On moral decay

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Parodite
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On moral decay

Post by Parodite »

Somebody points out an atrocity by A, then somebody else points "in defense" to another atrocity by B, or C. Back and forth finger pointing where all are responsible and guilty.. or none.

Adopt and cheer-lead the view of psychopath leaders who perceive the world only in terms of geo-politics, power, money, self-interest.

Or just stay home because nothing except your own self-interest could compel you to do something abroad. You see somebody drown next door? Don't try to help and take a risk as you yourself might get hurt. And btw... others could be provoked and get very angry at you, as they wanted that person to drown. Don't even bother. It is not worth even a small effort and risk just to save a few when thousands are drowning.

Beware the cheer-leaders mentioned above; there are those who will always make sure that whatever you do.. they paint you as a war-monger who should mind his own business. Even if your intended help concerns victims of a psychopath dictatorship like Assad in Syria or a killing gang like ISIS.

Don't bother about victims of your own behavior.. for as long as your intentions are good it is OK. You can make as many "collateral victims" as are needed. Drones do nicely in that respect. You meant well.. so who cares!

Or just do a body count without paying attention to intention and other factors; just rank the biggest killer as the guilty one and turn all the others a blind eye. All in defense of the psycho of your choice; the quality of your argument doesn't matter.

Psychopaths are very good at creating cheer-leading crowds. But so are ideologies. Like psychopaths who usually lack the ability to empathize and are less burdened by fears... ideologies also lack these emotions. They lack any emotion. Cheer-leading an ideology is like cheer-leading a psychopath. The blind leading the blind.

Claim that a weather-proof morality can only be firmly grounded in a supernatural God of sorts. Rationalize away moral contradictions and hazards that are the result of that claim. Gods ways are mysterious enough.. right? That will do. Just continue cheer-leading another psychopath; a divine and untouchable one in this case. The only one that can never be held accountable, never guilty of anything. Nothing better than cheer-leading a winner who cannot even once lose.

Just read the news, any news source. Facts and numbers. Analyses where politics, power and money are usually the context in which things are explained.. given meaning. Sounds fair enough, but it is the map of the psychopath navigating his dehumanized world. Empathy is for the suckers who read between the lines or outside the story entirely. Maybe we better just be those suckers? :roll: :)
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noddy
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Re: On moral decay

Post by noddy »

im not much into interventionism myself, the outcomes of saving the other from themselves never seem to be consistently better than leaving em alone to work it out for themselves, or not, as the case may be.

which is another way of saying i feel the following alternative is not a full picture
Or just stay home because nothing except your own self-interest could compel you to do something abroad. You see somebody drown next door? Don't try to help and take a risk as you yourself might get hurt. And btw... others could be provoked and get very angry at you, as they wanted that person to drown. Don't even bother. It is not worth even a small effort and risk just to save a few when thousands are drowning.
the people that have helped me in my lifes down points never did crude interventions, a gentle nudge here and there with respect behind it was so much more effective.

the softly softly catchy monkey approach is the correct one for dealing with long term problems, if your not getting results fast enough for some ideologues, that their problem.
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Parodite
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Re: On moral decay

Post by Parodite »

I'm talking about victims of raw violence or deadly circumstance people get trapped in. I don't think people drowning is a long term problem. They need immediate help, what is wrong with sending some? If available.. of course. And if the intervention is done in a way that it actually saves some people.. and not cause more to drown in the process or aftermath. That is just common sense and professionalism. To assess what you can.. and cannot do, try assess risks etc.
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manolo
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Re: On moral decay

Post by manolo »

Parodite wrote:I'm talking about victims of raw violence or deadly circumstance people get trapped in. I don't think people drowning is a long term problem. They need immediate help, what is wrong with sending some? If available.. of course. And if the intervention is done in a way that it actually saves some people.. and not cause more to drown in the process or aftermath. That is just common sense and professionalism. To assess what you can.. and cannot do, try assess risks etc.
Parodite,

I don't think we assess anything when called.

Alex.
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Parodite
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Re: On moral decay

Post by Parodite »

manolo wrote:
Parodite wrote:I'm talking about victims of raw violence or deadly circumstance people get trapped in. I don't think people drowning is a long term problem. They need immediate help, what is wrong with sending some? If available.. of course. And if the intervention is done in a way that it actually saves some people.. and not cause more to drown in the process or aftermath. That is just common sense and professionalism. To assess what you can.. and cannot do, try assess risks etc.
Parodite,

I don't think we assess anything when called.

Alex.
You mean thus far it never really happened?
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kmich
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Re: On moral decay

Post by kmich »

Assessment regarding action in the face of suffering is essential which is problematic in an externally directed, unreflective age. That accounting requires a depth, but more often than not involves only our efforts to make ourselves feel better with sloppy sentimentality, reactive righteousness, and a myopic, moral reasoning in order to distance ourselves from the horrors that offend our sensibilities.

The closer I have been to what people call evils, the better I have been able to understand them and to ameliorate some of their terrors, but, at the same time, the less I have been able to separate or distinguish myself from their often encompassing darkness.

Effective action in such situations calls for an assessment that is free of self-serving justifications that would only be trivial and swept away in all the complexity, ambiguity, and messiness. For me, it has demanded a faith in redemption that appears absurd in the face of all the tempests of malevolent confusion. I have been only able to express it by actions that arise from my silence. I cannot explain or justify it.
Simple Minded

Re: On moral decay

Post by Simple Minded »

kmich wrote:Assessment regarding action in the face of suffering is essential which is problematic in an externally directed, unreflective age. That accounting requires a depth, but more often than not involves only our efforts to make ourselves feel better with sloppy sentimentality, reactive righteousness, and a myopic, moral reasoning in order to distance ourselves from the horrors that offend our sensibilities.

The closer I have been to what people call evils, the better I have been able to understand them and to ameliorate some of their terrors, but, at the same time, the less I have been able to separate or distinguish myself from their often encompassing darkness.

Effective action in such situations calls for an assessment that is free of self-serving justifications that would only be trivial and swept away in all the complexity, ambiguity, and messiness. For me, it has demanded a faith in redemption that appears absurd in the face of all the tempests of malevolent confusion. I have been only able to express it by actions that arise from my silence. I cannot explain or justify it.
kmich,

well said. It sounds like you are describing the small, still, voice within.

I wonder what percentage of people have never experienced it, and therefore doubt it's existence?
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kmich
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Re: On moral decay

Post by kmich »

Simple Minded wrote:
kmich wrote:Assessment regarding action in the face of suffering is essential which is problematic in an externally directed, unreflective age. That accounting requires a depth, but more often than not involves only our efforts to make ourselves feel better with sloppy sentimentality, reactive righteousness, and a myopic, moral reasoning in order to distance ourselves from the horrors that offend our sensibilities.

The closer I have been to what people call evils, the better I have been able to understand them and to ameliorate some of their terrors, but, at the same time, the less I have been able to separate or distinguish myself from their often encompassing darkness.

Effective action in such situations calls for an assessment that is free of self-serving justifications that would only be trivial and swept away in all the complexity, ambiguity, and messiness. For me, it has demanded a faith in redemption that appears absurd in the face of all the tempests of malevolent confusion. I have been only able to express it by actions that arise from my silence. I cannot explain or justify it.
kmich,

well said. It sounds like you are describing the small, still, voice within.

I wonder what percentage of people have never experienced it, and therefore doubt it's existence?
I don't know, SM. To posit existence requires defined conditions and qualifications. I am unable to do that with this experience.
Simple Minded

Re: On moral decay

Post by Simple Minded »

kmich wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
kmich wrote:Assessment regarding action in the face of suffering is essential which is problematic in an externally directed, unreflective age. That accounting requires a depth, but more often than not involves only our efforts to make ourselves feel better with sloppy sentimentality, reactive righteousness, and a myopic, moral reasoning in order to distance ourselves from the horrors that offend our sensibilities.

The closer I have been to what people call evils, the better I have been able to understand them and to ameliorate some of their terrors, but, at the same time, the less I have been able to separate or distinguish myself from their often encompassing darkness.

Effective action in such situations calls for an assessment that is free of self-serving justifications that would only be trivial and swept away in all the complexity, ambiguity, and messiness. For me, it has demanded a faith in redemption that appears absurd in the face of all the tempests of malevolent confusion. I have been only able to express it by actions that arise from my silence. I cannot explain or justify it.
kmich,

well said. It sounds like you are describing the small, still, voice within.

I wonder what percentage of people have never experienced it, and therefore doubt it's existence?
I don't know, SM. To posit existence requires defined conditions and qualifications. I am unable to do that with this experience.
I think the personal lack of that experience may explain a lot of what is generally considered "uncivilized" behavior in a given individual.

In my experience, some people are not necessarily evil or mean or selfish or even narcissistic, but just seem to lack a "moral compass" or "conscious" for the lack of any better terms. Much like a furnace without a thermostat or an engine with out a governor. No feedback mechanism results in lack of self-control.

Is it a genetic problem, ie: nature or hardware, or a programming problem ie: nurture or software, or a combination? Tis a mystery to me.
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kmich
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Re: On moral decay

Post by kmich »

Simple Minded wrote:I think the personal lack of that experience may explain a lot of what is generally considered "uncivilized" behavior in a given individual.

In my experience, some people are not necessarily evil or mean or selfish or even narcissistic, but just seem to lack a "moral compass" or "conscious" for the lack of any better terms. Much like a furnace without a thermostat or an engine with out a governor. No feedback mechanism results in lack of self-control.

Is it a genetic problem, ie: nature or hardware, or a programming problem ie: nurture or software, or a combination? Tis a mystery to me.
People just become dangerously confused, SM. Our thinking can only lead us to doubt, but as Kierkegaard pointed out, doubt without faith leads to despair and bewilderment. Faust, in this way, becomes vulnerable to the dangerous materialism and nihilism of Mephisto as do the rest of us.

Or we can, in spite of our doubts, assent to what we want to believe to hide from the yawning abyss of meaninglessness before us. In either case, we falsify the paradox and real, tragic nature of our existence. Such self deceit disorients our moral compasses and is the source of much of our confusion and the harm we inflict.

The temptations to find rest in either positive or cynical views are difficult to avoid, but to witness our true nature means to receive a faith that holds meaninglessness, nothingness, in its embrace while respecting its truth. Emptiness and revelation are indeed spiritual partners. Allowing ourselves to be suspended in aporia can be very disconcerting; but, nevertheless, it can open the heart to the ineffable presence of God.
manolo
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Re: On moral decay

Post by manolo »

Parodite wrote:
manolo wrote:
Parodite wrote:I'm talking about victims of raw violence or deadly circumstance people get trapped in. I don't think people drowning is a long term problem. They need immediate help, what is wrong with sending some? If available.. of course. And if the intervention is done in a way that it actually saves some people.. and not cause more to drown in the process or aftermath. That is just common sense and professionalism. To assess what you can.. and cannot do, try assess risks etc.
Parodite,

I don't think we assess anything when called.

Alex.
You mean thus far it never really happened?
Parodite,

I'm thinking that when we are called to act we act first and reason later. Much assessing is justification after the fact IMHO.

Alex.
Simple Minded

Re: On moral decay

Post by Simple Minded »

kmich wrote:
People just become dangerously confused, SM. Our thinking can only lead us to doubt, but as Kierkegaard pointed out, doubt without faith leads to despair and bewilderment. Faust, in this way, becomes vulnerable to the dangerous materialism and nihilism of Mephisto as do the rest of us.

Or we can, in spite of our doubts, assent to what we want to believe to hide from the yawning abyss of meaninglessness before us. In either case, we falsify the paradox and real, tragic nature of our existence. Such self deceit disorients our moral compasses and is the source of much of our confusion and the harm we inflict.

The temptations to find rest in either positive or cynical views are difficult to avoid, but to witness our true nature means to receive a faith that holds meaninglessness, nothingness, in its embrace while respecting its truth. Emptiness and revelation are indeed spiritual partners. Allowing ourselves to be suspended in aporia can be very disconcerting; but, nevertheless, it can open the heart to the ineffable presence of God.
Well said kmich.

In more simple minded terms, the human mind seems to possess an infinite capacity for rationalization and self-delusion. We can access both thru either thinking or faith.

IMSMO, the existential angst of humans is an interesting phenomena, common, but not universal. I know people of unquestionable faith, who are quite unhappy. The perceived cause of that unhappiness seems specific to each individual.

The one size fits all solution to human happiness/nirvana/self-realization-actualization/knowledge of God (language gets very imprecise) does not seem, to date, to have been bottled and labeled.

As an example, I have known more than a few Catholics/Baptists, who seem unhappy, and who seem, temperamentally, seem better suited to Buddhism, and whom, if they looked on another book shelf for information, IMSMO, they might gain a perspective that would lead to a much richer and satisfying life. But their pride, vanity, or their peer group required definition of “truth” won’t allow them that mental flexibility.

Each person seems to have a specific pain threshold that they must cross on their own before they attain a level of “open mindedness” (for lack of a better term), and seek/find their “cure.” Observers can only guess at the internal state of those they observe. Prescribers are rampant, but I think the healing is always performed internally.

These are interesting states, very subjective, and hard to put into words. The words one may find useful or comforting, may not appeal to others.

A fascinating journey that often seems depreciated by too much discussion and specification.
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kmich
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Re: On moral decay

Post by kmich »

Simple Minded wrote:
kmich wrote:
People just become dangerously confused, SM. Our thinking can only lead us to doubt, but as Kierkegaard pointed out, doubt without faith leads to despair and bewilderment. Faust, in this way, becomes vulnerable to the dangerous materialism and nihilism of Mephisto as do the rest of us.

Or we can, in spite of our doubts, assent to what we want to believe to hide from the yawning abyss of meaninglessness before us. In either case, we falsify the paradox and real, tragic nature of our existence. Such self deceit disorients our moral compasses and is the source of much of our confusion and the harm we inflict.

The temptations to find rest in either positive or cynical views are difficult to avoid, but to witness our true nature means to receive a faith that holds meaninglessness, nothingness, in its embrace while respecting its truth. Emptiness and revelation are indeed spiritual partners. Allowing ourselves to be suspended in aporia can be very disconcerting; but, nevertheless, it can open the heart to the ineffable presence of God.
Well said kmich.

In more simple minded terms, the human mind seems to possess an infinite capacity for rationalization and self-delusion. We can access both thru either thinking or faith.

IMSMO, the existential angst of humans is an interesting phenomena, common, but not universal. I know people of unquestionable faith, who are quite unhappy. The perceived cause of that unhappiness seems specific to each individual.

The one size fits all solution to human happiness/nirvana/self-realization-actualization/knowledge of God (language gets very imprecise) does not seem, to date, to have been bottled and labeled.

As an example, I have known more than a few Catholics/Baptists, who seem unhappy, and who seem, temperamentally, seem better suited to Buddhism, and whom, if they looked on another book shelf for information, IMSMO, they might gain a perspective that would lead to a much richer and satisfying life. But their pride, vanity, or their peer group required definition of “truth” won’t allow them that mental flexibility.

Each person seems to have a specific pain threshold that they must cross on their own before they attain a level of “open mindedness” (for lack of a better term), and seek/find their “cure.” Observers can only guess at the internal state of those they observe. Prescribers are rampant, but I think the healing is always performed internally.

These are interesting states, very subjective, and hard to put into words. The words one may find useful or comforting, may not appeal to others.

A fascinating journey that often seems depreciated by too much discussion and specification.
Thanks for your thoughts, SM.

Happiness cannot be “bottled” in the containers of conviction nor can it arise from a set of world views, regardless of what they may be. If we contract around anything, views, religions, secular assumptions, etc., while we may end up satisfied that we are somehow “right,” we will remain alienated and sick in our hearts, a malady that we are typically loathed to admit. We are created to much more than our understandings and assumptions. As Meister Eckhart once wrote in asserting the essentials of apophatic divinity “to be full of things is to be empty of God, to be empty of things is to be full of God.” We are meant to be full of the ground from which we arose, not from our satisfying notions. Open mindedness is hollow vanity without an open heart.

While I have my own path, I have witnessed many others, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews, etc. whose path, if it brings them and their world happiness and peace, is truly mine to support and to celebrate and not to judge. There are so many of such people in the world, even in the most desperate of human circumstances. Such souls, regardless of their "religion," have nurtured my own faith beyond measure.

To return to the subject of the thread, moral decay is inevitable if we attempt to attach ourselves to what we believe. Ethics are fulfilled in our actions in the moments we are presented with, not with what we have been taught, what we happen to think. We fulfill the purpose of our coming into this world, God’s will, in what we say and do, and we either cause ourselves or others to enter suffering and confusion or we don’t. To live an ethical life, one must be willing to act, but, in doing so confront the inevitable error that is integral to any action we take. Consequently, repentance is the only antidote for our tendency to wander off into our vain, notional wildernesses, and steadies us in our continued actions in fulfillment of eternal purposes:
When we confess to God, therefore, we are not like a servant that gives account to his master for the administration entrusted to him because his master could not manage everything or be everywhere at once. Nor when we confess are we like one who confides in a friend to whom sooner or later he reveals things that his friend did not previously know. No, much of what you are able to keep hidden in darkness you only first get to know by revealing it to the all-knowing One. The all-knowing One does not get to know something about those who confess, rather those who confess find out something about themselves…

- Soren Kierkegaard
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Parodite
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Re: On moral decay

Post by Parodite »

kmich wrote:Happiness cannot be “bottled” in the containers of conviction nor can it arise from a set of world views, regardless of what they may be.
Indeed. Interesting in that regard:

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Simple Minded

Re: On moral decay

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
kmich wrote:Happiness cannot be “bottled” in the containers of conviction nor can it arise from a set of world views, regardless of what they may be.
Indeed. Interesting in that regard:

XgRlrBl-7Yg
Parodite,

Excellent post. People do not react to reality, but to their perceptions/interpretations of reality. Fred can choose to replay an hour of joy or pain as a continual mental movie, and therefore profoundly affect his quality of life for the rest of his life.

Experience X can be perceived as positive, negative, or neutral depending upon the filters and standards one chooses to employ.

"If one does not train one's mind to function as a filter, it will function as a garbage can."

"The mind is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master."

Those who demand that the behavior of others is responsible for their happiness, will always be miserable.

Many people remain teenagers for life.
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