The meaning of liberty

[manolo]

Folks,

This topic popped up in a thread and it seems to be such an important topic in it's own right that a new thread is called for.

Lots of issues that we discuss here on the forum have 'liberty' at the centre of the debate. So maybe we should have a look at how the word is used and what we mean by it?

For me 'liberty' is close to the word 'freedom'. It's hard to see how we could talk about having liberty if we didn't have freedom. I see liberty as being able to do something, being free to do it and also able to do it. My view of liberty is practical and realistic in everyday terms.

For example: A person is at liberty to travel abroad if they have a passport and travel money; if they don't have a passport they will be turned back at the airport. If they don't have travel money they won't get to booking a flight (or even purchasing a passport). I see no sense in saying that a person is at liberty to do something which they obviously cannot do. If we are confined to a wheelchair we are not at liberty to walk upstairs.

There may be some folks who think of liberty in a more ideological or political way, or in ways I haven't thought of, and such discussion would be an object of this thread.

What is the meaning of liberty?

Alex.

[monster_gardener]

Thank You Very Much for the Thread, Alex Manolo eThinker....

IIRC Long ago, far away in different Blogalaxy, this topic was debated by some of the bloggers here including Tinker and Monster Gardener.

Tinker contended that in addition to having the liberty to go nude in public, he should have the freedom defecate in public.

To which Monster Gardener replied, that the latter would be free dung rather than freedom....

Some gardeners like getting free manure but I prefer composted coffee grounds, egg shells, autumn leaves & grass clippings.......

[Nonc Hilaire]

Freedom is the ability to do as one chooses without restraint, but liberty is the right to self-direction within society.

[manolo]

Freedom is the ability to do as one chooses without restraint, but liberty is the right to self-direction within society.

Nonc,

As I understand it, none of us have the ability to do what we choose without restraint, as we are not God. So, I see us as restrained by many contingencies, such as gravity for example. The right to 'self direction within society' seems to have similar limitations, sometimes physical, like stealing from a neighbour and getting your head kicked in by them as result, or moral such as not wanting to steal from your neighbour because you don't want your neighbour to lose out.

The limitations seem to me to be similar, in that they are limitations, but there are indeed fine distinctions.

I would say that a person without liberty would lose some freedom and a person without freedom would be unable to make use of liberty anyway.

This is an interesting topic, for me anyway.

Alex.

[manolo]

To which Monster Gardener replied, that the latter would be free dung rather than freedom....

monster,

I always enjoy your posts, as they bring innocent humour to rather lugubrious topics.

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Grumbling about gravity. It seems like everybody is on my case to lose weight these days.

[Simple Minded]

Grumbling about gravity. It seems like everybody is on my case to lose weight these days.

Tell them to bugger off! Massive people are naturally more attractive!

Satellites always blame someone else's gravitational field for their lack of free will!

Crybabies!

[Nonc Hilaire]

[noddy]

anyone that disagrees with me is ideological or political and all they do is highlight my own perfection.

liberty is the grace of being in my presence.

[manolo]

Grumbling about gravity. It seems like everybody is on my case to lose weight these days.

Nonc,

Thanks for bringing some gravitas to a thread that was in danger of becoming .......

Alex.

[Simple Minded]

anyone that disagrees with me is ideological or political and all they do is highlight my own perfection.

liberty is the grace of being in my presence.

Even though it defies the laws of physics, somehow I find your attitude to be every bit as attractive as Nonc's mass......

Where did I put my old Nu Mod text book?

[Simple Minded]

Grumbling about gravity. It seems like everybody is on my case to lose weight these days.

Nonc,

Thanks for bringing some gravitas to a thread that was in danger of becoming .......

Alex.

If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....

[manolo]

If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....

SM,

Now that would be a passion killer.

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....

SM,

Now that would be a passion killer.

Alex.

Dick Cheney sounds like slang for an STD.

[manolo]

If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....

SM,

Now that would be a passion killer.

Alex.

Dick Cheney sounds like slang for an STD.

nonc,

I believe that I am at liberty to insert a satisfying ad hominem at this point (regarding Dick, not your goodself), but will resist the temptation.

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....

SM,

Now that would be a passion killer.

Alex.

Dick Cheney sounds like slang for an STD.

nonc,

I believe that I am at liberty to insert a satisfying ad hominem at this point (regarding Dick, not your goodself), but will resist the temptation.

Alex.

Liberty. Freedom restrained by societal mores and the greater good.

[Parodite]

But Dick Cheney can lead to a Needy Chick.

[manolo]

Liberty. Freedom restrained by societal mores and the greater good.

Nonc,

Totally agree about the 'societal mores'. I once worked in a small all male office in which all the guys read porn magazines in the lunch break. I didn't want to join them (too creepy for me), but these uber permissive workmates were suddenly not permissive al all when I demurred from the sessions.

A very difficult time.

Yes, going against the grain of any group is a time when we learn about freedom.

Alex.

[Parodite]

It maybe helps to look at the opposites of liberty and freedom. They don't just hang there as singulars.

[Endovelico]

We can't look at liberty on a purely individual manner. Liberty has to be considered in an individual/community combination. If we try to look at it on a purely individual basis we will land in the type of crap we call crisis. If we look at it on a purely collective basis, we risk landing on the Soviet Union...