What to do about Europe's Muslims

[manolo]

What a broad banal throwaway statement....

About 3 very different religions......

monster,

Common root. I recommend watching the film linked. Much to learn.

Alex.

[monster_gardener]

What a broad banal throwaway statement....

About 3 very different religions......

monster,

Common root. I recommend watching the film linked. Much to learn.

Alex.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Alex Manolo eThinker.

I read the film review at your link.........

And the movie wiki..............

Wise Blood is an American 1979 drama film directed by John Huston and based on the 1952 novel Wise Blood by Flannery O'Connor. It was filmed mostly in and around Macon, Georgia, near O'Connor's home Andalusia in Baldwin County, using many local residents as extras. Though largely faithful to O'Connor's novel, Huston reframes many scenes from the book as broad comedy accompanied by a bluegrass banjo score. The original music score was composed by Alex North. The film was titled Der Ketzer or Die Weisheit des Blutes when released in Germany, and Le Malin when released in France.

Wise Blood was shown out of competition at the 1979 Cannes Film Festival,[1] and was released on DVD by the Criterion Collection on May 12, 2009.

Contents

1 Plot
2 Cast
3 References
4 External links

Plot

Wise Blood follows the troubled life of Hazel "Haze" Motes, a 22-year-old veteran of an unspecified war and a preacher of the Church of Truth Without Christ. The Church – a "religious" organization of Haze's own creation – serves to further his bitter, passion-fueled and often spiteful words against anyone or anything representing a belief in God, an afterlife, judgement, sin or evil.

Hazel Motes himself is quite "peculiar", as his unique "head-down speed walk" he demonstrates throughout the film might suggest. His attire is a crisp, black gentleman's hat and sharp dark grey suit, which complements his tall, lean, lanky figure remarkably well. Various women he encounters, e.g. Sabbath Lily Hawks, are seemingly charmed by his unusual, dark demeanor; likewise, other individuals, e.g. Enoch Emory, are simply drawn to him with the innocent intent of befriending Hazel. Motes is incapable, however, of maintaining any such relationships. A borderline sociopath, he is never content with either himself or anyone else he encounters and feels the unceasing stirring need to pursue the foundation of his anti-church, devoting his every waking moment to attracting followers to his organization.

And the wiki for the book......

Recently discharged from service in World War II and surviving on a government pension for unspecified war wounds, Hazel Motes returns to his family home in Tennessee to find it abandoned. Leaving behind a note claiming a chifforobe as his private property, Motes boards a train for Taulkinham. The grandson of a traveling preacher, Motes grew up struggling with doubts regarding salvation and original sin; following his experiences at war, Motes has become an avowed atheist, and intends to spread a gospel of antireligion. Despite his aversion to all trappings of Christianity, he constantly contemplates theological issues and finds himself compelled to purchase a suit and hat that cause others to mistake him for a minister.

In Taulkinham, Motes initially takes up residence with Leora Watts, a prostitute, and befriends Enoch Emery, a profane, manic, eighteen-year-old zookeeper forced to come to the city after his abusive father kicked him out of their house. Emery introduces Hazel to the concept of "wise blood," an idea that he has innate, worldly knowledge of what direction to take in life, and requires no spiritual or emotional guidance. Together, Emery and Motes witness a blind preacher and his teenage daughter crash a street vendor's potato peeler demonstration to advertise for their ministry. The preacher introduces himself as Asa Hawks and his daughter as Sabbath Lily; Motes finds himself drawn to the pair, which Hawks attributes to a repressed desire for religious salvation. Angry, Motes begins shouting blasphemies to the crowd and declares that he will found his own, anti-God street preaching ministry. Motes' declarations are lost on everyone except for Emery, who becomes infatuated with the idea.

After a bored Leora destroys his hat for her own amusement, Motes moves into the boarding house where Asa and Lily live. Motes becomes fixated on the eerie Lily and begins spending time with her. Asa has Lily give Motes a newspaper clipping reporting Asa's announcement that he will blind himself with quicklime at a revival in order to detach himself from worldly pursuits. Initially intending to seduce Lily in order to corrupt her spiritual purity, Motes discovers that she is in fact a sexually experienced nymphomaniac, which puts him off of sleeping with her. Now skeptical of her and Asa's entire ministry, Motes slips into Hawks' room one night and finds him without his sunglasses on, with perfectly intact eyes: Hawks had faltered when he had attempted to blind himself because his faith was not strong enough, and ultimately left the ministry to become a con artist. His secret found out, Asa flees town, leaving Lily in Motes' care. The two begin a sexual relationship and Motes begins to more aggressively pursue his ministry, purchasing a dilapidated car to use as a mobile pulpit.

Meanwhile, Enoch Emery, believing that Motes' church needs a worldly "prophet," breaks into the museum attached to the zoo where he works and steals a mummified dwarf, which he begins keeping under his sink. He ultimately presents it to Lily to give to Motes on his behalf; when Lily appears to Motes cradling it in her arms in a parody of the Madonna and Child, Motes experiences a violent revulsion to the image and destroys the mummy, throwing its remnants out the window.

Inspired by Motes' fledgling street ministry, local con artist Hoover Shoats renames himself Onnie Jay Holy and forms his own ministry, the "Holy Church of Christ Without Christ," which he encourages the disenfranchised to join for a donation of $1. The absurdity amuses passersby and they begin to join as a joke, angering Motes, who wants to legitimately and freely spread his message of antireligion. Despite Motes' protests, Holy moves to the next level in promoting his ministry, hiring a homeless, alcoholic man to dress up like Hazel and act as his "Prophet."

Enoch, during a rainstorm, seeks refuge under a theater marquee, and learns that as a promotion, a gorilla will be brought to the theater to promote a new jungle movie. An excited Enoch stands in line to shake the gorilla's hand, but is startled to find that the gorilla is actually a man in a costume who, unprovoked, tells Enoch to "go to hell." The incident causes Enoch's "wise blood" to give him some inarticulated revelation, and he seeks out a program of the man in the costume's future appearances. That night, Enoch stalks the man to another theater, stabs him with a sharpened umbrella handle, and steals his costume. Enoch takes the costume out to the woods, where he strips naked and buries his clothes in a shallow "grave" before dressing up as the gorilla. Satisfied with his new appearance, Enoch comes out of the woods and attempts to greet a couple on a date by shaking their hand. Enoch is disappointed when they flee in terror, and finds himself alone on a rock overlooking the night sky of Taukinham.

Back in town, Motes angrily watches as Holy begins to grow rich off of his new ministry. One night he follows Holy's "prophet" as he drives home (in a car resembling Hazel's), which he runs off the road; when the man exits the car, the stronger, more forceful Motes threatens him and orders him to strip. The man begins to comply, but Motes is overcome by a sudden rage and repeatedly runs the man over. Exiting the car to ensure he is dead, Motes is startled when the dying man begins confessing his sins to Motes.

The next day, Motes is pulled over while leaving Taulkinham by a strange policeman with unnaturally blue eyes, who claims to be citing him for driving without a license. He orders Motes to drive to a nearby cliff, orders him out of the car, then, remarking that someone without a license doesn't need a car, pushes it off the cliff, destroying it. The incident, coupled with the false prophet's death, causes Motes to become sullen and withdrawn. On his walk back to Taulkinham, Motes purchases a tin bucket and sack of quicklime and returns to the boarding house. Completing the action that Hawks couldn't finish, he blinds himself with the quicklime. During an extended period of living as an ascetic at the boarding house, he begins walking around with barbed wire wrapped around his torso and sharp rocks and pebbles in his shoes, and after paying for his room and board, he throws away any remaining money from his military pension. Believing that Motes has gone insane, the landlady, Mrs. Flood, hatches a plot to marry him, collect on his government pension, and have him committed to an insane asylum. In attempting to seduce Motes, Mrs. Flood instead falls in love with him. After she suggests to Motes that they marry and she care for him, Motes wanders off into a thunderstorm. He is found three days later, lying in a ditch and suffering from exposure to the elements. Angry at being asked to return what they believe is a mentally-ill indigent, one of the police officers who finds him strikes him in the head with his baton while loading Motes into a police car, exacerbating Motes' rapidly deteriorating condition. Motes dies in the police car on his way back to the boarding house.

When the dead Motes is presented to Mrs. Flood, she mistakenly thinks he is still alive. She has him placed in bed and cares for his lifeless corpse, telling him he can live with her for as long as he likes, free of charge. Looking into his empty eye sockets, Mrs. Flood thinks she sees a light twinkling inside them.

We need a vomit emoticon.

And the wiki for the author........

She was a devout Catholic living in the "Bible Belt," the Protestant South.

Noting this.....

She wrote ironic, subtly allegorical fiction about deceptively backward Southern characters, usually fundamentalist Protestants, who undergo transformations of character that to O'Connor's thinking brought them closer to the Catholic mind. The transformation is often accomplished through pain, violence, and ludicrous behavior in the pursuit of the holy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flannery_O%27Connor


Wonder if she had fantasies of being an inquisitor....


And I watched the trailer for the film....

But right now I'm at the point of going TLDR..... Too long didn't read....

You're going to have to do more to convince me to spend even more time watching the whole movie based what seems to be a disgusting book.....

But back to the point about 3 religions.....

Does the film discuss Islam and what does it allege about it?

Likewise Judaism.....

I'll grant you that the film & book seem to be a critique of Protestant Christianity, especially of false preachers & crazy/gullible converts by a real weird bird Catholic antagonist but that's all......

So.......

There is something of a death wish in the Judeo Christian Islamic religions, the seeds of which come out in different ways according to taste.

Alex.

Nothing that I have seen so far leads me to believe that it is justified to make such a broad, banal throwaway statement about 3 very different religions on the basis of a work of fiction


I recommend getting a book about World Religions that cites examples from real life and from the texts of the religions in question

Rather than depending on the fiction of a novel writer & a film maker.....

[manolo]

There is something of a death wish in the Judeo Christian Islamic religions, the seeds of which come out in different ways according to taste.

Alex.

Nothing that I have seen so far leads me to believe that it is justified to make such a broad, banal throwaway statement about 3 very different religions on the basis of a work of fiction


I recommend getting a book about World Religions that cites examples from real life and from the texts of the religions in question

Rather than depending on the fiction of a novel writer & a film maker.....

monster,

This is what the film is about.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=image ... 684%3B1024

The trailer didn't show any of the mortification; maybe not box office material?

Alex.

PS - I'm rather honoured that you investigated the link.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Self-abuse and thanatopic ideation are antithetical. Hazel Motes did not have a death wish. His physical, psychological and financial self-mortification were perverted ways of embracing life more fully.

[manolo]

Self-abuse and thanatopic ideation are antithetical. Hazel Motes did not have a death wish. His physical, psychological and financial self-mortification were perverted ways of embracing life more fully.

Nonc,

I think the Christian sufferer thinks of self mortification as the only road to salvation. The suicide belt OTOH is one quick way to paradise, but does not seem so self possessed. There are similarities though; Motes had gone beyond this world, much as the dedicated suicide bomber, once the die is cast.

Old time religion.

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Self-abuse and thanatopic ideation are antithetical. Hazel Motes did not have a death wish. His physical, psychological and financial self-mortification were perverted ways of embracing life more fully.

Nonc,

I think the Christian sufferer thinks of self mortification as the only road to salvation. The suicide belt OTOH is one quick way to paradise, but does not seem so self possessed. There are similarities though; Motes had gone beyond this world, much as the dedicated suicide bomber, once the die is cast.

Old time religion.

Alex.

Kinda right but you are missing the big picture.

Motes is not suicidal and he is not a Christian penitent. That is merely the language O'Connor uses to retell a classic story.

Motes is Oedipus, which becomes obvious at the apogee of the story. The attachment to the chifforobe, the thumbtacks in his shoes and the barbed wire he wears under his clothes, his hopeless preaching, the preserved monkey corpse, and his "fine" car - are pathetic attempts to cope with the horror of life and Motes' inadequate ways of accepting responsibility for his personal actions in advancing that horror during the war. Eventually he earns his "Wise Blood", but at a great cost.

Watch the film again through Oedipus' eyes. Nothing is accidental or incidental in a film, and this time you will see how the easily forgotten first scenes leading up to and including the classical Oedipal sexual liaison with the dissipated prostitute symbolizing Motes' mother form Motes' basic motivation and affect his behavior and attitudes.

See http://www.enotes.com/homework-help/why ... lic-467737

[monster_gardener]

There is something of a death wish in the Judeo Christian Islamic religions, the seeds of which come out in different ways according to taste.

Alex.

Nothing that I have seen so far leads me to believe that it is justified to make such a broad, banal throwaway statement about 3 very different religions on the basis of a work of fiction


I recommend getting a book about World Religions that cites examples from real life and from the texts of the religions in question

Rather than depending on the fiction of a novel writer & a film maker.....

monster,

This is what the film is about.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=image ... 684%3B1024

The trailer didn't show any of the mortification; maybe not box office material?

Alex.

PS - I'm rather honoured that you investigated the link.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Alex Manolo eThinker.

PS - I'm rather honoured that you investigated the link.

Thank You VERY MUCH for the kind words.

You seem to have intended well......

But I remain unconvinced.......

If you check the images of the Philippine Flagellants there is a note that they are wearing flowers in their hair to promote fertility

Referencing the fact that sometimes pain can promote lust and thus fertility....

If you recall the beginning of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, Julius Caesar has his sterile wife Calpurnia, stand near the parades where the flagellants will whip her hopefully leading to an heir

Antony's Goatskin Whip
Symbolism, Imagery, Allegory

During the feast of the Lupercal, Caesar orders Antony to spank Calphurnia (Caesar's "barren" wife) with his goatskin whip so she might become pregnant. Weird? Yes. But before your imagination runs too far, let us explain what's going on here.

Historically, during Lupercal festivities, it was traditional for young men to run naked through the streets, whipping everyone in sight. The idea was that touching women with the special whip would help them give birth to healthy babies. (We're not kidding. If you don't believe us, you can read Plutarch's biography of Julius Caesar, which describes in detail the kind of aforementioned whippings that went down at Lupercal festivals.)

So when Caesar tells Antony not to forget to "touch Calphurnia" when he's running through the streets, it's because the "elders say, / The barren, touched in the holy chase, shake off their sterile curse" (1.2.4). In other words, Caesar is hoping that Calphurnia will bear him children. This seems pretty random, don't you think? Why does Shakespeare go out of his way to include this bizarre moment in the play? Here are a few ideas:.....

More at........

http://www.shmoop.com/julius-caesar/ant ... ymbol.html


Also recalling reading about the devious practice of some allegedly devout Catholic girls back when confessing to sins could get you whipped rather than just saying Hail Marys, Pater Nosters and the Stations of the Cross.

Allegedly if a girl happened to like a handsome young priest, she would confess to a real or fake sin that would get her whipped and let nature take its course by having sex with the aroused priest who would thereupon whip her again for this sin and

a book about World Religions that cites examples from real life and from the texts of the religions in question

As a matter of fact, a World Religions book I have, Paths of Faith by Hutchinson, contrasts the 3 religions in question as allegedly being life affirming compared with religions like Hinduism, Jainism & Buddhism where in the original forms, the goal was to get free of the material world........

http://www.amazon.com/Paths-Faith-John- ... 0070315434

[monster_gardener]

Self-abuse and thanatopic ideation are antithetical. Hazel Motes did not have a death wish. His physical, psychological and financial self-mortification were perverted ways of embracing life more fully.

Nonc,

I think the Christian sufferer thinks of self mortification as the only road to salvation. The suicide belt OTOH is one quick way to paradise, but does not seem so self possessed. There are similarities though; Motes had gone beyond this world, much as the dedicated suicide bomber, once the die is cast.

Old time religion.

Alex.

Kinda right but you are missing the big picture.

Motes is not suicidal and he is not a Christian penitent. That is merely the language O'Connor uses to retell a classic story.

Motes is Oedipus, which becomes obvious at the apogee of the story. The attachment to the chifforobe, the thumbtacks in his shoes and the barbed wire he wears under his clothes, his hopeless preaching, the preserved monkey corpse, and his "fine" car - are pathetic attempts to cope with the horror of life and Motes' inadequate ways of accepting responsibility for his personal actions in advancing that horror during the war. Eventually he earns his "Wise Blood", but at a great cost.

Watch the film again through Oedipus' eyes. Nothing is accidental or incidental in a film, and this time you will see how the easily forgotten first scenes leading up to and including the classical Oedipal sexual liaison with the dissipated prostitute symbolizing Motes' mother form Motes' basic motivation and affect his behavior and attitudes.

See http://www.enotes.com/homework-help/why ... lic-467737

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Nonc Hilaire.

Motes is Oedipus

You may be correct.....

Good Catch.....

I was too disgusted to notice.....

But now that I see it........

I have another thought.....

Perhaps Oedipus Rex proves that "The Examined Life is Not Worth Living!"

And may just leave you living in an Edifice Wrecked*


*Hat tip to Jay Ward, Dudley DooRight of the Mounties, Dudley's Horse and ESPECIALLY Snidely Whiplash and his Edifice Wrecks Construction Company...

By far the worst pun ever from the Jay Ward stable of shows was in an episode of Dudley Do-Right of the Mounties that featured the name of Snidely Whiplash's building demolition company: Edifice Wrecks.

The same show had a bit about building a bridge over Gorgeous Gorge. (Think 1950's wrestling.)

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewtop ... 40#p115085

I've always been fascinated by Socrates' bold statement that "The unexamined life is not worth living."

He doesn't mince words. He doesn't say that the unexamined life is "less meaningful than it could be" or "one of many possible responses to human existence." He simply and clearly says it's not even worth living.

http://www.consciousearth.us/socrates-u ... -life.html

[manolo]

Allegedly if a girl happened to like a handsome young priest, she would confess to a real or fake sin that would get her whipped and let nature take its course by having sex with the aroused priest who would thereupon whip her again for this sin and :lol

monster,

I remember seeing that film in Montmartre back in the 1960s.

No English subtitles.

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

To move back towards the topic, RC and Shia are the only two groups in question who produce flagellants. This is only among certain subcultures within those groups, and it is not to punish the self but to experience and memorialize the suffering of another. RC has an Order of God subcult which promotes penitential flagellation, but it is a small group of zealots and serves more as a group bonding exercise than anything else.

The suicide bomber phenomenon is Jewish and Palestinian. Samson was the first suicide bomber, and along with the Masada suicide myth remains an active ideal in the Israeli mindset. Palestinian suicide bombing seems to have 'died off' now that the existence of the Palestinian genocide has reached the international community.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

.

Albania was the only European country whose Jewish population after the Holocaust was far larger than that before the Holocaust.

..

Although a predominantly Muslim country, Albania practices a Besa tradition in which hospitality and taking care of the needs of others and ensuring their safety and security is paramount. To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations.

.

Monster, all during that time that you guys (Christian) "Cousin" was gazing our beloved Jews, ONLY Muslim country in Europe was saving them

PFUI

.

[monster_gardener]

.

.

Albania was the only European country whose Jewish population after the Holocaust was far larger than that before the Holocaust.

..

Although a predominantly Muslim country, Albania practices a Besa tradition in which hospitality and taking care of the needs of others and ensuring their safety and security is paramount. To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations.

.

Monster, all during that time that you guys (Christian) "Cousin" was gazing our beloved Jews, ONLY Muslim country in Europe was saving them

PFUI

.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

We have been over most or all of this before so I'm not going to spend time looking up the links.....

Just going to mention a few Christian examples....

Denmark.... Got nearly all of its Jews to safety in Sweden....

Dominican Republic offered to take in IIRC ~100,000 Jews on generous terms....

Portugal: took in thousands of Jews thanks to St. Aristides Mendes Sousa... Salazar didn't like it but the deed was done.....

Japan....Yes Japan.... 1% Christian but sometimes a VERY important 1%... St. Sempo also known as Chiune Sugihara, a modern Russian Orthodox Christian Saint.... Got thousands of Jews to China through Russia.....

[manolo]

Motes is not suicidal and he is not a Christian penitent. That is merely the language O'Connor uses to retell a classic story.

Motes is Oedipus, which becomes obvious at the apogee of the story. The attachment to the chifforobe, the thumbtacks in his shoes and the barbed wire he wears under his clothes, his hopeless preaching, the preserved monkey corpse, and his "fine" car - are pathetic attempts to cope with the horror of life and Motes' inadequate ways of accepting responsibility for his personal actions in advancing that horror during the war. Eventually he earns his "Wise Blood", but at a great cost.

Watch the film again through Oedipus' eyes. Nothing is accidental or incidental in a film, and this time you will see how the easily forgotten first scenes leading up to and including the classical Oedipal sexual liaison with the dissipated prostitute symbolizing Motes' mother form Motes' basic motivation and affect his behavior and attitudes.

See http://www.enotes.com/homework-help/why ... lic-467737

Nonc,

I have not read the original text so to argue this would be bad form on my part. If you are correct it is well hidden in the film, but the 'Oedipus' story does fit and make sense.

Small points. The PTSD viet war thing would have been more believable if the flashbacks Motes suffers were about the war and not about his cruelly religious childhood. For me, it is this childhood that Motes is trying to escape from unsuccessfully, and this could be the wish to have killed his father and slept with his mother. That would make sense, as many Christian families (and others) have been burdened in this way.

Given your input I am inclined to re-read my copy of Gide's 'Straight is the Gate'.

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Manolo - I just threw in the stuff about "Wise Blood" because you seem to like the movie, and O'Connor is an obscure American author.

Let's get back to your ideas on European muslims, thanatos and eschatology.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

.

Albania was the only European country whose Jewish population after the Holocaust was far larger than that before the Holocaust.

..

Although a predominantly Muslim country, Albania practices a Besa tradition in which hospitality and taking care of the needs of others and ensuring their safety and security is paramount. To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations.

.

Monster, all during that time that you guys (Christian) "Cousin" was gazing our beloved Jews, ONLY Muslim country in Europe was saving them

PFUI

.

We have been over most or all of this before so I'm not going to spend time looking up the links.....

.

.. don't be shy, Monster, click on the link, it doesn't bite


Albania had more Jews after the 2nd WW than B4 (can not stop laughing)

" To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations "

Those Swedish Wallenberg and Schindler and other saga just to sooth you guys "conscience" you not as bad as said .. in reality cosmetics

Reality is, things same B4 .. nothing changed

Jews leaving France, Ukraine generate 50% increase in immigration to Israel
France, where Jewish leaders have warned of rising anti-Semitism, accounts for 80 percent of Jewish emigrants from Western Europe.

.

[manolo]

Manolo - I just threw in the stuff about "Wise Blood" because you seem to like the movie, and O'Connor is an obscure American author.

Let's get back to your ideas on European muslims, thanatos and eschatology.

Nonc,

I am beginning to suspect that there are ideological differences in the connotation of the word 'death' between different groups of people.

For example, a secularist might see 'death' as an end of life. This may not be the way that Christians and Muslims read the word at all. For a Christian, 'death' may be an escape from the vale of tears that is the fallen world and rebirth in heaven with Jesus. For the Muslim 'death' may be the way to paradise and 100 virgins. From this perspective we could say that for these theists 'death' means life. Thus for the Muslim ideologue or the Christian ideologue it might indeed be wrong to say that the suicide bomber or Gide's Alissa wished their 'deaths' except in the unimportant sense of being alive and well in this world.

Alex.

[monster_gardener]

.

.

Albania was the only European country whose Jewish population after the Holocaust was far larger than that before the Holocaust.

..

Although a predominantly Muslim country, Albania practices a Besa tradition in which hospitality and taking care of the needs of others and ensuring their safety and security is paramount. To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations.

.

Monster, all during that time that you guys (Christian) "Cousin" was gazing our beloved Jews, ONLY Muslim country in Europe was saving them

PFUI

.

We have been over most or all of this before so I'm not going to spend time looking up the links.....

.

.. don't be shy, Monster, click on the link, it doesn't bite


Albania had more Jews after the 2nd WW than B4 (can not stop laughing)

" To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations "

Those Swedish Wallenberg and Schindler and other saga just to sooth you guys "conscience" you not as bad as said .. in reality cosmetics

Reality is, things same B4 .. nothing changed

Jews leaving France, Ukraine generate 50% increase in immigration to Israel
France, where Jewish leaders have warned of rising anti-Semitism, accounts for 80 percent of Jewish emigrants from Western Europe.

.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

.. don't be shy, Monster, click on the link, it doesn't bite

And Thank You for the license to be blunt

I intend to not spend a lot of time on this.....

Been here & done that before.....

I praise those who do good.....

No matter what their religion....

Whether they are:

The Christian, St. Sempo/Chiune Suighara, the Japanese Diplomat in Lithuania who saved thousands of Jews..

or

The Muslim Selahattin Ülkümen, the Turkish Consul on the Island of Rhodes who saved 50 Jews at the cost of the life of his wife....

I have previously complimented him in another post.....


And I reproach those who do evil......

Whether they are the vile DemonRat DemocRAT Assistant Secy. of State Breckenridge Long who against orders kept Jewish Refugees out of the U.S..... Long Be His Shame

or

Excusers of "Poor Adolf" who declaim about humanitat , but whose real goal IMO is a Revived Persian Empire by Whatever Means Necessary with a side order of the Evil Protocols of the Elders of Zion and/or similar anti-Jewish toxic waste.....

If you want to publicize Albanian Righteous among the Nations, feel free to quote the article further.....

Have spent enough time already on this post....

I may get to the article at the link later....

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

.

Albania was the only European country whose Jewish population after the Holocaust was far larger than that before the Holocaust.

..

Although a predominantly Muslim country, Albania practices a Besa tradition in which hospitality and taking care of the needs of others and ensuring their safety and security is paramount. To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations.

.

Monster, all during that time that you guys (Christian) "Cousin" was gazing our beloved Jews, ONLY Muslim country in Europe was saving them

PFUI

.

We have been over most or all of this before so I'm not going to spend time looking up the links.....

.

.. don't be shy, Monster, click on the link, it doesn't bite


Albania had more Jews after the 2nd WW than B4 (can not stop laughing)

" To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations "

Those Swedish Wallenberg and Schindler and other saga just to sooth you guys "conscience" you not as bad as said .. in reality cosmetics

Reality is, things same B4 .. nothing changed

Jews leaving France, Ukraine generate 50% increase in immigration to Israel
France, where Jewish leaders have warned of rising anti-Semitism, accounts for 80 percent of Jewish emigrants from Western Europe.

.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

.. don't be shy, Monster, click on the link, it doesn't bite

And Thank You for the license to be blunt

I intend to not spend a lot of time on this.....

Been here & done that before.....

I praise those who do good.....

No matter what their religion....

Whether they are:

The Christian, St. Sempo/Chiune Suighara, the Japanese Diplomat in Lithuania who saved thousands of Jews..

or

The Muslim Selahattin Ülkümen, the Turkish Consul on the Island of Rhodes who saved 50 Jews at the cost of the life of his wife....

I have previously complimented him in another post.....


And I reproach those who do evil......

Whether they are the vile DemonRat DemocRAT Assistant Secy. of State Breckenridge Long who against orders kept Jewish Refugees out of the U.S..... Long Be His Shame

or

Excusers of "Poor Adolf" who declaim about humanitat , but whose real goal IMO is a Revived Persian Empire by Whatever Means Necessary with a side order of the Evil Protocols of the Elders of Zion and/or similar anti-Jewish toxic waste.....

If you want to publicize Albanian Righteous among the Nations, feel free to quote the article further.....

Have spent enough time already on this post....

I may get to the article at the link later....

one can ask why Azari buggin Monster on this thread ?

well, is this thread not "What to do about Europe's Muslims" ? ? ? what we should do with those bad Muslims in Europe ? ?

European Muslims are the Albanians .. and .. seems .. they not as bad as one might think .. in fact they seem, the article says, the most friendly and tolerant nation and people in Europe (that is why I mention to read)

Meaning the issue not Islam and Muslims of Europe

The Issue, bugging Torchi is not Islam but those sh*t Paki and Arab and North African

That's what I said at the beginning.

.

[Parodite]

We should learn from Nonc, who made clear that religion does not have to do with anything much in real life. In as far as it matters that certain people are Muslim in Europe better leave out Islam as a factor; just for all practical purposes call them M-people. Most of them doing fine and play by the rules here. If one takes the Meddle East as a standard reference for-how-things-better-be-avoided-to be-or-become... just be content by saying that in some places and regions there simply are too many violent morons, or VM-people around. Bad luck.

There are M-people who are VM-people, but the VM-people contain more types and brands. As there are smart violent people, the SV-people, there are also non-violent morons as well, the NVM-people. The latter is a pretty big group and we all fit in there most of the time.

The Violent Moron

[monster_gardener]

.

.

Albania was the only European country whose Jewish population after the Holocaust was far larger than that before the Holocaust.

..

Although a predominantly Muslim country, Albania practices a Besa tradition in which hospitality and taking care of the needs of others and ensuring their safety and security is paramount. To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations.

.

Monster, all during that time that you guys (Christian) "Cousin" was gazing our beloved Jews, ONLY Muslim country in Europe was saving them

PFUI

.

We have been over most or all of this before so I'm not going to spend time looking up the links.....

.

.. don't be shy, Monster, click on the link, it doesn't bite


Albania had more Jews after the 2nd WW than B4 (can not stop laughing)

" To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations "

Those Swedish Wallenberg and Schindler and other saga just to sooth you guys "conscience" you not as bad as said .. in reality cosmetics

Reality is, things same B4 .. nothing changed

Jews leaving France, Ukraine generate 50% increase in immigration to Israel
France, where Jewish leaders have warned of rising anti-Semitism, accounts for 80 percent of Jewish emigrants from Western Europe.

.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

From your link,

Albanian foreign minister boasts of country's record in saving Jews during Holocaust
By GREER FAY CASHMAN
06/22/2014 10:26
inShare
Select Language​▼
Albania was the only European country whose Jewish population after the Holocaust was far larger than that before the Holocaust.
Ditmir Bushati
Albanian Foreign Minister Ditmir Bushati Photo: Courtesy
Prior to paying his first visit to Yad Vashem on Sunday, Albanian Foreign Minister Ditmir Bushati told participants at a breakfast meeting hosted by the World Jewish Congress and the Israel Council on Foreign on Relations that he would be thinking not only about the victims of the Holocaust, but also with pride about the Albanians who risked their lives to save Jews.

Albania was the only European country whose Jewish population after the Holocaust was far larger than that before the Holocaust.

Although a predominantly Muslim country, Albania practices a tradition known as Besa, or faith, in which hospitality and taking care of the needs of others and ensuring their safety and security is paramount. To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous Among the Nations.

The first Jews came to Albania in the second century CE and, according to Ditmir, there has never been any history of anti-Semitism in the country.

“Nations that have suffered themselves understand the pain and suffering of others,” said Bushati, adding that Albania demonstrates the goodwill of one nation to another and serves as a model of tolerance and compassion.

Albania’s accession to the European Union will be reviewed this week, and if all goes well, the country will not only be a beneficiary but will also be able to influence European policy against the spread of anti-Semitism, Bushati said in response to a question.

Bushati is primarily in Israel to boost bilateral economic and trade relations. Albania can learn a lot from Israel in terms of science, culture, and knowledge, he said, noting that Israel has proved that a country can flourish on knowledge when it does not have natural resources.

Albania, on the other hand, has a lot of natural resources, he said, and has much to offer Israeli investors by way of energy, infrastructure, mining, and tourism.

The potential for enhanced economic relations is largely untapped, he said, mentioning the trilateral transatlantic pipeline project among Italy, Albania, and Greece that will create an important gas corridor through Europe and will be an enormous source of energy to neighboring countries.

The pipeline may eventually include Israel.

Very Nice but would have been nice, if some individual examples had been given.....

Wondering about WW2 in Albania......

WIKI!

Odd....

This is it......

Albania was occupied by Fascist Italy and then by Nazi Germany during World War II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania#Independence


I suspect the fact that Albania was occupied by Italy for most of WW2 instead of Germany may have been a big factor.....

AIUI Mussolini was a fascist but he really wasn't into Jew killing.......

Albania practices a tradition known as Besa, or faith, in which hospitality and taking care of the needs of others and ensuring their safety and security is paramount.

Glad that it worked for the Jews but other cultures have & had similar.... Some say that the real sin of Sodom was against hospitality.....

But it can also get you into big trouble.....

Remembering that the Tallywackers of the Taliban claimed that they could not turn over Osama bin Ladin to US because of Hospitality.....

If the 'guest' is shooting at strangers from inside your tent....
Expect the strangers to become somewhat angry....
And maybe try to burn your tent down....

[monster_gardener]

.

.

Albania was the only European country whose Jewish population after the Holocaust was far larger than that before the Holocaust.

..

Although a predominantly Muslim country, Albania practices a Besa tradition in which hospitality and taking care of the needs of others and ensuring their safety and security is paramount. To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations.

.

Monster, all during that time that you guys (Christian) "Cousin" was gazing our beloved Jews, ONLY Muslim country in Europe was saving them

PFUI

.

We have been over most or all of this before so I'm not going to spend time looking up the links.....

.

.. don't be shy, Monster, click on the link, it doesn't bite


Albania had more Jews after the 2nd WW than B4 (can not stop laughing)

" To date, 69 Albanians have been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous among the Nations "

Those Swedish Wallenberg and Schindler and other saga just to sooth you guys "conscience" you not as bad as said .. in reality cosmetics

Reality is, things same B4 .. nothing changed

Jews leaving France, Ukraine generate 50% increase in immigration to Israel
France, where Jewish leaders have warned of rising anti-Semitism, accounts for 80 percent of Jewish emigrants from Western Europe.

.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

.. don't be shy, Monster, click on the link, it doesn't bite

And Thank You for the license to be blunt

I intend to not spend a lot of time on this.....

Been here & done that before.....

I praise those who do good.....

No matter what their religion....

Whether they are:

The Christian, St. Sempo/Chiune Suighara, the Japanese Diplomat in Lithuania who saved thousands of Jews..

or

The Muslim Selahattin Ülkümen, the Turkish Consul on the Island of Rhodes who saved 50 Jews at the cost of the life of his wife....

I have previously complimented him in another post.....


And I reproach those who do evil......

Whether they are the vile DemonRat DemocRAT Assistant Secy. of State Breckenridge Long who against orders kept Jewish Refugees out of the U.S..... Long Be His Shame

or

Excusers of "Poor Adolf" who declaim about humanitat , but whose real goal IMO is a Revived Persian Empire by Whatever Means Necessary with a side order of the Evil Protocols of the Elders of Zion and/or similar anti-Jewish toxic waste.....

If you want to publicize Albanian Righteous among the Nations, feel free to quote the article further.....

Have spent enough time already on this post....

I may get to the article at the link later....

one can ask why Azari buggin Monster on this thread ?

well, is this thread not "What to do about Europe's Muslims" ? ? ? what we should do with those bad Muslims in Europe ? ?

European Muslims are the Albanians .. and .. seems .. they not as bad as one might think .. in fact they seem, the article says, the most friendly and tolerant nation and people in Europe (that is why I mention to read)

Meaning the issue not Islam and Muslims of Europe

The Issue, bugging Torchi is not Islam but those sh*t Paki and Arab and North African

That's what I said at the beginning.

.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

The Issue, bugging Torchi is not Islam but those sh*t Paki and Arab and North African

Not so much.....

I still say it is the Meme & not the Gene....

In this case the EVIL Meme of Islam...

Infect a Westerner like Adam Gadahn with a virulent strain of Islam and you get a Jihadi...

Likewise infect African Immigrants to England & you get the Meat Cleaver Murderers....

If the strain of Islam is less virulent, you get something less bad....

Perhaps in some situations a competing meme such Albanian Besa can moderate or divert basic Islam....

And there is are variations in Penetrance...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetrance

We should be glad that Islam does not have 100% penetrance...


But Don't count on it......

There is always a danger of reversion to the original deadly Jihadi Memetic 'DNA' contained in the Koran, Hadith, Sunna and Fiqh manuals such as the vile Reliance of the Traveler which amoung other evil instructs Muslims how to lie effectively without guilt or shame*.

*Wondering if obama, our current World Class Liar of a President, who was raised as a Muslim , has read the Reliance of the Traveler He sure Lies like he has!

NOTE: Other Islamic mental toxic waste such as Ghazali's instructions to do Jihad at least once a year, Worse than the Mafia extortion methods & crap philosophy where Allah does EVERYTHING including atrocities through you are very evil but do not have the near absolute authority of the Koran, Hadiths & Sunna (What Would Mohammend Do)

[Nonc Hilaire]

London bought three water cannons. Maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury could just eliminate the problem with a mass baptism?

[monster_gardener]

London bought three water cannons. Maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury could just eliminate the problem with a mass baptism?

Thank You Very Much for your post, Nonc.

Might give it a slight chance of working.....

If Holy Water is used....


IIRC Holy Water Sprinklers have been used in the past when confronting Muslim hordes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_water ... _Sprinkler


Too bad that Brit killed by the Muslim Meat Cleaver Murderers didn't get to bless them with one....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_ ... m_backlash

[Parodite]

The suicide bomber phenomenon is Jewish and Palestinian. Samson was the first suicide bomber, and along with the Masada suicide myth remains an active ideal in the Israeli mindset. Palestinian suicide bombing seems to have 'died off' now that the existence of the Palestinian genocide has reached the international community.

Jesus Christ Nonc, have you gone mad or what?! I know living in a caricature of life is more fun... and you seem to have joined HP in Laputa Land.

Oh wait.. there is a point to what you are saying! Jesus was in fact the first suicide bomber with a death wish. The sacrifice, the turning of defeat into a victory, of personal death into a personal resurrection. There is little of that reversed reality in Judaism and Islam. The belief that it pays to be a looser is entirely a Christian innovation. The suicide bomber is Christian, I'm sorry to bring you the news.

[Simple Minded]

Jesus Christ Nonc, have you gone mad or what?! I know living in a caricature of life is more fun... and you seem to have joined HP in Laputa Land.

Oh wait.. there is a point to what you are saying! Jesus was in fact the first suicide bomber with a death wish. The sacrifice, the turning of defeat into a victory, of personal death into a personal resurrection. There is little of that reversed reality in Judaism and Islam. The belief that it pays to be a looser is entirely a Christian innovation. The suicide bomber is Christian, I'm sorry to bring you the news.

Parodite,

Nice touch! I salute you!

Now back to the philosophical underpinnings.....

Where did Jesus get such an overwhelmingly inflated sense of self-importance? My guess, is that he read too much Ayn Rand!

Or maybe, the fact that he sacrificed himself for an unappreciative, nameless, yet to be born collective is evidence that he did not read enough Ayn Rand!

Are suicide bombers selfish individuals or selfless individuals? I'm pretty sure I know which they will claim.

Wow, is this philosophical stuff is tough to resolve......? or what? *

* Philosophy Rule # 1:
Never answer a question except with another question!