What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Simple Minded

Re: From Ego to Wego

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:A true rugged individualist only has an ego.. not a "wego" alias group-ego. They only care about themselves.

However also groups - where people think almost alike and individual interests are aligned - can behave like one single rugged individualist. They only care about the group they belong to, mainly because their rugged personal interests are intertwined with those of others in that group. Labor unions are a good example of some very rugged individualist wego groups. Or any religious sekt, political parties.. or just a family..

For the recoerd, I don't think there is anything wrong with any form of rugged individualism. We all are rugged individualists.

So what does it mean to not be a rugged individualist? Is such a thing possible? I think it can be very dangerous to try and wanna be something else than a rugged individualist.
Very well said Bro. I always find it instructive, when engaging one who claims to be an altruist or a "selfless person" to ask them how much time and money they voluntarily donated to charity in the last week, month, year.

In my experience rugged individualists are more generous. They have a sense of personal responsibility, or one of "I can do something."

Not the vague sense of "they..... or we...... or somebody....... should do...... something."
Last edited by Simple Minded on Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: From Ego to Wego

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
I would say a rugged individualist cares about himself and some others. Thats normal and good. To care about other members of the same group/society you belong to and are dependent upon is normal and necessary. That you don't care about other groups or even see them as adversaries/competitors is also good and normal. They are simply not part of your interest. But you sometimes have to deal with them; the question is only how.

People who pretend they "care" about others that are not part their own group of interest.. are usually a danger not only to others but even to the interest of their own group. There is a list with hundreds of examples where people do things because they supposedly care about others.. but the result is countless loss of life, destruction of wealth.
again well said. The ignorant, but well intentioned do-gooder is often the most vicious of tyrants.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C.S. Lewis

Nothing will protect us from external compulsion so much as the control of ourselves, and, as Seneca says, to submit yourself to reason is the way to make everything else submit to you.
Arthur Schopenhauer
Simple Minded

Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Simple Minded »

So.... Fred decides to preach the virtue of selflessness or altruism.

What does he appeal to? What's the sales pitch?

Shirley, not his audience's sense of personal responsibility or self interests........

How to get another to assume ownership of the task at hand......

Eternal reward or punishment..... after death?
Last edited by Simple Minded on Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Parodite »

SM, same observation here. In general people who approach life ruggedly taking full responsibility in that they want to make something of it.. tend to be more generous too. Not saying that all labor union members are whiners, dependers and blamers.. most here are responsible people working hard and contributing. But here we have a "consensus economy" where it is promoted that workers and employers come to a fair and workable agreement on wages etc..because both have their interest in the same enterprise. So usually after some tough negotiations and occasional strikes things move on again after deals are made. In the UK the relationship is historically more like between enemies.
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:So.... Fred decides to preach the virtue of selflessness or altruism.

What does he appeal to? What's the sales pitch?

Shirley, not his audience's sense of personal responsibility or self interests........

How to get another to task ownership......

Eternal reward or punishment..... after death?
Yea that kind of top-down altruism where peole are pressed, scared-to-death to be altruistic or else... can be very destructive.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Simple Minded

Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:SM, same observation here. In general people who approach life ruggedly taking full responsibility in that they want to make something of it.. tend to be more generous too. Not saying that all labor union members are whiners, dependers and blamers.. most here are responsible people working hard and contributing. But here we have a "consensus economy" where it is promoted that workers and employers come to a fair and workable agreement on wages etc..because both have their interest in the same enterprise. So usually after some tough negotiations and occasional strikes things move on again after deals are made. In the UK the relationship is historically more like between enemies.
Oddly enough, all the union members I have ever met or worked with were all acting in their own self interests. The part about looking out for my union brother always struck me as total BS.

The framing of terms is always fascinating to me. Nothing more meaningless than the sense of group identity, and little is more destructive than identity politics.

Who needs group identity, when common interest is readily available?

Framing: Was Mother Teresa a "selfish" person?
Yes, if she did what she did because:
a. She enjoyed it or she got a sense of personal satisfaction from "her" efforts.
b. She wanted the "personal" reward of getting into Heaven.
c. She sought to improve the world in which "she" lived.

I suspect the problem is larger for those who give the word "self" a negative meaning. Luckily, they live in a "self-made" hell.
I recognize their accomplishments! The reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do more! :) ;)
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Simple Minded »

Proselytizer: Today, I shall talk about the value of becoming selfless!

Devoted Follower: Sounds good. What's in it for me?
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Re: From Ego to Wego

Post by Endovelico »

Simple Minded wrote:The ignorant, but well intentioned do-gooder is often the most vicious of tyrants.
I love generalizations... :twisted:
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

This discussion is losing its essential point. Is society an accretion of individuals, or is there truly a group soul which connects us. Let's play a game of bridge with Squeezer and Trip.

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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by noddy »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:This discussion is losing its essential point. Is society an accretion of individuals, or is there truly a group soul which connects us. Let's play a game of bridge with Squeezer and Trip.
this is the strawman as far as im concerned.

when you travel rural australia (im sure its the same in merkia) you can spot the towns created by 'rugged individualist' border types as opposed to more social types - the houses can *just* see eachother versus being all next door to eachother.

why do either type have to think up exaggerated hyperpoble reasons the other is sub human and stupid ?
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Re: From Ego to Wego

Post by Simple Minded »

Endovelico wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:The ignorant, but well intentioned do-gooder is often the most vicious of tyrants.
I love generalizations... :twisted:
"We" all do! :lol:
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by YMix »

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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by kmich »

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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Parodite »

There also is rugged individualism in faith where all seems to evolve around the individual self that needs to be saved, redeemed...from itself and whatnot.
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Simple Minded

Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Simple Minded »

In theory, there must be at least as many forms of rugged individualism as there are individuals.

On the other hand, there are many less forms of collectivism, only as many as there are groups of people. Each group being defined as containing more than one individual.

:shock:

But since a single individual may belong to more than one group (Fred is a Hispanic, left-handed, republican, plumber, union member, home owner, from Virginia, who is going bald) there may be even more collectivists than rugged individualists.

Kinda leads right into string theory and the existence of the multi-verse.

More computer modeling is needed. That much is certain.
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:In theory, there must be at least as many forms of rugged individualism as there are individuals.

On the other hand, there are many less forms of collectivism, only as many as there are groups of people. Each group being defined as containing more than one individual.

:shock:

But since a single individual may belong to more than one group (Fred is a Hispanic, left-handed, republican, plumber, union member, home owner, from Virginia, who is going bald) there may be even more collectivists than rugged individualists.

Kinda leads right into string theory and the existence of the multi-verse.

More computer modeling is needed. That much is certain.
+1 Bro :D Life is so complex we need more than one life to make at least some sense of it... that much is certain too.
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by kmich »

"Individualism" vs "collectivism" is a false dichotomy. "Individualism" has no meaning outside a relational context with a collective reference.

Any success human beings have achieved as a species has been from their capacity for coordination and cooperation not from their power as individuals. The promotion of "Individualism" is only a narcissistic recoil from how dependent we have become on others and on the institutions of our contemporary civilization. Contemporary "libertarianism" is a utopian fantasy to soothe egos wounded by our complex, relational dependencies.
Parodite wrote:There also is rugged individualism in faith where all seems to evolve around the individual self that needs to be saved, redeemed...from itself and whatnot.
There is BS in any conceptual identification including the fixation on the perceived credulousness of the so-called "religious"
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

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Contemporary "libertarianism" is a utopian fantasy to soothe egos wounded by our complex, relational dependencies.
quite so, if you focus on the tedious university stoner version which seems to be the favoured cliche here.

the progressive version of that same damaged ego is 'special snowflakism'.

7 billion humans, each of us disposable and irrelevant is an impossible reality to comprehend for the chaotic ego monkeys.
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Endovelico »

kmich wrote:Contemporary "libertarianism" is a utopian fantasy to soothe egos wounded by our complex, relational dependencies.
Contemporary libertarianism - at least the leftist version thereof - is not individualistic, although it tries to protect individual rights within the community. Sort of, don't mess with the individual unless it is absolutely necessary to protect the community. But the community is definitely more important than the individual.
Simple Minded

Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:......

Kinda leads right into string theory and the existence of the multi-verse.

More computer modeling is needed. That much is certain.
+1 Bro :D Life is so complex we need more than one life to make at least some sense of it... that much is certain too.
Good point, add reincarnation and eternal life after death to the string theory & multi-verse grab bag.

Shirley, if you give "us" an eternity sitting on a cloud playing a harp, or being roasted on a spit, "we" can get our shite together....

In the meantime, the only hope for the plebs is for us to take enough money and power from their collective-herd-ass to straighten out their lives.... ;)

The least they could do is to fall to their knees and say "Thank you Sir! May I have another?"
Simple Minded

Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:
Contemporary "libertarianism" is a utopian fantasy to soothe egos wounded by our complex, relational dependencies.
quite so, if you focus on the tedious university stoner version which seems to be the favoured cliche here.

the progressive version of that same damaged ego is 'special snowflakism'.

7 billion humans, each of us disposable and irrelevant is an impossible reality to comprehend for the chaotic ego monkeys.
:lol:

Parapharsed: "Special snowflakism is the rugged individualism of the university stoner collective herd who profess not to believe in rugged individualism."

Now that is a form of rugged individualism, "I' can identify with. :shock:
Simple Minded

Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Simple Minded »

Endovelico wrote: But the community is definitely more important than the individual.
Obviously true, the rub occurs when the individual egg is asked to hand over his yolk for the good of the collective omelet.

Then amazingly, people act as individuals.

"Dear Leader, I fear that I have been misunderstood. What I meant was that others should do more for me. Not that I should do more for them."

"We" exists only to a certain level of self-sacrifice and pain. Not surprisingly, those levels are subjective.

IIRC, Spock voluntarily went into the radioactive chamber with full knowledge he would die.
The crew of the Enterprise did not vote to send him into the radioactive chamber in hopes of getting free microwaved Vulcan steaks for dinner. ;)
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

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See more rugged individualism at http://scarfolk.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by Parodite »

kmich wrote:"Individualism" vs "collectivism" is a false dichotomy. "Individualism" has no meaning outside a relational context with a collective reference.

Any success human beings have achieved as a species has been from their capacity for coordination and cooperation not from their power as individuals. The promotion of "Individualism" is only a narcissistic recoil from how dependent we have become on others and on the institutions of our contemporary civilization. Contemporary "libertarianism" is a utopian fantasy to soothe egos wounded by our complex, relational dependencies.
\

Way too much stereotyping. Perhaps even projection.
Parodite wrote:There also is rugged individualism in faith where all seems to evolve around the individual self that needs to be saved, redeemed...from itself and whatnot.
There is BS in any conceptual identification including the fixation on the perceived credulousness of the so-called "religious"
I think every human being with a unique character that is changing during a life time.. will approach things and behave accordingly. And there are things like matter of taste, pre-conceived conceptions and prejudice.

The way you once described your religious / existential struggle comes off to me as self-centered. Where you once explained that "one has to gently move oneself out of the way.. to let God etc...". Super-self gently moves aside lower-self? It boggles the mind... but it does come off as an adolescent identity crisis. ;)
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Re: What does it mean to be a rugged individualist?

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

What a bunch of ninny-ism.

We are talking about a political slogan "rugged individual" and you lot head to the woods and survivalists and anarchy. What feverish imagination.

Rugged individual was a nice way for Herbert Hoover to say the government shouldn't be involved in society. It's basically the old bourgeoisie period between absolutist states and totalitarian ones. Of course, running on that when everyone was going nazi...err native....with these grand collectivist plans wasn't not too hip.

It looked even sillier with that whole depression thing. Ooops.

But half of 'ya advocating for more decentralization are basically begging for rugged individualism.

I think the saying goes:

Be careful not to look a gift hobo in the mouth. :?
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