Catholic mass and agnosticism
Catholic mass and agnosticism
Folks,
Is a loving God possible?
Having been through (and still in) some grim ill health recently, I have been wondering about something. Attending mass does bring a little comfort in these times, but I'm not a Catholic and cannot accept the catechism. So, what is an agnostic like me doing there at all?
Maybe the Catholics have got it all wrong, indeed all Christians and any kind of theists have it wrong. To the agnostic this is possible, and also possible that some theists have it right. An agnostic can certainly believe in the possibility of a loving God, even hope that there is one. I don't see a problem with that.
Now, if there is a loving God, why should that God be bothered if we have got the names, and perhaps the whole story, wrong. I don't think so for one minute. There may be a loving God beyond any prophecy that we have known, or could know, and this God may be listening to every prayer in every language as a sign of our open hearts.
A psychotherapist friend once said to me “Buddhism and Christianity are the same thing.” I was disconcerted by that at the time, but nowadays it is beginning to feel true. In this case my agnostic participation in the Catholic mass or the Buddhist meditation may be as authentic as anyone's. I participate without exclusive belief in that story, but does it matter?
Is there any sense in these thoughts?
Alex.
Is a loving God possible?
Having been through (and still in) some grim ill health recently, I have been wondering about something. Attending mass does bring a little comfort in these times, but I'm not a Catholic and cannot accept the catechism. So, what is an agnostic like me doing there at all?
Maybe the Catholics have got it all wrong, indeed all Christians and any kind of theists have it wrong. To the agnostic this is possible, and also possible that some theists have it right. An agnostic can certainly believe in the possibility of a loving God, even hope that there is one. I don't see a problem with that.
Now, if there is a loving God, why should that God be bothered if we have got the names, and perhaps the whole story, wrong. I don't think so for one minute. There may be a loving God beyond any prophecy that we have known, or could know, and this God may be listening to every prayer in every language as a sign of our open hearts.
A psychotherapist friend once said to me “Buddhism and Christianity are the same thing.” I was disconcerted by that at the time, but nowadays it is beginning to feel true. In this case my agnostic participation in the Catholic mass or the Buddhist meditation may be as authentic as anyone's. I participate without exclusive belief in that story, but does it matter?
Is there any sense in these thoughts?
Alex.
- Nonc Hilaire
- Posts: 6168
- Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
The RC mass is a beautiful ritual. I am not Catholic, but I often attend for personal healing.
There is no need to intellectualize why you do something you enjoy. Just do it.
There is no need to intellectualize why you do something you enjoy. Just do it.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
Nonc,Nonc Hilaire wrote:The RC mass is a beautiful ritual. I am not Catholic, but I often attend for personal healing.
There is no need to intellectualize why you do something you enjoy. Just do it.
Thanks.
Alex.
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
Alex,
Nonc nailed it. Enjoy! Do what it takes to heal yourself today, the universe will do just fine over the course of eternity without any human opinion or management.
"Man has never managed to create a god superior to himself."
If God could not care less about the labels we apply to him, then he has not even conquered human vanity. He really should know better.... or at least lower his expectations for us. Ever wonder what ants think about Boeing 747's?
Nothing turned me off more during a Philosophy of Religion class at college than listening to the philosophers and the theologians respond to the question of "what time is it?" with different explanations of how the watch was made or by whom.
There are more than a few books out there that compare Christianity to Buddhism. http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Buddha-The- ... 1569754616
Some even speculate that during the lost years of Jesus he was in Asia studying Buddhism. Not sure if that is a Timex or a Rolex.
Some really crazy people even see a lot of Christianity and Buddhism in Ayn Rand's writings.
take care and get well soon!
Nonc nailed it. Enjoy! Do what it takes to heal yourself today, the universe will do just fine over the course of eternity without any human opinion or management.
"Man has never managed to create a god superior to himself."
If God could not care less about the labels we apply to him, then he has not even conquered human vanity. He really should know better.... or at least lower his expectations for us. Ever wonder what ants think about Boeing 747's?
Nothing turned me off more during a Philosophy of Religion class at college than listening to the philosophers and the theologians respond to the question of "what time is it?" with different explanations of how the watch was made or by whom.
There are more than a few books out there that compare Christianity to Buddhism. http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Buddha-The- ... 1569754616
Some even speculate that during the lost years of Jesus he was in Asia studying Buddhism. Not sure if that is a Timex or a Rolex.
Some really crazy people even see a lot of Christianity and Buddhism in Ayn Rand's writings.
take care and get well soon!
Last edited by Simple Minded on Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
NH has already said what is essential, Alex.
I would only add that the truth most essential to your being is already in your heart, and what is in your heart can be recognized in the experience of the rituals and expressions of our imperfect religious heritages, Catholic or otherwise.
Celebrate your life whatever it may be at this time, and be healthy and well.
I would only add that the truth most essential to your being is already in your heart, and what is in your heart can be recognized in the experience of the rituals and expressions of our imperfect religious heritages, Catholic or otherwise.
Celebrate your life whatever it may be at this time, and be healthy and well.
- Zack Morris
- Posts: 2837
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:52 am
- Location: Bayside High School
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
Would a loving God have created a world predicated on pain and suffering?manolo wrote: Is a loving God possible?
It is for moral reasons that I became agnostic.
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
A very understandable perspective, especially among the young. Examine your use of the word predicated. Where are your foci?Zack Morris wrote:Would a loving God have created a world predicated on pain and suffering?manolo wrote: Is a loving God possible?
It is for moral reasons that I became agnostic.
Agnosticism seems to me a very honest perspective.
The human mind has an infinite capacity for self delusion.
Due to evolution which required it, or a God who needed us to be so?
- Endovelico
- Posts: 3038
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
God and religion(s) have only arisen because of our fear of death. We just can't get reconciled with the idea that we may just fade away... Maybe we should take the broader view. There will always be self-awareness, and thus there always be an "I". The fact that a particular "I" disappears is irrelevant, as another "I" will take its place. Not the same reincarnated "I", another completely unrelated "I". But who the hell cares?... Besides, a fresh "I" is a lot better than a worn out "I"... Just imagine all the sex it will get...
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
People who can't live without a God in their life can always create one that meets their own privy desires and preferences.
Hmm.. maybe a nice business idea? http://www.createyourowngod.com. Should be fun
Hmm.. maybe a nice business idea? http://www.createyourowngod.com. Should be fun
Deep down I'm very superficial
- Zack Morris
- Posts: 2837
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:52 am
- Location: Bayside High School
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
I chose the word intentionally. The world does not merely contain suffering, it is predicated on extreme and grotesque suffering. It is the law of nature, and therefore the law of God: predators inflict incalculable pain and suffering on their prey in order to survive. Diseases and simple accidents cause unspeakable pain. We are wired by nature to compete for resources and power, to walk a fine line dividing self-interest from empathy and the common good. By design, too fine a line for everyone to tread without slipping every now and then.Simple Minded wrote: A very understandable perspective, especially among the young. Examine your use of the word predicated. Where are your foci?
An omnipotent God did not need to create such a reality. He could have constructed laws of nature that prevented all of this.
Therefore, the faithful believe in something that is not only silly and implausible, but actually immoral.
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
A very honest assessment. I appreciate it. Thanks Zack. I remember reading Why Bad things Happen to Good People as required reading for a philosophy of religion class. A most unsatisfying book.Zack Morris wrote:I chose the word intentionally. The world does not merely contain suffering, it is predicated on extreme and grotesque suffering. It is the law of nature, and therefore the law of God: predators inflict incalculable pain and suffering on their prey in order to survive. Diseases and simple accidents cause unspeakable pain. We are wired by nature to compete for resources and power, to walk a fine line dividing self-interest from empathy and the common good. By design, too fine a line for everyone to tread without slipping every now and then.Simple Minded wrote: A very understandable perspective, especially among the young. Examine your use of the word predicated. Where are your foci?
An omnipotent God did not need to create such a reality. He could have constructed laws of nature that prevented all of this.
Therefore, the faithful believe in something that is not only silly and implausible, but actually immoral.
So many True Believers strain greatly to validate "their" sense of God with the widely published and greatly marketed version. You know, the square circle, free lunch version. Er, uh, or, was that politicians?
Some look around and see oligarchs, Zionists, right wingers, left wingers, racism, sexism, etc. I just see people being people, who often make stupid choices, until they hit their pain threshold. As I posted previously, self-chosen millstones seem required for most humans to gain good judgment. Imagine how nasty we would be without pain sensors!
If God was everything that the label on the bottle says he is, he should have been able to do a better job with humans. Unless we ourselves need to feel pain to civilize ourselves. Then again, should not evolution have breed all the nastiness out of us by now?
World/humanity as net good or net bad....... Good God, Bad God, no God..... there seems to be an internal filter at work in all the humans I have ever met..... determined by design, evolution, parental DNA, or breast feeding /lack of and spanking /lack of , that is the question.
YMix's former signature about humanity, and Typhoon's current signature about the indifference of the universe are great summaries.
Our youngest cat just came into heat this morning.... If human women did that, my confidence in... and gratitude for the Creator would be much higher.
- Endovelico
- Posts: 3038
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
Maybe. But does that mean that we should just shrug our shoulders and happily move on?... If people, whatever they do, are just being people, who are we to condemn them? Why do we need a code of laws and courts to enforce those laws? Poor Adolf was just being "people" when he gassed 6 million Jews...Simple Minded wrote:Some look around and see oligarchs, Zionists, right wingers, left wingers, racism, sexism, etc. I just see people being people, who often make stupid choices, until they hit their pain threshold.
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
Endo,Endovelico wrote:Maybe. But does that mean that we should just shrug our shoulders and happily move on?... If people, whatever they do, are just being people, who are we to condemn them? Why do we need a code of laws and courts to enforce those laws? Poor Adolf was just being "people" when he gassed 6 million Jews...Simple Minded wrote:Some look around and see oligarchs, Zionists, right wingers, left wingers, racism, sexism, etc. I just see people being people, who often make stupid choices, until they hit their pain threshold.
Thank you.
"We" are now back to who is "we" and what "we" should do about "them."
My thinking is "Fred" will figure out which group he wants to join or oppose and act in accordance with his own interests.
There are an infinite number of "we's" out there, some may only have a couple members. The timeless question of how to draw a potentially infinite number of temporary lines of demarcation.
A subject "we" need to discuss with out ever hoping to arrive at any lasting conclusions since all is in flux. "We" should never expect the discussions to end, since it is management, not solutions.
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
their is suffering however its not predicated on it, thats a rather morbid perspective lacking in recognition of the fun bits of life and focusing just on the ugly bits.Zack Morris wrote:I chose the word intentionally. The world does not merely contain suffering, it is predicated on extreme and grotesque suffering. It is the law of nature, and therefore the law of God: predators inflict incalculable pain and suffering on their prey in order to survive. Diseases and simple accidents cause unspeakable pain. We are wired by nature to compete for resources and power, to walk a fine line dividing self-interest from empathy and the common good. By design, too fine a line for everyone to tread without slipping every now and then.Simple Minded wrote: A very understandable perspective, especially among the young. Examine your use of the word predicated. Where are your foci?
An omnipotent God did not need to create such a reality. He could have constructed laws of nature that prevented all of this.
Therefore, the faithful believe in something that is not only silly and implausible, but actually immoral.
value judgements on these levels are not absolute, they are relative, so the sense of good and bad is actually dependent one upon the other.
all that said, im agnostic but not for any philosophical reasons, just boring old lack of evidence ones.
having opinions on the infinity of time and space and first causes is absurd from the both theist and the scientist, the tiny sprinkles of observational facts from astronomers is interesting but might aswell be fiction in terms of absolute truth.
ultracrepidarian
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
Parodite,
Thanks for that. I've always liked Woody, and really enjoyed the link.
Alex.
Thanks for that. I've always liked Woody, and really enjoyed the link.
Alex.
Re: Catholic mass and agnosticism
Same here Glad you liked it too.manolo wrote:Parodite,
Thanks for that. I've always liked Woody, and really enjoyed the link.
Alex.
Deep down I'm very superficial