Ideology and personal change

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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manolo
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Ideology and personal change

Post by manolo »

Folks,

I have been posting on internet debate forums for a few years now, and there is something that I have noticed. We may discuss a wide range of issues and factual situations, but it is very rare indeed for a poster's ideology to change over time, and this includes my own. The consistency of personal ideology, particularly when anchored in a religion or other universal belief system, is remarkable.

Having been a teacher, and attended universities as a student, I have seen cases of people changing their ideas, indicating that these ideas have not hardened into a world view (this I call an ideology) although a person may be more or less sympathetic to certain ideas which appeal to their emotions. I'm thinking that the hardening is some kind of emotional process.

It could be that posting on the internet, which is the act of publishing, attracts folks with already fixed views that they wish to share with like minds, or with anyone. For some this will be a kind of promulgation. However, publishing does not have to be like this. Jack Kerouac famously wrote, “All I have to offer the world is my own confusion.” which I think is a bravely put confession.

I would hope that my ideology could change somewhat in the face of reasoned argument or an inspiring person. There are some deep axioms, such as the value of kindness and generosity, which I think I would hold to, but there may be ways of developing such axioms that I haven't yet thought of.

How about you?

Alex.
noddy
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Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by noddy »

being perfect i have not had any need to change and any attempt to do so would be a crime against nature.

im not sure peoples priorities change very much but as you get older and uglier you get better at living those priorities, so the approach can change.
ultracrepidarian
Simple Minded

Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by Simple Minded »

Welcome back Alex. I think people are changed by inspirational people all the time.

Not so much by bloggers since the medium itself thrives on misinterpretation and imagination. Too little interaction and accuracy to inspire.

American culture, European culture, the left, the right, fair, justice......... infinite interpretations, constantly changing, highly subjective.
Simple Minded

Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:being perfect i have not had any need to change and any attempt to do so would be a crime against nature.

im not sure peoples priorities change very much but as you get older and uglier you get better at living those priorities, so the approach can change.
I think you're perfect too Bro. Not sure if that word means the same thing in SimpleMindedStan as it does in nobody's niche though..... ;)
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Part of the issue is that ideologies are strongly influenced by charismatic people. Text does not enchant. YouTube is the closest one can get.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

manolo wrote:Folks,

I have been posting on internet debate forums for a few years now, and there is something that I have noticed. We may discuss a wide range of issues and factual situations, but it is very rare indeed for a poster's ideology to change over time, and this includes my own. The consistency of personal ideology, particularly when anchored in a religion or other universal belief system, is remarkable.

Having been a teacher, and attended universities as a student, I have seen cases of people changing their ideas, indicating that these ideas have not hardened into a world view (this I call an ideology) although a person may be more or less sympathetic to certain ideas which appeal to their emotions. I'm thinking that the hardening is some kind of emotional process.

It could be that posting on the internet, which is the act of publishing, attracts folks with already fixed views that they wish to share with like minds, or with anyone. For some this will be a kind of promulgation. However, publishing does not have to be like this. Jack Kerouac famously wrote, “All I have to offer the world is my own confusion.” which I think is a bravely put confession.

I would hope that my ideology could change somewhat in the face of reasoned argument or an inspiring person. There are some deep axioms, such as the value of kindness and generosity, which I think I would hold to, but there may be ways of developing such axioms that I haven't yet thought of.

How about you?

Alex.


.


Alex


I can post here so many names of people that have changed their views and everything else "dramatically" .. in all kinds of directions

people who were raised in religious schools, became mad mullahs, later became dramatic secularist, or communist/leftist later became Neocons/Fascist, utterly racist leading political figures later apologizing and becoming tolerant etc

Can post names and WiKi bio

Key is "intelligence"

To recognize and realize whether ones views right or wrong, to "grow up", a certain degree of intelligence needed

Those "stuck" are those lacking the intelligence to grow

.
manolo
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Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by manolo »

noddy wrote: im not sure peoples priorities change very much but as you get older and uglier you get better at living those priorities, so the approach can change.
noddy,

I've seen that process.

Alex.
manolo
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Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:46 pm

Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by manolo »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Part of the issue is that ideologies are strongly influenced by charismatic people. Text does not enchant. YouTube is the closest one can get.
Nonc,

In a sci-fi movie a character said, "Try to change him, not with reason but with yourself."

Alex.
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

If a handful of very different people have been at it for a very long time; they've likely shared the handful of good ideas (and bad) they bring to the table and the most persuasive arguments have already occurred. As you can hold a discussion where you share the same propositions; debate, on those differences, isn't quite the same on the third or fourth go around.

Of course, we can also admit that we are just lousy at it, or lousy thinkers and knowers in general. Maybe that's partially why it's so difficult to get people to change their mind. (noddy and nonc are on to a bit of something there.)
Simple Minded

Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by Simple Minded »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:If a handful of very different people have been at it for a very long time; they've likely shared the handful of good ideas (and bad) they bring to the table and the most persuasive arguments have already occurred. As you can hold a discussion where you share the same propositions; debate, on those differences, isn't quite the same on the third or fourth go around.

Of course, we can also admit that we are just lousy at it, or lousy thinkers and knowers in general. Maybe that's partially why it's so difficult to get people to change their mind. (noddy and nonc are on to a bit of something there.)
carful Big guy, neither one of them respond well to praise or acknowledgement........ ;)
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Endovelico
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Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by Endovelico »

I have long felt that ideologies are the crutches of idiots. People who can't think on their own just repeat whatever idiocies have been invented by those who try to make complex things seem simple, so that they can more easily control everybody else.

In fact people do not need ideologies. All they need are basic principles - such as love thy neighbour - and then apply those principles to everything they do. Ethics, not ideologies. Ideologies try to to give you an universal recipe to solve all problems. Ethics give you the guidelines to know whether something is acceptable or not. But being acceptable is not enough to ensure the results are good. Besides being ethical you need to be smart so that your solutions are effective. Trouble with politicians is that most of them are neither ethical nor smart... :twisted:
Simple Minded

Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by Simple Minded »

No bad Endo.

A professed ideology often seems to be displayed as either an ID badge or camouflage.

ie: The con man who describes himself as "Christian" or the person who lives a "conservative" lifestyle but identifies themselves as liberal because those labels gain immediate access to the preferred clique.

Ideology is often more an advertisement than a set of standards by which one professes to live a disciplined life.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Not an ID badge, just a self-identification. We are social creatures and we need to belong to a social subset.

The ultimate question is who would you endure suffering for.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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kmich
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Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by kmich »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Not an ID badge, just a self-identification. We are social creatures and we need to belong to a social subset.

The ultimate question is who would you endure suffering for.
What's the difference between an ID badge and self identification? Self identification is meaningless outside an embedded social context.

Yes, an ultimate question could be who would you endure suffering for, but perhaps also who you would have genuine compassion for. But can compassion, to be compassion, be limited? How does one limit compassion? By identification of those worthy and unworthy of it.

How does one do that? By assigned labels derived from concepts and "ideologies" that places a defined space between you and the common humanity of the other. It is hard to see that process other than the antithesis of compassion.
Simple Minded

Re: Ideology and personal change

Post by Simple Minded »

I like where this thread is going.

Once you get past the hypocrite, the PR dude, and the poser, as person of sincere moral belief and integrity, tends to act well and finds common ground, regardless of their brand.

For example, Christians and Buddhists.

Oh crap :shock: , I brought labels into it.......... my bad! ;)
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