The meaning of liberty
The meaning of liberty
Folks,
This topic popped up in a thread and it seems to be such an important topic in it's own right that a new thread is called for.
Lots of issues that we discuss here on the forum have 'liberty' at the centre of the debate. So maybe we should have a look at how the word is used and what we mean by it?
For me 'liberty' is close to the word 'freedom'. It's hard to see how we could talk about having liberty if we didn't have freedom. I see liberty as being able to do something, being free to do it and also able to do it. My view of liberty is practical and realistic in everyday terms.
For example: A person is at liberty to travel abroad if they have a passport and travel money; if they don't have a passport they will be turned back at the airport. If they don't have travel money they won't get to booking a flight (or even purchasing a passport). I see no sense in saying that a person is at liberty to do something which they obviously cannot do. If we are confined to a wheelchair we are not at liberty to walk upstairs.
There may be some folks who think of liberty in a more ideological or political way, or in ways I haven't thought of, and such discussion would be an object of this thread.
What is the meaning of liberty?
Alex.
This topic popped up in a thread and it seems to be such an important topic in it's own right that a new thread is called for.
Lots of issues that we discuss here on the forum have 'liberty' at the centre of the debate. So maybe we should have a look at how the word is used and what we mean by it?
For me 'liberty' is close to the word 'freedom'. It's hard to see how we could talk about having liberty if we didn't have freedom. I see liberty as being able to do something, being free to do it and also able to do it. My view of liberty is practical and realistic in everyday terms.
For example: A person is at liberty to travel abroad if they have a passport and travel money; if they don't have a passport they will be turned back at the airport. If they don't have travel money they won't get to booking a flight (or even purchasing a passport). I see no sense in saying that a person is at liberty to do something which they obviously cannot do. If we are confined to a wheelchair we are not at liberty to walk upstairs.
There may be some folks who think of liberty in a more ideological or political way, or in ways I haven't thought of, and such discussion would be an object of this thread.
What is the meaning of liberty?
Alex.
- monster_gardener
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Freedom vs. Free Dung.....
Thank You Very Much for the Thread, Alex Manolo eThinker....
IIRC Long ago, far away in different Blogalaxy, this topic was debated by some of the bloggers here including Tinker and Monster Gardener.
Tinker contended that in addition to having the liberty to go nude in public, he should have the freedom defecate in public.
To which Monster Gardener replied, that the latter would be free dung rather than freedom....
Some gardeners like getting free manure but I prefer composted coffee grounds, egg shells, autumn leaves & grass clippings.......
IIRC Long ago, far away in different Blogalaxy, this topic was debated by some of the bloggers here including Tinker and Monster Gardener.
Tinker contended that in addition to having the liberty to go nude in public, he should have the freedom defecate in public.
To which Monster Gardener replied, that the latter would be free dung rather than freedom....
Some gardeners like getting free manure but I prefer composted coffee grounds, egg shells, autumn leaves & grass clippings.......
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
- Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The meaning of liberty
Freedom is the ability to do as one chooses without restraint, but liberty is the right to self-direction within society.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: The meaning of liberty
Nonc,Nonc Hilaire wrote:Freedom is the ability to do as one chooses without restraint, but liberty is the right to self-direction within society.
As I understand it, none of us have the ability to do what we choose without restraint, as we are not God. So, I see us as restrained by many contingencies, such as gravity for example. The right to 'self direction within society' seems to have similar limitations, sometimes physical, like stealing from a neighbour and getting your head kicked in by them as result, or moral such as not wanting to steal from your neighbour because you don't want your neighbour to lose out.
The limitations seem to me to be similar, in that they are limitations, but there are indeed fine distinctions.
I would say that a person without liberty would lose some freedom and a person without freedom would be unable to make use of liberty anyway.
This is an interesting topic, for me anyway.
Alex.
Re: Freedom vs. Free Dung.....
monster,monster_gardener wrote: To which Monster Gardener replied, that the latter would be free dung rather than freedom....
I always enjoy your posts, as they bring innocent humour to rather lugubrious topics.
Alex.
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Re: The meaning of liberty
Grumbling about gravity. It seems like everybody is on my case to lose weight these days.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: The meaning of liberty
Tell them to bugger off! Massive people are naturally more attractive!Nonc Hilaire wrote:Grumbling about gravity. It seems like everybody is on my case to lose weight these days.
Satellites always blame someone else's gravitational field for their lack of free will!
Crybabies!
- Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The meaning of liberty
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: The meaning of liberty
anyone that disagrees with me is ideological or political and all they do is highlight my own perfection.
liberty is the grace of being in my presence.
liberty is the grace of being in my presence.
ultracrepidarian
Re: The meaning of liberty
Nonc,Nonc Hilaire wrote:Grumbling about gravity. It seems like everybody is on my case to lose weight these days.
Thanks for bringing some gravitas to a thread that was in danger of becoming .......
Alex.
Re: The meaning of liberty
Even though it defies the laws of physics, somehow I find your attitude to be every bit as attractive as Nonc's mass......noddy wrote:anyone that disagrees with me is ideological or political and all they do is highlight my own perfection.
liberty is the grace of being in my presence.
Where did I put my old Nu Mod text book?
Last edited by Simple Minded on Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The meaning of liberty
If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....manolo wrote:Nonc,Nonc Hilaire wrote:Grumbling about gravity. It seems like everybody is on my case to lose weight these days.
Thanks for bringing some gravitas to a thread that was in danger of becoming .......
Alex.
Re: The meaning of liberty
SM,Simple Minded wrote: If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....
Now that would be a passion killer.
Alex.
- Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The meaning of liberty
Dick Cheney sounds like slang for an STD.manolo wrote:SM,Simple Minded wrote: If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....
Now that would be a passion killer.
Alex.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: The meaning of liberty
nonc,Nonc Hilaire wrote:Dick Cheney sounds like slang for an STD.manolo wrote:SM,Simple Minded wrote: If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....
Now that would be a passion killer.
Alex.
I believe that I am at liberty to insert a satisfying ad hominem at this point (regarding Dick, not your goodself), but will resist the temptation.
Alex.
- Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The meaning of liberty
Liberty. Freedom restrained by societal mores and the greater good.manolo wrote:nonc,Nonc Hilaire wrote:Dick Cheney sounds like slang for an STD.manolo wrote:SM,Simple Minded wrote: If only we could get Dick Cheney to post on this thread.....
Now that would be a passion killer.
Alex.
I believe that I am at liberty to insert a satisfying ad hominem at this point (regarding Dick, not your goodself), but will resist the temptation.
Alex.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: The meaning of liberty
But Dick Cheney can lead to a Needy Chick.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Re: The meaning of liberty
Nonc,Nonc Hilaire wrote: Liberty. Freedom restrained by societal mores and the greater good.
Totally agree about the 'societal mores'. I once worked in a small all male office in which all the guys read porn magazines in the lunch break. I didn't want to join them (too creepy for me), but these uber permissive workmates were suddenly not permissive al all when I demurred from the sessions.
A very difficult time.
Yes, going against the grain of any group is a time when we learn about freedom.
Alex.
Re: The meaning of liberty
It maybe helps to look at the opposites of liberty and freedom. They don't just hang there as singulars.
Deep down I'm very superficial
- Endovelico
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Re: The meaning of liberty
We can't look at liberty on a purely individual manner. Liberty has to be considered in an individual/community combination. If we try to look at it on a purely individual basis we will land in the type of crap we call crisis. If we look at it on a purely collective basis, we risk landing on the Soviet Union...