What to do about Europe's Muslims

[Torchwood]

Most (white, native) Europeans wish they weren't here, but they are, and deal with it. It's like the current vogue for counterfactual history when World War 1 didn't happen.

The left has a dire record of ignoring Islamism because the immigrants were victims of colonial oppression, poor dears, and they are a useful tool with which to wield cultural Marxism (I absolve the French and their laicité from that charge). That seems to be finally changing, resulting in close to a European consensus, and that is all to the good.

But how to act, that is more difficult. If for many Europeans (and not just the new neo-fascists) it seems like 1683 and the Gates of Vienna, to many Muslims it must seem increasingly like Germany in 1938 (no need to pin a green crescent badge on, girls, your funny headgear tells us who you are...). If the pressure is entirely from "kufr", then Muslim communities will close ranks under perceived Islamophobia, which is exactly what the Islamists want. Reform to decent norms has to be driven from within.

Yes, but how many "moderate" muslims are there who are willing to be counted, and are not Taqqiya specialists like (here in the UK) Mehdi Hassan, Tariq Ramadan, Mo Ansar, and indeed nearly all "community spokesmen"? Take the current headline news in the UK, that Islamists seized control of schools in Birmingham and enforced completely unacceptable curriculum changes. While the parents of the pupils may, if pressed, have been dubious about Salafi extremists, they must have at least have passively supported values which are incompatible with decency, such as female separation and inferiority - and the fact that they remain in Muslim ghettos with effective separation of education made such takeovers possible.

I wouldn't normally agree with a right-on PC leftie feminist like ex-Muslim Yasmin Alibhai Brown, but thisis quite a good article.

The "religion of peace" is a sarcastic phrase, but it is possible - ideally, for most people on this forum, largely secular cultural Muslims like our native Bosnians (the victims of "Christian" barbarity), or else the largely peaceful and tolerant models of Sufism. It is telling that the Salafi and Deobandi barbarians hate Sufism. As for the nasty bits in the Koran and the hadiths, well just ignore them, as even literalist Christian fundies do with the Old Testament. Not even the most extreme would support what Yahweh ordered Joshua to do to the Midianites (kill all the men and sell the women into slavery). Boko Haram would, however.

I remain optimistic, after all it seemed obvious in the 1930s that the future would be a choice of secular fundamentalisms (Fascism or Communism) . Liberal democracy is slow to act to a threat, but tougher than it seems. Posted by a Muslim and these guys . seem to be doing good business. I admire the courage of those threatened with violence, who need our support.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Would suggest, you change the tittle of this thread to "What to do with Religious Fanatics" .. as Muslims secular as harmless as Christian secular in all aspect you might be referring to

Religious fanaticism is bad & dangerous in any religion, in Christianity not less than in Islam

But, as said B4, with all due respect, my feeling is this not about Islam but race, as there isn't any White West European Muslim, but, those Muslims you might be referring to are with certainty North African, Arab, Pakistani and and .. those people, even if they would be Christian would be "Unerwüscht".

Nothing wrong wishing to keep British population to traditional White, what Australia saying and Canada WAS saying (no NON WHITE immigration) .. any nation would resent massive inflow of foreign ethnics changing the Fabric of a culture and nation "not used to multi ethnicity" .. but one should be frank and say as such and not beat around the bushes, Islam this and that.

.

[manolo]

Folks,

Our local paper has a constant stream of court pages and the rogues gallery has an enduring pattern - they're all home grown Brits.

Alex.

[Torchwood]

.

Would suggest, you change the tittle of this thread to "What to do with Religious Fanatics" .. as Muslims secular as harmless as Christian secular in all aspect you might be referring to. Religious fanaticism is bad & dangerous in any religion, in Christianity not less than in Islam

I totally agree, but will keep the present title because the problem in Europe is with Muslims, or at least some of them. Christian fundamentalists are rare, and ultra-orthodox Jews may be weird, but they are few and harmless (at least here, in Israel it is another matter). In the USA it is a different matter, and a thread "What to do about America's Christian fundamentalists" would be quite in order.

But, as said B4, with all due respect, my feeling is this not about Islam but race, as there isn't any White West European Muslim, but, those Muslims you might be referring to are with certainty North African, Arab, Pakistani and and .. those people, even if they would be Christian would be "Unerwüscht". Nothing wrong wishing to keep British population to traditional White, what Australia saying and Canada WAS saying (no NON WHITE immigration) .. any nation would resent massive inflow of foreign ethnics changing the Fabric of a culture and nation "not used to multi ethnicity" .. but one should be frank and say as such and not beat around the bushes, Islam this and that

That may have been true of the UK thirty or forty years ago, but does not seem to be the case now. The black community is a case in point. In the 80s, before the Islamic resurgence, nobody worried about Muslims, but there were race riots in black areas such as Brixton in London. While there is a still a problem with some young black men in gangs, it has much reduced, and Afro-Carribbean blacks have integrated with native whites to such an extent that 40% of their partnerships/marriages are now mixed race ( a big contrast to the US). Half the England football team are black, they do not get racist abuse here, but they do abroad, especially southern Europe where fans wave bananas at them and make monkey noises. The key issue is that, unlike with Muslims, there is little cultural separation with blacks. Hindus and Sikhs are less socially integrated, but they are economically, and cause no trouble.

The worst problems are in northern England, where immigration was from Pakistan - nasty place to start with, and from a backward corner (Mirpur). It's far too late to keep England white; immigration has been tightened up considerably by the present government, but it was almost an open door under the Blair government. What has separated openly expressing opposition to immigration from accusations of racism is that the biggest influx has been from Poland, thoroughly white and Christian, and the Poles are quite racist, as are many central Europeans

[Torchwood]

Folks,

Our local paper has a constant stream of court pages and the rogues gallery has an enduring pattern - their all home grown Brits.

Alex.

Around a quarter of the UK prison population is non- White, compared to 13% of the population as a whole. But then, home grown Brits are not all white.

[Mr. Perfect]

"What to do about America's Christian fundamentalists" would be quite in order.

They are coming back. Nobody needs to do anything about them.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2715&start=25#p74671

Soon, they will be doing unto others again.

[Typhoon]

Displays of [what is probably] religious fanaticism don't play well in Japan

Saudi Arabian vandalizes temple statues

Will be interesting to see what will the the outcome of his case.

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

Better to target their kids with the goal of integrating them into general British society.

[noddy]

well obviously you need to seperate them from the parents and bring them up good n proper like.

then deal with the accusations of a stolen generation and cultural genocide a few decades later, australia has been there, done that.

[Parodite]

Immigration: I'd say do it the way Canada and Australia do it now by placing the bar very high on entry. If however the ability to manage your own borders is eroded away by the new class of EU euro-soviets.. then there is no point discussing these things. Then all you can do is pray the non-elected official in Brussels s/he knows what s/he is doing. Probably not.

But once people immigrated and have citizenship: treat them as any other equal under the law and at the same time don't allow any group to claim special status under common law. People who can't take a joke or are very bad at processing insult and want to be protected by, say, anti-blasphemy law while not having a problem giving women lashes and throwing gays off buildings... don't belong here. But of course.. once you allowed them in and gave them citizenship.. well that's too sad but your own fault. When you let in an asshole.. it is your asshole.

The underlying problem in Europe IMO is that secularization is really not that profound yet. The right to believe whatever you want is fine.. and to come together in religious club houses and have your heart and mind wonder off in happy fogs and too sweet to be true sugar coated futures .. but it means that people still don't recognize what is really going on: moderate modern religion and extremist middle-aged religion is just the difference between mild fever a high fever. Fantasies of meta-physical nature can always spread like wildfire.

[Simple Minded]

well obviously you need to seperate them from the parents and bring them up good n proper like.

then deal with the accusations of a stolen generation and cultural genocide a few decades later, australia has been there, done that.

Wow! No matter how we try to avoid it.... the issue of POS parents keeps "rearing" up...

[Torchwood]

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

Better to target their kids with the goal of integrating them into general British society.

The second generation are the problem. They are more religious, and refusing to integrate, then their parents.

[monster_gardener]

Displays of [what is probably] religious fanaticism don't play well in Japan

Saudi Arabian vandalizes temple statues

Will be interesting to see what will the the outcome of his case.

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

Better to target their kids with the goal of integrating them into general British society.

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post and For Maintaining the Forum, Typhoon.

VERY Sorry to see some of Japan's Cultural Treasures destroyed so needlessly...

Hopefully the statues can be repaired.............

Am tempted to say this POS Religious Fanatic Perp deserves Life Without Parole (LWOP) or at least a very long sentence in durance vile........ Maybe a prison in cold Hokkaido ....... To send a message that this will NOT be tolerated.....

But that might well expose the Japanese to being taken hostage by other POS Muslim Religious Fanatics to get his release......

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

AIUI often though not always and especially in the past, the 1st generation was less trouble.... Often appreciated having more civil rights than in the Hell Holes they came from..... Concentrated on working hard and making money....

Problems arose when the next generation felt dissed by Euroz especially if they did not get a cushy high paying job with benefits..... Easier to listen to Islamic preachers telling them that they were the "Best of Peoples" and deserve to have the infidels serve them in any way that they want...

And there is the copy cat phenomenon.......

Perhaps greater vigilance is now needed at temples in Japan....

Too often Muslim Fanatic or Whatever POS Perp see other POS Perp do..... He do too...

Note: Christians sadly have had problems with this too.... Especially in the past...... But even not too long ago IIRC some looney tune tried to destroy Michelangelo's Pieta statue for deranged religious reasons...

[monster_gardener]

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

Better to target their kids with the goal of integrating them into general British society.

The second generation are the problem. They are more religious, and refusing to integrate, then their parents.

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Torchwood.

Quite Right.....

Seconded.

You scooped me as I was typing........

[manolo]

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

Better to target their kids with the goal of integrating them into general British society.

The second generation are the problem. They are more religious, and refusing to integrate, then their parents.

Folks,

It's amazing how those good old religious values endure in the modern world.

Praise the Lord!

Alex.

[monster_gardener]

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

Better to target their kids with the goal of integrating them into general British society.

The second generation are the problem. They are more religious, and refusing to integrate, then their parents.

Folks,

It's amazing how those good old religious values endure in the modern world.

Praise the Lord!

Alex.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Alex Manolo eThinker.

Praise the Lord!

Not so much.......

Rather "Allahu Akbar" as they chop you up with meat cleavers as happened to that English chap in London not so long ago........

Or laugh about it later......

In the video, Royal Barnes laughs as he drives past floral tributes at the scene of Lee Rigby's murder. Photograph: Metropolitan Police/PA

A British Muslim who associated with one of Fusilier Lee Rigby's murderers today pleaded guilty to posting videos on YouTube glorifying the killing.

Royal Barnes, 23, of Hackney, east London, and his wife, Rebekah Dawson, 22, recorded and uploaded three videos shortly after the murder in Woolwich, south London, in May 2013.

In one of the videos posted under his account, Musa Real Talks, Barnes hailed the murder as a "brilliant day". In a follow-up, he mocked the outpouring of public grief, laughing uncontrollably as he drove past floral tributes.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... be-glorify

Or maybe kidnap you and torture you to death as happened to that Jewish man in France a few years ago......

[Typhoon]

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

Better to target their kids with the goal of integrating them into general British society.

The second generation are the problem. They are more religious, and refusing to integrate, then their parents.

I smell youth... vintage youth.

In that case, no idea what a solution might be.

[monster_gardener]

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

Better to target their kids with the goal of integrating them into general British society.

The second generation are the problem. They are more religious, and refusing to integrate, then their parents.

I smell youth... vintage youth.

In that case, no idea what a solution might be.

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post and Maintaining the Forum, Typhoon.

In that case, no idea what a solution might be.

Perhaps no good solution for Europe.....

Maybe not for Uz either....

But maybe there are not so bad solutions for Japan.....

Short Term.....

Maybe just not doing what the Euroz and Uz seem to have done......

Keep them out.......

And not just Muslims....

Try to let in people who want to become Japanese like that Finnish fellow Martin Tsurunen who from what I have seen of him seems to have be misdirected by the Wheel of Transmigration to Finland when he should have been born in Japan.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marutei_Tsurunen

Or at least people who are harmless and useful by keeping the population up in rural areas...

And keep out people who are going to be trouble...... As seen in Europe


At one time, Immigrants wanted to become Americans.......

Now sometimes they want America to become like Mexico or or have culture norms like Taliban Afghanistan........


Have good immigration control laws and enforce them.....

Something that we Uz do not do


If you are going to let them in anyway because Japan is dependent on them for oil....*

Keep an eye on them.....

Maybe put Koban Police Boxes near and undercover police in sensitive places like where Japan's cultural treasures are........


And have a CANDU or better attitude about nuclear power plants properly situated and built with wisdom & diligence.....

So that Japan is not dependent on others for oil/energy......

Have read that with enough energy you can turn chicken feathers into oil... or plastic.....


Long Term: Get Japanese Sustainable Colonies on the Moon perhaps in the South near the Peaks of Endless Light near the Caves of Ice......

In Hollow Asteroids.....

And ultimately to the Stars.......

So that Japanese Culture & People do not end if the Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkeys here on Earth decided to do themselves in deliberately or by mistake over some religious/political/economic reason....


To Japan's credit, lately it seems to be doing better on the Long Term Space front than we lazy Uz have been doing with the honorable exception of Elon Musk of Space-X........


Here in the States, obama, the Arrogant Incompetent Lazy LYING Anti-Space Son of a Bitch Eater has tried to cut the Space Program budget for the past three years....

One example.....

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... 54asXYxfSg

Fortunately the House Republicans have largely stopped him this year.......


But obama the Liar in Chief is not the only problem....


*Recalling a Japanese ship during the time of the Iranian Revolution that had to take on a framed photo of the AyaToilet Khomeini to get oil for Japan

[Doc]

As for the UK, the 1st generation immigrants from troublesome regions will probably not change their ways.

Better to target their kids with the goal of integrating them into general British society.

The second generation are the problem. They are more religious, and refusing to integrate, then their parents.

Folks,

It's amazing how those good old religious values endure in the modern world.

Praise the Lord!

Alex.

I think you meant religion of death values endure in the MidiEVIL world. IE

You love life
We love death
We're a happy family
With a great big bomb and a bullet from me to you
Won't you say you love me too
You love life
We love death
We are friends like friends should be
With a great big bomb and a bullet from me to you
Won't you say you love me too

[manolo]

I think you meant religion of death values endure in the MidiEVIL world. IE

Doc,

http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblo ... tten-films

There is something of a death wish in the Judeo Christian Islamic religions, the seeds of which come out in different ways according to taste.

Alex.

[monster_gardener]

I think you meant religion of death values endure in the MidiEVIL world. IE

Doc,

http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblo ... tten-films

There is something of a death wish in the Judeo Christian Islamic religions, the seeds of which come out in different ways according to taste.

Alex.

Thank You Very Much for your Post, Alex Manolo eThinker.

There is something of a death wish in the Judeo Christian Islamic religions

Wow!

What a broad banal throwaway statement....

About 3 very different religions......

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

About 3 very different religions......

.

Not at all

Hebrew tribe corrupted the original, noble, Persian Zoroastrianism

Totem worshipers as they were, Temple and that sort of things, took most elements of "noble Persian Zoroastrianism", TWISTED them, and, claimed Ahura Mazda has chosen them to "force feed" that "tribal rubbish" on humanity .. Moh, in an ocean of beasts, wanting to bring a wind of civility, pretty much, copied all from Mosche .. Christianity, adapted by Constantin (next door to Pomegranates) for "political reason" to counter the Pomegranates, no religion in "spiritual" sense.

Why not go back to original ? ? Zoroastrianism

.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Why not go back to original ? ? Zoroastrianism

Impossible. Zoroastrianism does not accept converts. One must be born into the religion, or no buzzards for you.

[monster_gardener]

.

About 3 very different religions......

.

Not at all

Hebrew tribe corrupted the original, noble, Persian Zoroastrianism

Totem worshipers as they were, Temple and that sort of things, took most elements of "noble Persian Zoroastrianism", TWISTED them, and, claimed Ahura Mazda has chosen them to "force feed" that "tribal rubbish" on humanity .. Moh, in an ocean of beasts, wanting to bring a wind of civility, pretty much, copied all from Mosche .. Christianity, adapted by Constantin (next door to Pomegranates) for "political reason" to counter the Pomegranates, no religion in "spiritual" sense.

Why not go back to original ? ? Zoroastrianism

.

Thank You Very MUCH for your post, Azari.

Why not go back to original ? ? Zoroastrianism

Might be worth considering....

But let's see Iran do it first.......

Get rid of all the Islamic crap.........

Throw it in during the Fire Festival.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaharshanbe_Suri

And the Mule A$$ mad mullahs too........

Let's see what a Modern Zoroastrian State would look like.......

Bet the Vultures would love it.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Silence

And would likely be better than most non Kemalist Muslim states.....

Might be able to get Israeli Jews even the Ashkenazim to trust followers of Ahura Mazda's boy, Cyrus the Great non-Jewish Zionist....

Doubt that they will ever trust Mule A$$ Mullah, $hitite or Loony Sunni....

[monster_gardener]

Why not go back to original ? ? Zoroastrianism

Impossible. Zoroastrianism does not accept converts. One must be born into the religion, or no buzzards for
you.

Thank You Very MUCH for your post, Nonc Hilare......

Zoroastrianism does not accept converts

Hmmmmn.........

Maybe they could claim they are "reverting" to Zoroastrianism....

Like Muslims claim that converts to Islam are actually reverts as everyone is really born a good Muslim until our parents & others screw us up because Allah makes them do it.......

And religions sometimes change or fudge some non-essential points in the interests of practicality...


IIRC the Sikhs at one point did not accept converts or whatever they are...... AIUI that has changed....


Likewise the Jews were once much more a missionary religion seeking converts....
But now you have to Ruthfully ask 3 times to get in......

Might be interesting to see what happened if Judaism became more interested in converts.....
And Israel did some of the stuff Islam does to encourage conversion....
Not advocating the Full Worse than the Mafia Tax Collection methods of Muslims per Ghazali
Maybe just real low taxes for converts as a start...

or no buzzards for you

Good One!

[Torchwood]

Thank you VERY MUCH for your posts, MG, and if you say thank you VERY MUCH again, I shall throw a figurative IED in your direction (or put you on ignore). It's very irritating, which presumably is the intention.