of Deen’s concern about pornography and the young. (Warning: there is some graphic description in the piece.).

.
A less than healthy and histrionic fear of sex is one of the negative outcomes of the Abrahamic religions having originated in the Muddled East.

For example,

5 Insane Ways Fear of Masturbation Shaped the Modern World

Also, claims of so-called porn addiction are rank hypocrisy

8/10 of the US States that spend the most time viewing porn are in the bible belt.


.


Sex is "promoted" and a "good thing" and "to be enjoyed" in Islam .. All Khalifa , even Moh (the pedophile) had "HAREMS" .. they had 3-some and 4-some and multiple-some very much condoned by ALLAH .. in fact Moh was told (is a Sura in Koran) that any woman he desired to have sex with, he welcome to do so and husband had to divorce her (happened) .. jewish too sex good thing

Christians the real culprit here .. in Christianity enjoying Sex is a sin. (that's why Christians say we all sinners - mean they enjoy sex :lol: ) .. In Islam not enjoying Sex is a Sin

.
Over the length of almost all of the evolutionary timeline, enjoying sex was not a possibility. For most of human existence and all of pre-human existence, sex was not for enjoyment it was for cementing the bonds of the social group and establishing place in the dominance hierarchy. If the early Christians came off as rather sex negative, maybe it was because they were more interested in women as human beings rather than as prize tokens for the pride and ambitions of men. Yeah and those menstruation huts..... they were the pits........'>......

Yeah, and one man, one woman was very good for women but it was even better for men. Women have a nature that allows them to adapt to polygamy if that was the going option and the man in charge was a good provider and protector, but with the finite supply of available wives being brokered in this manner, that means a lot of men doing without. And without basements and video games to soak up that energy - unattached single men could do a lot, lot, lot, more damage and they did. The human psyche is extremely volatile and dangerous and keeping it under control was an innovation of the abramic religions, and human life was net better overall for it.....
Last edited by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits on Thu May 11, 2017 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Faith and modernity

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You are not suggesting complexity, are you?
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Re: Faith and modernity

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

A Catholic priest who ministers on campus said that porn addiction is the biggest problem he deals with in his work. “Nothing else even comes close,”

1) far too many of their students know next to nothing about the Christian faith
2) pornography is a massive problem.

..

A lot of Christian parents are totally in denial about what they’re aiding and abetting by providing their kids with smartphones. You know who’s not in denial? The porn superstar James Deen. In this piece from The Atlantic, Conor Friedersdorf takes note of Deen’s concern about pornography and the young. (Warning: there is some graphic description in the piece.).

.
A less than healthy and histrionic fear of sex is one of the negative outcomes of the Abrahamic religions having originated in the Muddled East.

For example,

5 Insane Ways Fear of Masturbation Shaped the Modern World

Also, claims of so-called porn addiction are rank hypocrisy

8/10 of the US States that spend the most time viewing porn are in the bible belt.


.


Sex is "promoted" and a "good thing" and "to be enjoyed" in Islam .. All Khalifa , even Moh (the pedophile) had "HAREMS" .. they had 3-some and 4-some and multiple-some very much condoned by ALLAH .. in fact Moh was told (is a Sura in Koran) that any woman he desired to have sex with, he welcome to do so and husband had to divorce her (happened) .. jewish too sex good thing

Christians the real culprit here .. in Christianity enjoying Sex is a sin. (that's why Christians say we all sinners - mean they enjoy sex :lol: ) .. In Islam not enjoying Sex is a Sin

.
Absolutely not. In most religions, including Christianity, sexual restraint is a means of building up and retaining spiritual capacity. The opposite is dissipation. Read Song of Solomon. A joyous embrace of sexual pleasure.

In Islam, sex is not permitted during Ramadan and fasting periods for the same reason.

.

:lol: .. come on, NH, come on

Don't know of any Christian, in any denomination, who says "enjoy sex" and "have as much sex as possible" .. Sex in Christianity only for make children, in fact enjoying sex (sort of) forbidden and (in a sense) a sin

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God ?
Meaning your body is not yours and holy spirit (??) somehow living in your body. :D .. means you custodian of your body. :lol: .. keeping it pure and clean for somebody else .. a bit HINDUISM in this thinking.


Christianity’s rocky relationship with sex


No Sex in ramadan ? ? ? have not heard this

Seems you not seen belly dancing .. this they had in their Harems 1000 yrs ago .. :lol:


qZS1gH-A1hw


Compare south Spain Andalusia (Islamic culture) with northern Spain , Madrid and above .. Andalusia is lively happy , North is depressing ..

Compare Santiago de Compostela and Granada.


Christians say Jesus paying for their sins and they must suffer .. Moh says go have fun .. any woman who does not max sexual pleasure to her husband goes to hell, is in Koran

.
Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Wed May 10, 2017 7:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Faith and modernity

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Mr. Perfect wrote:You are not suggesting complexity, are you?
":0... lands sakes, it does look like so, doesn't it?.........'>.......
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Re: Faith and modernity

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

When it comes to sex, everyone is an expert. :)
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Re: Faith and modernity

Post by noddy »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:any woman who does not max sexual pleasure to her husband goes to hell, is in Koran

.
in this weekz game of 'guess the genitals on the prophet' we have ....
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