Politics

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Politics

Postby Parodite » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:20 am

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Re: Politics

Postby Parodite » Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:03 pm

Fromm synthesising socialism and libertarianism? :shock: :)

Near the end he is questioned about the fear in the US of socialist ideas creeping into society. Nice response and observation by Fromm: The Russians managed to sell the US the lie they have a socialist system... the truth is the opposite; they have state capitalism in fact and a massive central bureaucracy - both are opposite the socialist ideal. Depending on the definition and version of socialism course... but Fromm's boils down to what now can be called social libertarianism! :)

More interesting observations of the old observant bard.. worth watching +1.

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Re: Politics

Postby Simple Minded » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:21 am

Parodite wrote:Fromm synthesising socialism and libertarianism? :shock: :)

Near the end he is questioned about the fear in the US of socialist ideas creeping into society. Nice response and observation by Fromm: The Russians managed to sell the US the lie they have a socialist system... the truth is the opposite; they have state capitalism in fact and a massive central bureaucracy - both are opposite the socialist ideal. Depending on the definition and version of socialism course... but Fromm's boils down to what now can be called social libertarianism! :)

More interesting observations of the old observant bard.. worth watching +1.



Parodite,

Thanks. I am looking forward to watching this.

The perils of definition. One of my favorite professors had two great sayings:
1. Words mean things.
2. You have to listen to the words.

I have often thought that I have never heard any European post an intelligent statement about capitalism at OTNOT, and that I'm sure the Europeans think that same about the statements posted by Americans defining socialism.

How to get a single word to mean the same thing in two different places.......
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Re: Politics

Postby YMix » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:50 am

Simple Minded wrote:How to get a single word to mean the same thing in two different places.......


How to get different people from different places to have the same experiences and see them in the same light...

I see libertarianism and the move against the government in the USA and Noddyland :) as the result of both a certain tradition and a more or less natural reaction to the lack of significant foreign (and domestic) enemies. In fact, when the USA needed a good war on its soil, the locals had to kill each other. Safe behind their oceans, countries founded in more peaceful times can afford to think that government is useless. But even in the US civil war, victory went to the government that organized and managed its resources better.

Europeans, frequently at war with each other, did not warm up to such ideas until very recently. The fact that Europe has been at peace and relatively prosperous for most of the past 200 years certainly helped.
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Re: Politics

Postby Parodite » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:05 am

Simple Minded wrote:Parodite,

Thanks. I am looking forward to watching this.

The perils of definition. One of my favorite professors had two great sayings:
1. Words mean things.
2. You have to listen to the words.

I have often thought that I have never heard any European post an intelligent statement about capitalism at OTNOT, and that I'm sure the Europeans think that same about the statements posted by Americans defining socialism.

How to get a single word to mean the same thing in two different places.......


Quite right. Personally I take concepts like socialism or capitalism to be more like platforms for thought and discussion. Capitalism concerns itself with issues like economic organisation and process, socialism covers social structure and process. But of course... "-ism" is a bit a problematic here, better would be "discussing economic and social aspects" of the way our societies operate. Politics methinks is just the process of decision making.
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Re: Politics

Postby Parodite » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:35 am

Fromm says the USSR falsely claimed to be a socialist aqa Marxist society and that the tradegy is that they managed to sell that lie to the US. They made the US believe that the USSR represents socialism and Marxism. I should read Marx myself, but will assume Fromm did read it and knows what he talks about.

This is what socialism means according to Fromm:

1. Minimum centralized decision making and maximum decentralized decision making.
2. Personal responsibility and maximum freedom for the individual.
3. The ability to participate at the local level in the decision making process, notably at work.

Now here is the "irony" of course: these are hard the core foundations of libertarianism! Certainly 1) and 2).. but also 3) is a value many libertarians will subscribe to if asked, me am sureth.

He also predicted that the USSR and the USA will become more look-alikes in the future: societies with a huge central bureaucracy, with the only difference being that in the USSR the conformity is enforced top-down, whereas in the US it is done via manipulation (read: money and marketing). This is so true also today.
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Re: Politics

Postby YMix » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:10 am

Parodite wrote:He also predicted that the USSR and the USA will become more look-alikes in the future: societies with a huge central bureaucracy, with the only difference being that in the USSR the conformity is enforced top-down, whereas in the US it is done via manipulation (read: money and marketing). This is so true also today.


Image
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Re: Politics

Postby Simple Minded » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:18 am

YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:How to get a single word to mean the same thing in two different places.......


How to get different people from different places to have the same experiences and see them in the same light...

I see libertarianism and the move against the government in the USA and Noddyland :) as the result of both a certain tradition and a more or less natural reaction to the lack of significant foreign (and domestic) enemies. In fact, when the USA needed a good war on its soil, the locals had to kill each other. Safe behind their oceans, countries founded in more peaceful times can afford to think that government is useless. But even in the US civil war, victory went to the government that organized and managed its resources better.

Europeans, frequently at war with each other, did not warm up to such ideas until very recently. The fact that Europe has been at peace and relatively prosperous for most of the past 200 years certainly helped.


Not a bad summary, other than I would substitute 50 years for 200 years.

You and I can engage in mutually beneficial transactions voluntarily, and if we can do that, we have no need for any third party interference from "them." The definition of "them" varies tremendously across oceans and, sometimes, even across zip codes.

Listening to you, Endo, HP, or Manolo describe an America I have never experienced is no different than listening to Mr. Perfect, Tinker, or Zack do the same. I often think "I'm glad I don't live in the same country as those guys."

which kinda makes me think, I don't....... ;)
Last edited by Simple Minded on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Politics

Postby Simple Minded » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:28 am

Parodite wrote:
Quite right. Personally I take concepts like socialism or capitalism to be more like platforms for thought and discussion. Capitalism concerns itself with issues like economic organisation and process, socialism covers social structure and process. But of course... "-ism" is a bit a problematic here, better would be "discussing economic and social aspects" of the way our societies operate. Politics methinks is just the process of decision making.


Agreed. Capitalism and Socialism are the most general of terms, like Christianity. Everyone knows what a good Christian is, right? I live in a not very densely populated area of the Bible Belt, and I would estimate that there are at least 400 churches within a 20 mile radius. Most of them are Christian, and many don't appear to have more than a few dozen members. So maybe people can't agree on the definition of Christianity, in any great detail.

It seems to me that capitalism is merely voluntary economic activity, or freedom of association. Try to blend it into a ruling ideology, and it goes sour.

Socialism seems to be much the same, and also does not seem to lend itself well to government. Both are best represented as personal ideologies, or philosophical ideals. Both seem to be religion for the non-religious, at least at the "ideal" or "pure" levels.

I think in Europe, capitalism is often synonymous with cronyism, and the same for socialism in America. Most people tend to view Robin Hood as good when he is taking from others and giving to them, rather than taking from them and giving to others.

Stop short of picking up a gun to enforce others to comply with your "ideals" and a lot of ideological differences fade away. The difference between theory and practice.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Politics

Postby Simple Minded » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:43 am

Parodite wrote:...... I should read Marx myself........



Two excellent companion reads would be:

Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
and
The Virtue of Selfishness

both written by the she-devil Ayn Rand.

I think if you read those two short books, you will understand why I laugh when I read 99% (THERE'S THAT NUMBER AGAIN!!!) of the posts about Ayn Rand at OTNOT. ;) :)
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Re: Politics

Postby YMix » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:45 pm

Simple Minded wrote:You and I can engage in mutually beneficial transactions voluntarily, and if we can do that, we have no need for any third party interference from "them."


I'm fine with that. It's those unilaterally-beneficial transactions that worry me.
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Re: Politics

Postby Mr. Perfect » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:19 pm

Don't enter into them then.
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Re: Politics

Postby manolo » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:58 am

YMix wrote: Safe behind their oceans, countries founded in more peaceful times can afford to think that government is useless.


YMix,

Your point feeds into my own view of the 'social libertarian'. This is a person who understands that systems can (and do) provide effective personal freedom. Many people seem to lose sight of this, maybe because they take the benefits for granted.

In a population as large as a nation state I find the greatest personal freedom to be facilitated by systems, hopefully working quietly away in the background and not getting in my way. I want transport, banking, healthcare, internet access, civil peace to be seamlessly in place and not get in my way.

For example, anywhere in the UK I can walk into a doctors office and receive healthcare without payment, paperwork or explanation. In the EU countries I can drive across national borders without even slowing down the car, I can get cash out of the ATM machine of any bank in the UK without paying for the service. All these liberties did not come about by magic, but required agreements guaranteed (at least for now) by common understanding and often by rule of law.

Once we have mastered a few simple features of these systems we are free to move with the least amount of personal interference. It is a modern world that I value and enjoy greatly. :)

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Re: Politics

Postby YMix » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:57 pm

Recalculating democracy

[...]

Although the exact model can be altered to fit local conditions, Democracy 2.1 (D21 for short) calls for doing away with one-person, one-vote systems and replacing them with elections where voters have more than one vote, and in some cases negative anti-votes. The formulas set the numerical balance between positive votes and negative ones, with each voter casting multiple votes on a single ballot and the sum of pluses and minuses determining the outcome.

[...]


For Parodite.
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Re: Politics

Postby Parodite » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:00 pm

YMix wrote:
Recalculating democracy

[...]

Although the exact model can be altered to fit local conditions, Democracy 2.1 (D21 for short) calls for doing away with one-person, one-vote systems and replacing them with elections where voters have more than one vote, and in some cases negative anti-votes. The formulas set the numerical balance between positive votes and negative ones, with each voter casting multiple votes on a single ballot and the sum of pluses and minuses determining the outcome.

[...]


For Parodite.


Cool. At first glance it does make me wonder if negative voting does not also give everyone the opportunity to sabotage anyone. But maybe in reality negative votes cancel each other out. But if so then..what would be the benefit sum total.

Remains of course that it is always good when people have more local powers to participate, also through voting on issues that directly affect them. And I like the idea of more direct democracy where one votes on issues (some of them may need to come in a few packages/group policies), rather than on politicians who tend to fabricate and sell stories if not fairy-tales where they present themselves as messiahs for the nation.
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Re: Politics

Postby Mr. Perfect » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:28 pm

If you guys will notice it is liberals trying to glom onto libertarianism but libertarians are not returning the favor.
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Re: Politics

Postby Parodite » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:42 am

Mr. P. what is your problem. You are not the gate keeper of libertarianism. A libertarian is s/he who considers him/herself a libertarian. And there are recognized brands of libertarianism and it undergoes evolution. Ah darn.. I forgot you don't believe in evolution. ;)

Note that the wiki list mentions "libertarian socialism". Social libertarianism is missing though... a sad omission don't you think?
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Re: Politics

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:57 pm

My problem is people trying to put me in single payer. You can change names all you want, leftists have to every generation or two, but I'm gonna be there with tanks and a brigade of teabaggers, waiting. At that point you'll probably take on the name teabaggers, and yeah well find another name I guess but nothing really changed. The external is not the internal.
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Re: Politics

Postby Parodite » Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:10 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:My problem is people trying to put me in single payer. You can change names all you want, leftists have to every generation or two, but I'm gonna be there with tanks and a brigade of teabaggers, waiting. At that point you'll probably take on the name teabaggers, and yeah well find another name I guess but nothing really changed. The external is not the internal.


Name calling is part of life. You are also pretty good at it. One of the best I know. As for the external: true.
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Re: Politics

Postby Typhoon » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:15 pm

Leftist delusions regarding Soviet Russian horrors:


http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.h ... et-horrors
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Re: Politics

Postby manolo » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:27 am

Parodite wrote:Mr. P. what is your problem. You are not the gate keeper of libertarianism. A libertarian is s/he who considers him/herself a libertarian. And there are recognized brands of libertarianism and it undergoes evolution. Ah darn.. I forgot you don't believe in evolution. ;)

Note that the wiki list mentions "libertarian socialism". Social libertarianism is missing though... a sad omission don't you think?


Parodite,

I think what really matters is the way we live. A 'wiki' entry doesn't change that.

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Re: Politics

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:40 am

Typhoon wrote:Leftist delusions regarding Soviet Russian horrors:


http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.h ... et-horrors


typhoon,

Reading the article you posted, instantly reminded me of reading this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Daughter-Com ... 9812325514

the same phenomena still exists today, just a new generation of apparatchiks. Just a few years ago, my niece told me of her college professors lecturing students on the superiority of the Cuban form of government.
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Re: Politics

Postby Typhoon » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:44 pm

Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Leftist delusions regarding Soviet Russian horrors:


http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.h ... et-horrors


typhoon,

Reading the article you posted, instantly reminded me of reading this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Daughter-Com ... 9812325514

the same phenomena still exists today, just a new generation of apparatchiks.


I guess she ran into the university wannabe Maoists in the USA?

Some were sufficiently deluded to have voluntarily gone to PR China during the Cultural Devolution and joined the Red Guards and participated in the persecutions.

Simple Minded wrote:Just a few years ago, my niece told me of her college professors lecturing students on the superiority of the Cuban form of government.


Would disagreeing with and challenging the profs lead to a lesser, possibly failing, grade?
If so, then that was tuition fees well wasted.

I think academics are naturally drawn to dictatorships.
Having to constantly compete in the marketplace of ideas - publish or perish,
they fantasize about in a social structure wherein they could dictate to people instead.

Oh, wait. I just inadvertently described a contemporary university campus.

I would argue that the seminal work is The Captive Mind
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Re: Politics

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:32 pm

Typhoon wrote:
I think academics are naturally drawn to dictatorships.
Having to constantly compete in the marketplace of ideas - publish or perish,
they fantasize about in a social structure wherein they could dictate to people instead.

Oh, wait. I just inadvertently described a contemporary university campus.

I would argue that the seminal work is The Captive Mind


I suspect that many find the concept of free market (voluntary transactions) abhorrent after they repeatedly discover that "society" does not value them, their products, their services, or their ideas anywhere near as much as they value their own unique specialness or superiority.

It really sucks to live on a planet inhabited by dolts, racists, misanthropes, the ill-cultured, and haters. :(
The day you learn that not everyone, very few, or no one wants to hang your fingerpaintings on their refrigerator is a sad, sad day..... :(

After you appeal to God/Universe, and find him/her/it to be indifferent to your special snowflakeness, what's a body to do in one's quest for justice? :?

Find a dude with weapons who will grant you personal favor in return for obedience?

Useful Idiots do seem to find justice more readily than many others. They have a "special gift" for doing so.
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