Understanding Christian Suffering

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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manolo
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Understanding Christian Suffering

Post by manolo »

Folks,

I have been pondering this issue for some time, and may have the beginnings of an answer.

The question: Why do some Christians turn a hard heart towards the sufferings of others?

First of all, it may seem counter intuitive to the Christian message to take the above attitude, but I think there may be something in the Christian story which justifies it. The answer may lie in the Christian conception of what suffering is.

First of all, let us remember that the Christian message is not a story in the minds of those who believe it. The message is ontological, the fabric of existence, it is our reality. In this message we are told that the 'fall' occurred and from that action the world is corrupted. The evil of the fall is to be found in every particle of matter and every idea that we can imagine. Evil is present and inescapable for the mortal creature. The only hope of release is in the arms of the only saviour, Jesus Christ, leading us cleansed into the next world.

Now, for someone who believes this, suffering in this world takes on a character that the child or common sense pragmatist will not understand. For the Christian, suffering is not to be avoided, indeed it cannot be avoided, it is a gift from the creator, possibly the most precious of gifts we can receive. Given the unavoidability of suffering, why would we put ourselves out to reduce or change this gift of suffering for others? Such tinkering in God's scheme could be pretentious at least and ungodly at most. Indeed, the notion that unalloyed happiness can be had may be the very voice of the demon, or the demon's host of arch devils: atheists, communists, liberals and democrats who lurk and infest this fallen place.

Given these truths, we might begin to understand how the Christian believer can see this world, not as a place where suffering is an avoidable contingecy, but where suffering is the very flame of purification. It could be, according to the Christian, through this flame that all must go.

Alex.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Understanding Christian Suffering

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Big question. People are more inclined to help those whose suffering is similar to the suffering they have experienced themselves. Experiencing suffering is not the same as a mere knowledge or understanding.

Your thought that suffering is purification is correct, but we can be more concrete here. Better to say that shared suffering deepens loving connections. The classic secular image is the shipwreck survivors celebrating on the deck of the lifeboat. The Christian image is the creation of love, which is the ultimate purification.

Scripturally, Hebrews is a great resource. Also, the second essay by Gregory of Nazianzus on the nature of Christ. Starter verses are:
Heb 2:18
For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Heb 5:8
Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered;

God is not obedient to anything, and cannot be tempted. Athough aware of suffering, God could not directly experience it except through Christ. Fathers are aware that childbirth hurts, but any mother will tell you that is not the same as having the experience. Jesus brought the direct experience of our suffering to the Godhead and saved humanity through love.

To my knowledge, Christianity is the only religion which believes that God wept. Awesome.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
Simple Minded

Re: Understanding Christian Suffering

Post by Simple Minded »

Very well said Nonc! Thanks!
manolo
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Re: Understanding Christian Suffering

Post by manolo »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Big question. People are more inclined to help those whose suffering is similar to the suffering they have experienced themselves. Experiencing suffering is not the same as a mere knowledge or understanding.

Your thought that suffering is purification is correct, but we can be more concrete here. Better to say that shared suffering deepens loving connections. The classic secular image is the shipwreck survivors celebrating on the deck of the lifeboat. The Christian image is the creation of love, which is the ultimate purification.

Scripturally, Hebrews is a great resource. Also, the second essay by Gregory of Nazianzus on the nature of Christ. Starter verses are:
Heb 2:18
For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Heb 5:8
Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered;

God is not obedient to anything, and cannot be tempted. Athough aware of suffering, God could not directly experience it except through Christ. Fathers are aware that childbirth hurts, but any mother will tell you that is not the same as having the experience. Jesus brought the direct experience of our suffering to the Godhead and saved humanity through love.

To my knowledge, Christianity is the only religion which believes that God wept. Awesome.
Nonc,

I'm guessing that you write from a Christian perspective, which is most helpful for the OP.

One small question I have relates to our understanding of what God might be. If God cannot directly experience suffering, what would it mean for God to 'weep'? As humans, if we are driven to tears through the suffering of others, we suffer. Why would this be any different for God?

Also this begs the question of whether we can know anything at all about God's emotional state of course (but that's an agnostic question so best put to one side here).

Alex.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Understanding Christian Suffering

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

manolo wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:Big question. People are more inclined to help those whose suffering is similar to the suffering they have experienced themselves. Experiencing suffering is not the same as a mere knowledge or understanding.

Your thought that suffering is purification is correct, but we can be more concrete here. Better to say that shared suffering deepens loving connections. The classic secular image is the shipwreck survivors celebrating on the deck of the lifeboat. The Christian image is the creation of love, which is the ultimate purification.

Scripturally, Hebrews is a great resource. Also, the second essay by Gregory of Nazianzus on the nature of Christ. Starter verses are:
Heb 2:18
For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Heb 5:8
Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered;

God is not obedient to anything, and cannot be tempted. Athough aware of suffering, God could not directly experience it except through Christ. Fathers are aware that childbirth hurts, but any mother will tell you that is not the same as having the experience. Jesus brought the direct experience of our suffering to the Godhead and saved humanity through love.

To my knowledge, Christianity is the only religion which believes that God wept. Awesome.
Nonc,

I'm guessing that you write from a Christian perspective, which is most helpful for the OP.

One small question I have relates to our understanding of what God might be. If God cannot directly experience suffering, what would it mean for God to 'weep'? As humans, if we are driven to tears through the suffering of others, we suffer. Why would this be any different for God?

Also this begs the question of whether we can know anything at all about God's emotional state of course (but that's an agnostic question so best put to one side here).

Alex.
This is the reason why it was necessary for Christ to be born of Mary. Jesus laid aside his divinity aside to experience human existence. God is timeless and cannot experience death. He is omnipotent, and cannot experience temptation. Most of all, God is love and cannot suffer.

Jesus, however, can and did because he was fully human and laid his divinity aside for his earthly sojourn. He refused to take back his divine power during the temptation in the desert. All that he did was human; his only divine connection was through prayer.

Jesus wept when he realized even his Mother, who had experienced a divine revelation, could not fully comprehend that all of mankind was capable of doing what he was doing even when he raised Lazarus from the grave. Jesus opened a door which had closed us off from God, but was disappointed when mankind failed to recognize the totality of his purpose.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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Parodite
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Empathy for God

Post by Parodite »

I think it is a bit poor of Jesus to bring back human tears to his autistic Father. What help is a God that learned to cry? None. Maybe Jesus should have learned his Father to laugh a bit more. We can try make God happier instead of burdening him even more with needless tears. He needs our empathy.
Deep down I'm very superficial
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Empathy for God

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Parodite wrote:I think it is a bit poor of Jesus to bring back human tears to his autistic Father. What help is a God that learned to cry? None. Maybe Jesus should have learned his Father to laugh a bit more. We can try make God happier instead of burdening him even more with needless tears. He needs our empathy.
I think Jesus had a good sense of humor. The gospels show him as witty and clever.

The scenes where Peter tries to walk on water, where Jesus has Peter find the coin for the temple tax in a fish's mouth, the bad fishing day where all the fish were on the *other* side of the boat, and where Jesus has an entire cohort of Roman soldiers panic and fall all over themselves are actually pretty funny. The authors of the gospels were just not good comedy writers.

If Koiné Greek had emoticons there would probably be lots of smilies :D .
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
manolo
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Re: Understanding Christian Suffering

Post by manolo »

Nonc Hilaire wrote: This is the reason why it was necessary for Christ to be born of Mary. Jesus laid aside his divinity aside to experience human existence. God is timeless and cannot experience death. He is omnipotent, and cannot experience temptation. Most of all, God is love and cannot suffer.

Jesus, however, can and did because he was fully human and laid his divinity aside for his earthly sojourn. He refused to take back his divine power during the temptation in the desert. All that he did was human; his only divine connection was through prayer.

Jesus wept when he realized even his Mother, who had experienced a divine revelation, could not fully comprehend that all of mankind was capable of doing what he was doing even when he raised Lazarus from the grave. Jesus opened a door which had closed us off from God, but was disappointed when mankind failed to recognize the totality of his purpose.
Nonc,

Rilke wrote a very beautiful poem in which he talked of taking a glass of water to God during the night, just in case he needed one.

I think Rilke was trying to open the door.

Alex.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Understanding Christian Suffering

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Thank you, Alex. I had not read Wilke before. A most welcome present!

“You, God, who live next door--

If at times, through the long night, I trouble you
with my urgent knocking--
this is why: I hear you breathe so seldom.
I know you're all alone in that room.
If you should be thirsty, there's no one
to get you a glass of water.
I wait listening, always. Just give me a sign!
I'm right here...

Ranier Maria Wilke, Rilke's Book of Hours: Love Poems to God
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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Parodite
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Re: Empathy for God

Post by Parodite »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Parodite wrote:I think it is a bit poor of Jesus to bring back human tears to his autistic Father. What help is a God that learned to cry? None. Maybe Jesus should have learned his Father to laugh a bit more. We can try make God happier instead of burdening him even more with needless tears. He needs our empathy.
I think Jesus had a good sense of humor. The gospels show him as witty and clever.

The scenes where Peter tries to walk on water, where Jesus has Peter find the coin for the temple tax in a fish's mouth, the bad fishing day where all the fish were on the *other* side of the boat, and where Jesus has an entire cohort of Roman soldiers panic and fall all over themselves are actually pretty funny. The authors of the gospels were just not good comedy writers.

If Koiné Greek had emoticons there would probably be lots of smilies :D .
On the other hand.. without smilies things can be even funnier, as in the video of Woody Allen where he says at 3:34: "Yea I have said that many times". :lol:
Deep down I'm very superficial
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