What's your ideal society?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Yes. OTOH libertarians recoil in horror.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

All political ideologies do a good job of pointing out the faults of other ideologies, but are blind to their own vulnerabilities. Human vices will always undermine any ideological system.

The key to this is the size of the political unit. It needs to be small enough to maintain an authentic connection between members. It is too big once your neighbors become philosophical abstractions.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
Simple Minded

Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Simple Minded »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:All political ideologies do a good job of pointing out the faults of other ideologies, but are blind to their own vulnerabilities. Human vices will always undermine any ideological system.

The key to this is the size of the political unit. It needs to be small enough to maintain an authentic connection between members. It is too big once your neighbors become philosophical abstractions.
Beautifully said Nonc. Concise enough to fit in my cranium.

From my observations, too big to know the others and their family members on a first name basis, seems too big to administer "well." Small wonder that the American on this site don't agree with each other anymore than the Europeans agree with each other.

All politics is local. The reality to which people respond is also local. As noddy, Endo, and Alex has stated elsewhere on this site.... paraphrased of course, once the reality that the administrators imagine the "others" are living differs from the reality the "others" are experiencing, administration gets messy.

Since politics is where ideology meets reality, administration will always be messy.

On the bright side, most of the posters here must be living is something close to their ideal society, or else each would move, right?

Except, of course, those who have no self which they could move....... I think... ;)
manolo
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by manolo »

Simple Minded wrote: On the bright side, most of the posters here must be living is something close to their ideal society, or else each would move, right?
SM,

I've travelled, but it's always nice to come home. :) It can't be improved upon IMHO.

Alex.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Simple Minded wrote: On the bright side, most of the posters here must be living is something close to their ideal society, or else each would move, right?
No, I'm constrained by family and finances. Relocation to a more ideal society smacks of sociopathy and dereliction of duty.

But nobody likes to speak of duty today. How can one talk of society without a discussion of duty?
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
Simple Minded

Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Simple Minded »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: On the bright side, most of the posters here must be living is something close to their ideal society, or else each would move, right?
No, I'm constrained by family and finances. Relocation to a more ideal society smacks of sociopathy and dereliction of duty.
No doubt true at times. But when one's ideals don't mesh with the dominant culture that the locals have established and wish to maintain, adopting a King Canute complex does not seem to serve society very well or very often.
Nonc Hilaire wrote: But nobody likes to speak of duty today. How can one talk of society without a discussion of duty?
I would not say nobody but few. Witness this thread..... so far.

Donating 10% of one's net income each paycheck is a good start.
Treating others the way you wish to be treated is also a good start.
Simple Minded

Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: On the bright side, most of the posters here must be living is something close to their ideal society, or else each would move, right?
SM,

I've travelled, but it's always nice to come home. :) It can't be improved upon IMHO.

Alex.
Alex,

Amen! Even though each place has it's own appeal..... Be it ever so humble there is no place like home.

Satisfaction or dissatisfaction are largely internal choices. No one can fix another person or culture.

As the old saw goes "Life is 10% what you make it and 90% how you take it!"

But don't tell that to the 90%ers, they will call you a hater! ;)
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Enki
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Enki »

Mr. Perfect wrote: Socialism has caused more people to starve to death than any other system in the world. Only famines compete. Socialism doesn't even feed anyone, they steal food from capitalists, take a cut and occasionally give a little tiny amount to the poor and then pat themselves on the back as if they created it.
Libertarian Socialism is improperly named. It's not about the government seizing resources.
None of you have claim to libertarianism. The foundational authors of that movement are the US Founders, and people like Goldwater, Hayek, Friedman and even Ayn Rand who socialists despise. If we start to print their thoughts and ideas here very quickly none of you will want to have anything to do with them.
I have every bit as much claim to the founders that you do, lol.
Socialism is the antithesis of libertarianism. What you are all trying to say is you want single payer and you want sex and drugs, and you cloak it under libertarianism. Single payer is the antithesis of libertarianism. Libertarianism is the reduction of about 75% of current government.
I don't think you even know much about Libertarian Socialism. It's also known as anarcho-syndicalism.
You guys are selling the equivalent of "Creationism Science."

Just be honest and say "I want single payer and any other redistributionist schemes I desire, if I feel like I want someone else's money I can go get it, but I also want sex and drugs" and just be honest about it.
Did you cultivate that straw yourself or was it subsidized by the government?
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Parodite
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Parodite »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:The key to this is the size of the political unit. It needs to be small enough to maintain an authentic connection between members. It is too big once your neighbors become philosophical abstractions.
Maybe another analogy that breaks down half way, but politics is primarily a place where the rules-of-da-game are being made. As in say football/soccer. Rules are abstractions initially, but once put into effect they impact individuals and their direct environment. Also in small communities there are people that concern themselves with the abstract rule of law; from adult head(s) of family, to an elderly council, a village council. Maybe to have a say in those rules is more important than numerical size of a community. Even a family can be a true prison if it has a rulah that tells everybody to shut up and just do as they are told.
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manolo
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by manolo »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Yes. OTOH libertarians recoil in horror.
Mr P,

They do a lot of that.

Alex.
Simple Minded

Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:The key to this is the size of the political unit. It needs to be small enough to maintain an authentic connection between members. It is too big once your neighbors become philosophical abstractions.
Maybe another analogy that breaks down half way, but politics is primarily a place where the rules-of-da-game are being made. As in say football/soccer. Rules are abstractions initially, but once put into effect they impact individuals and their direct environment. Also in small communities there are people that concern themselves with the abstract rule of law; from adult head(s) of family, to an elderly council, a village council. Maybe to have a say in those rules is more important than numerical size of a community. Even a family can be a true prison if it has a rulah that tells everybody to shut up and just do as they are told.
well said Parodite. For those who have no sense of autonomy, happiness or satisfaction is virtually impossible.

Adversity for those with a sense of autonomy seems to produce happier, healthier people than luxury and comfort for those with no sense of control over their destinies.

Imagine the average Joe who does not know what to do with a rainy Sunday afternoon in Heaven for eternity..... hopefully he won't be sitting on a cloud next to me.
manolo
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by manolo »

Simple Minded wrote: For those who have no sense of autonomy, happiness or satisfaction is virtually impossible.

Adversity for those with a sense of autonomy seems to produce happier, healthier people than luxury and comfort for those with no sense of control over their destinies.

Imagine the average Joe who does not know what to do with a rainy Sunday afternoon in Heaven for eternity..... hopefully he won't be sitting on a cloud next to me.
SM,

I once had a period of unemployment. At first it felt challenging, as there was still this 'company man' feeling about being seen to work and then gradually it faded and it struck me that my time was my own, all day every day! I realised that unemployment is a huge privilege for those who can take full advantage of it.

Given enough to eat and comfy home, unemployment is just the same as being idle rich. You just have to lose the protestant work ethic. :D

Alex.
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Parodite
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:Adversity for those with a sense of autonomy seems to produce happier, healthier people than luxury and comfort for those with no sense of control over their destinies.
Indeed. I think it also goes beyond being in control over ones own destiny. Not sure what I mean with that yet.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Adversity for those with a sense of autonomy seems to produce happier, healthier people than luxury and comfort for those with no sense of control over their destinies.
Indeed. I think it also goes beyond being in control over ones own destiny. Not sure what I mean with that yet.
Romans 5:3-5 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Parodite
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Parodite »

Was thinking of another goodie for my ideal society; a culture where "what is wrong" is not focused on "wrong individuals" by assigning guilt (as per "the born sinner man"), but on the ability of people to change their environment.

Human nature.. individual characteristics.. are not so easy to change (if at all)... but changing the environment, circumstances.. can be done. Bad circumstances can bring the worst out of you.. good circumstances the best.

Nobody is intrinsically good or bad. We can try to put the emphasis on how to "nurture nature" better. In my ideal society there is no trace of psychological/religious voodoo that tries to blame-shame children from the moment they are born.

In modern psychology the focus is still very much on the individual self where people are told to work things out from their own personal perspective and experiences. This self-centered approach itself may create its own problems. Introspection hardly ever reveals much information, and in the end all you can do is act in the environment.. change it.. do things there.. to make life better for yourself and others.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Simple Minded

Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:
SM,

I once had a period of unemployment. At first it felt challenging, as there was still this 'company man' feeling about being seen to work and then gradually it faded and it struck me that my time was my own, all day every day! I realised that unemployment is a huge privilege for those who can take full advantage of it.

Given enough to eat and comfy home, unemployment is just the same as being idle rich. You just have to lose the protestant work ethic. :D

Alex.
alex,

I somewhat agree. A few dozen old quotes on wealth come to mind. Send me your email address via PM and I will send them to you.

The short list: "He who knows that enough is enough will always have enough." "That man is richest whose pleasure are cheapest."

Being raised in prosperity, or a prosperous culture/neighborhood is not as much of a blessing as many imagine. It creates some perverse expectations of "need" which often makes one unhappy. the good news is we each get to define "need" ourselves.

The red text above seems more a crises of one's personal identity. Time on your hands is only appreciated by those with a proper attitude. Often they are the elderly.

Some of the happiest people I know are workaholics. They seem to have altruistic sense of self when it comes to joy of serving others.

I'm kinda proud of that last sentence...... ;)
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by manolo »

Simple Minded wrote:
Some of the happiest people I know are workaholics. They seem to have altruistic sense of self when it comes to joy of serving others.
SM,

I think Ayn Rand would agree with you. She put a lot of work into trying to help others through her writing.

Alex.
Simple Minded

Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Some of the happiest people I know are workaholics. They seem to have altruistic sense of self when it comes to joy of serving others.
SM,

I think Ayn Rand would agree with you. She put a lot of work into trying to help others through her writing.

Alex.
Alex,

nice! :lol:

I only "think" Ayn Rand might agree with me. But I have "faith" that Jesus would also.

Or if not, he'd still love me! :)
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Enki
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Enki »

manolo wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Yes. OTOH libertarians recoil in horror.
Mr P,

They do a lot of that.

Alex.
They shook.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Parodite
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Parodite »

Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Adversity for those with a sense of autonomy seems to produce happier, healthier people than luxury and comfort for those with no sense of control over their destinies.
Indeed. I think it also goes beyond being in control over ones own destiny. Not sure what I mean with that yet.
Was probably thinking re autonomy and freedom.. that people who lost all autonomy will find ways and places.. no matter how small or even only in their heads.. to experience autonomy, hope, freedom. Prisoners come to mind, or Anne Frank only seeing a bit of sky through a small window..

This human need for freedom and autonomy seems very persistent. On the other hand.. some can only feel happy when the opposite is the case and rather be a full-slave of some or other.
Deep down I'm very superficial
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kmich
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by kmich »

I know what is not compatible with any decent, free, and sustainable republic, and so did the main author of our constitution, James Madison:
Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. ~ Political Observations (1795-04-20)
Mr. Perfect
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote: Libertarian Socialism is improperly named. It's not about the government seizing resources.
These days they'll never tell you what it really is about. Reverting to the norm. The love that dare not speak it's name.
I have every bit as much claim to the founders that you do, lol.
Not philosophically. They believed in government 75% smaller, at least. No single payer allowed.
I don't think you even know much about Libertarian Socialism.
Nobody does.
Did you cultivate that straw yourself or was it subsidized by the government?
Through STPN most of my increase these days is subsidized. I call the broker, and I say "is my account going to run out of room? It's so swollen with money" and the broker says "no, it's just little digital bits, we can keep doubling and tripling your accounts, no problem", so I keep at it. I figure if you leftists are so intent on engorging me with money it would be rude not to take it.
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manolo
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by manolo »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
I don't think you even know much about Libertarian Socialism.
Nobody does.
Folks,

It's a perfect combination of liberty and socialism.

Alex.
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Marcus
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by Marcus »

manolo wrote:Folks,

[Libertarian Socialism is] a perfect combination of liberty and socialism.

Alex.

Ain't no such thing, never has been, and never can be a perfect combination of the One and the Many.
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manolo
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Re: What's your ideal society?

Post by manolo »

Marcus wrote:
Ain't no such thing, never has been, and never can be a perfect combination of the One and the Many.
marcus,

You've obviously never had suchi.

Alex. :)
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