Blood sacrifice and redemption of sins

[manolo]

Folks,

There is an old religion in which a ritual called 'Kaparot' is performed. It is intended to redeem sins.
A blessing and prayer are recited while a live fowl is waved over a person's head. The idea is that sins accumulated in the person over the last year will be transferred into the bird, which is then butchered and eaten or given away.

My question is not so much about the ritual itself, but what happens after the bird has taken the sins from the person. If it is eaten, would the sins not be transferred again into the diner? Also if the bird is given away who is to know where the sins will end up, and with whom?

Alex.

Source, Independent 'i' page 32, 3/10/2014.

[kmich]

Folks,

There is an old religion in which a ritual called 'Kaparot' is performed. It is intended to redeem sins.
A blessing and prayer are recited while a live fowl is waved over a person's head. The idea is that sins accumulated in the person over the last year will be transferred into the bird, which is then butchered and eaten or given away.

My question is not so much about the ritual itself, but what happens after the bird has taken the sins from the person. If it is eaten, would the sins not be transferred again into the diner? Also if the bird is given away who is to know where the sins will end up, and with whom?

Alex.

Source, Independent 'i' page 32, 3/10/2014.

“Verily, verily, thy chicken shall be cast into the fiery furnace with sage and thyme and there will be much feasting and rejoicing among the righteous, for what has been made impure in thine fowl will pass into the toilet in the dawn to the trumpeting of angels….”

[manolo]

“Verily, verily, thy chicken shall be cast into the fiery furnace with sage and thyme and there will be much feasting and rejoicing among the righteous, for what has been made impure in thine fowl will pass into the toilet in the dawn to the trumpeting of angels….”

kmich,

That's interesting although slightly puzzling. If the sins are removed from the fowl in the cooking process, as you say the "fiery furnace" then why would this not also apply in human cremation? If the sins are not removed in the cooking but pass through the digestive system of the diner, then what would happen if the diner is constipated?

It can take a long while for matter to pass through the constipated gut, so if the person is holding on to faecal matter there is a possibility that the sins might have time to pass through the gut wall and into the person. All very worrying!

There are two concerns here: one is spiritual/metaphysical and the other is colo-rectal.

Alex.

[Mr. Perfect]

How would anybody here know anything about it, or have anything to say about it. Nobody here has heard of kapaorat before.

Maybe for your mental health you can go outside and scream into the night, "I hate religion! I really hate it! Especially the Bible one! I hate it so muuucccchhhh!!!!!!!!!"

Perhaps that would be cathartic.

[manolo]

How would anybody here know anything about it, or have anything to say about it. Nobody here has heard of kapaorat before.

Maybe for your mental health you can go outside and scream into the night, "I hate religion! I really hate it! Especially the Bible one! I hate it so muuucccchhhh!!!!!!!!!"

Perhaps that would be cathartic.

Mr P,

OTOH I might just have some chicken tonight, but preferably not Kaparot sourced. Plain old farmyard organic does me fine.

Alex.

[kmich]

This thread is enough to make a good Christian choke his chicken.

[Simple Minded]

This thread is enough to make a good Christian choke his chicken.

speculation or prescription?

if the former does not relieve one's stress, the latter Shirley does.....

I'm pretty sure I know which has the more faithful of practitioners......

although I did misread Christian as Catholic....

[Endovelico]

Blood sacrifice and redemption of sins???... How primitive are we really?... Maybe Jews should be happy about the holocaust! Such a sacrifice will remain in force for the next 10,000 years, at least!... So maybe they can stop killing Palestinians...

[Marcus]

vomitbag.gif (7.09 KiB) Viewed 1096 times

This thread belongs in Hell . .

[Nonc Hilaire]

Kapparot is a folk custom practiced by some Jewish communities before Yom Kippur (today). The chicken is given to the poor, with the concept being that a charitable act helps "balance the heavenly scales".

It's not really Jewish, but folk traditions are often incorporated into religious holidays. The idea that sin can be atoned for by a charitable act is also common.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... parot.html

[kmich]

vomitbag.gif

This thread belongs in Hell . .

The chickens are going to come home to roost on all these going ons....

[Nonc Hilaire]

[Mr. Perfect]

Well look at it this way. Nearly all cultures have some kind of atoning process. Whether it be karma, or blood or other sacrifice to wash away the guilt.

But look at the liberal, who feels guilt continually for the white man's treatment of the planet, from women and minorities to the environment, and express themselves in guilt politics. In fact you can find liberals everyday everywhere in emotional sackcloth and ashes about events happening centuries ago (slavery/imperialism), let alone decades ago. Future liberals will also look back at not just the past centuries and mourn, but the times we are now and take on the guilt for things now the future liberals will consider oppression that current liberals aren't aware of. For liberals the guilt GROWS infinitely, and can never be forgiven.

Maybe that is what hell is. Being liberal. Eternal growing guilt without any hope of reprieve.

Chicken sacrifice sounds pretty good right now.

[Parodite]

So what is this thing with Jesus paying for our sins with his blood, eh?

[Mr. Perfect]

Jews don't believe in it.

[Nonc Hilaire]

So what is this thing with Jesus paying for our sins with his blood, eh?

This phrase usually refers to a minority Protestant view that Jesus' crucifixion was a sin offering in the style of Jewish temple blood sacrifices.

[Marcus]

Reformed/Presbyterian

—WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH, 1646

Chapter VIII

Of Christ the Mediator

I. It pleased God, in His eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, His only begotten Son, to be the Mediator between God and man,[1] the Prophet,[2] Priest,[3] and King,[4] the Head and Savior of His Church,[5] the Heir of all things,[6] and Judge of the world:[7] unto whom He did from all eternity give a people, to be His seed,[8] and to be by Him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.[9]

II. The Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon Him man's nature,[10] with all the essential properties, and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;[11] being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the virgin Mary, of her substance.[12] So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion.[13] Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.[14]

III. The Lord Jesus, in His human nature thus united to the divine, was sanctified, and anointed with the Holy Spirit, above measure,[15] having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge;[16] in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell;[17] to the end that, being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth,[18] He might be thoroughly furnished to execute the office of a Mediator and Surety.[19] Which office He took not unto Himself, but was thereunto called by His Father,[20] who put all power and judgment into His hand, and gave Him commandment to execute the same.[21]

IV. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake;[22] which that He might discharge, He was made under the law,[23] and did perfectly fulfil it;[24] endured most grievous torments immediately in His soul,[25] and most painful sufferings in His body;[26] was crucified, and died,[27] was buried, and remained under the power of death, yet saw no corruption.[28] On the third day He arose from the dead,[29] with the same body in which He suffered,[30] with which also he ascended into heaven, and there sits at the right hand of His Father,[31] making intercession,[32] and shall return, to judge men and angels, at the end of the world.[33]

V. The Lord Jesus, by His perfect obedience, and sacrifice of Himself, which He through the eternal Spirit, once offered up unto God, has fully satisfied the justice of His Father;[34] and purchased, not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for those whom the Father has given unto Him.[35]

VI. Although the work of redemption was not actually wrought by Christ till after His incarnation, yet the virtue, efficacy, and benefits thereof were communicated unto the elect, in all ages successively from the beginning of the world, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifices, wherein He was revealed, and signified to be the seed of the woman which should bruise the serpent's head; and the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world; being yesterday and today the same, and forever.[36]

VII. Christ, in the work of mediation, acts according to both natures, by each nature doing that which is proper to itself;[37] yet, by reason of the unity of the person, that which is proper to one nature is sometimes in Scripture attributed to the person denominated by the other nature.[38]

VIII. To all those for whom Christ has purchased redemption, He does certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same;[39] making intercession for them,[40] and revealing unto them, in and by the word, the mysteries of salvation;[41] effectually persuading them by His Spirit to believe and obey, and governing their hearts by His word and Spirit;[42] overcoming all their enemies by His almighty power and wisdom, in such manner, and ways, as are most consonant to His wonderful and unsearchable dispensation.[43]

BAPTIST:

—LONDON BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH, 1644

XII.
In this Call the Scripture holds forth two special things considerable; first, the call to the Office; secondly, the Office itself. First, that42 none takes this honor but he that is called of God, as was Aaron, so also Christ, it being an action especially of God the Father, whereby a special covenant being made, he ordains his Son to this office: which Covenant is, that43 Christ should be made a Sacrifice for sin, that he shall see his seed, and prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand; which calling therefore contains in itself44 choosing,45 foreordaining,46 sending. Choosing respects the end, foreordaining the means, sending the execution itself,47 all of mere grace, without any condition foreseen either in men, or in Christ himself.

LUTHERAN:

THE AUGSBURG CONFESSION. 1530

Article III: Of the Son of God.

1] Also they teach that the Word, that is, the Son of God, did assume the human nature in 2] the womb of the blessed Virgin Mary, so that there are two natures, the divine and the human, inseparably enjoined in one Person, one Christ, true God and true man, who was born of the Virgin Mary, truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and 3] buried, that He might reconcile the Father unto us, and be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for all actual sins of men.

4] He also descended into hell, and truly rose again the third day; afterward He ascended into heaven that He might sit on the right hand of the Father, and forever reign and have dominion over all creatures, and sanctify 5] them that believe in Him, by sending the Holy Ghost into their hearts, to rule, comfort, and quicken them, and to defend them against the devil and the power of sin.

6] The same Christ shall openly come again to judge the quick and the dead, etc., according to the Apostles' Creed.

ROMAN CATHOLIC:

[The Mass is the same sacrifice of Christ

"And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner," (CCC, 1367).
It is propitiatory (removes the wrath of God)
" . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory," (CCC, 1367).

EASTERN ORTHODOX:

3. The Means of Redemption

Following the words of Christ and St. Paul in the Scriptures, the Holy Fathers use a juridical or legal model to explain how Christ broke down the barrier of sin separating man from God.

The juridical explanation can be expressed in basic terms as follows: At the Fall, death was the sentence for sin. When He died on the Cross, Christ took upon Himself that sentence, but since He was without sin and thus undeserving of the sentence, the sentence was abolished for all mankind, and mankind was freed from the consequences of the primal transgression.

The word “redemption,” of course, comes from this juridical explanation. As Vladimir Lossky points out: “The very idea of redemption assumes a plainly legal aspect: it is the atonement of a slave, the debt paid for those who remained in prison because they could not discharge it. [15] By His death Christ ransomed man out of servitude to sin, and redeemed man from the eternal consequences of sin which had been incurred at the Fall. Christ Himself spoke of this. He said of Himself: The Son of Man came ... to give His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28). In the Epistle to the Hebrews we read: Christ is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Heb. 9:15). And in the book of Apocalypse: Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy Blood (Apoc. 5:9).

Christ paid the debt of sin that man himself could never pay. The Apostle John writes in his first Epistle: He [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (I John 2:2). And the Apostle Paul tells us: Ye are bought with a price (I Cor. 6:20, 7:23). St. Paul even says that Christ was made to be sin for us and made a curse for us (II Cor. 5:21, Gal. 3:13). Being totally without sin, He bore the penalty of sin on our behalf, so that we would be forgiven and purified of sin and freed from its curse. St. Gregory Palamas says: “Since Christ gave His Blood, which was sinless and therefore guiltless, as a ransom for us who were liable to punishment because of our sins, He redeemed us from our guilt. He forgave our sins, tore up the record of them on the Cross and delivered us from the devil’s tyranny. [16]

[Parodite]

So what is this thing with Jesus paying for our sins with his blood, eh?

This phrase usually refers to a minority Protestant view that Jesus' crucifixion was a sin offering in the style of Jewish temple blood sacrifices.

Well.. the somewhat toned-down version of this where "Jesus died so we could live" is still all over the place.

[Marcus]

Well.. the somewhat toned-down version of this where "Jesus died so we could live" is still all over the place.

No great mystery, Rhap . . Jesus claimed to be "the way, the truth, and the life," He claimed that He came that we might "have life," and much more.

Take it or leave it.

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” —C. S. Lewis

Christian churches are divided these days in terms of Liberal/Conservative. Liberal denominations support things such as gay marriage, abortion rights, and female clergy.

Conservative denominations do not.

[Nonc Hilaire]

So what is this thing with Jesus paying for our sins with his blood, eh?

This phrase usually refers to a minority Protestant view that Jesus' crucifixion was a sin offering in the style of Jewish temple blood sacrifices.

Well.. the somewhat toned-down version of this where "Jesus died so we could live" is still all over the place.

Sorta kinda, but the topic is Kapparot, physical blood and the removal of sin in the Jewish context. Blood as a symbol of grace or as a verbal shorthand for the suffering and death of Jesus are not the same as viewing Jesus' physical blood as a Jewish sacrificial offering.

I can't see where Kapparot has anything to do with Christianity. It is probably a degenerate form of Jewish sin offering, or maybe it came from the Samaritans.

[Parodite]

Well.. the somewhat toned-down version of this where "Jesus died so we could live" is still all over the place.

Sorta kinda, but the topic is Kapparot, physical blood and the removal of sin in the Jewish context. Blood as a symbol of grace or as a verbal shorthand for the suffering and death of Jesus are not the same as viewing Jesus' physical blood as a Jewish sacrificial offering.

I can't see where Kapparot has anything to do with Christianity. It is probably a degenerate form of Jewish sin offering, or maybe it came from the Samaritans.

Well the subject title is Blood sacrifice and redemption of sins. Manolo mentioning Kapporot, I suppose, as just one other example with a secretive wink to the sacrifice of Jesus.

Leviticus 16:10
But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

I don't see how one type of bloody sacrifice is less degenerate than another.

[Parodite]

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” —C. S. Lewis

Yes, C.S. Lewis went all bipolar about it. Everything or nothing. The Son of God, or the Devil of Hell.

Christian churches are divided these days in terms of Liberal/Conservative. Liberal denominations support things such as gay marriage, abortion rights, and female clergy.

Conservative denominations do not.

Indeed.. so?

[Parodite]

You fell into a wild river and are almost drowning. A friend, like you with family, friends, and loved ones... sees you fighting for your life and jumps... in an effort to save you. He does save you... but drowns instead. What version would you prefer to describe what happened, what feels better?

a) Man saving a friend from drowning unfortunately died in the effort.
b) Man saved a drowning friend but knew he would not survive his heroic action.

[manolo]

Chicken sacrifice sounds pretty good right now.

Mr P,

Go for it.

Alex.

[manolo]

Well the subject title is Blood sacrifice and redemption of sins. Manolo mentioning Kapporot, I suppose, as just one other example with a secretive wink to the sacrifice of Jesus.

Parodite,

I'm not that wily. The question was genuinely just about this ritual, with some thought about the role of the chicken as 'sin carrier'. Psychologists have a term 'sin eater' which refers to the victim in a dysfunctional family, and maybe that had some subliminal connection to the OP.

To be honest, I think the chicken gets a rough deal all round.

Alex.