Is Pope Francis pro choice?

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Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby manolo » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:06 am

Folks,

'Priests, he ordered, were to show mercy and compassion to women who came to confess having an abortion. No longer were they to refuse absolution (forgiveness of sins) or have their case referred to the local bishop. Francis said, his priests were to emphasise to the women concerned that, however “profoundly unjust” their choice was, God still loved them and understood there were reasons why they had made such an “agonising and painful” decision. He added that automatic excommunication decreed by canon law for abortion no longer applied.'


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ine-papacy

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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:21 am

This has only something incidentally to do with North America, could we move the thread to it's appropriate place.
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby noddy » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:22 am

that sentence reads as a variation on the 'hate the sin, not the sinner' that all the broad church types use, which is the sort of nuance which seems to confuse the ultra [conservative | progressive] .

of course one should actually read the full bag of catholic literature that comes out with, and around, a popey pronouncement if one wants to know what was actually meant.
Last edited by noddy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby YMix » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:58 pm

Moved.
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby manolo » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:38 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:This has only something incidentally to do with North America, could we move the thread to it's appropriate place.


nap,

No problem, I was just thinking of his imminent visit to the US. Good move.

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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby manolo » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:42 pm

noddy wrote:that sentence reads as a variation on the 'hate the sin, not the sinner' that all the broad church types use, which is the sort of nuance which seems to confuse the ultra [conservative | progressive] .

of course one should actually read the full bag of catholic literature that comes out with, and around, a popey pronouncement if one wants to know what was actually meant.


noddy,

Fair points. However, I do think the move from excommunication to absolution is a bit more than a nuance.

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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby noddy » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:48 am

manolo wrote:I do think the move from excommunication to absolution is a bit more than a nuance.


absolution is repenting on your SIN and getting church forgiveness, standard practice for broad church catholics who in the past have been accused of hyprocrisy by allowing mafiosi and english prime ministers the same service.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolution

show me a progressive pro choice person who believes abortion is a sin that needs forgiveness :)
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby Parodite » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:58 pm

Take an average street and many Jack or Jill will say same. Honorable ordinary opinions. When Francis speaks same words however.. oh my, it is special. Institutionalized narcissism. Trump would make a good Pope.
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby noddy » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:36 am

Parodite wrote:Take an average street and many Jack or Jill will say same. Honorable ordinary opinions. When Francis speaks same words however.. oh my, it is special. Institutionalized narcissism. Trump would make a good Pope.



some types of atheist seem to take him deadly seriously and thy consider all the catholics like wide eyed sheep, hanging off every word, which hasnt been my experience at all.
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby manolo » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:45 am

Parodite wrote: Trump would make a good Pope.


Parodite,

He does tend to speak in pronouncements, backed with the authority of, er, Trump! :o

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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby Parodite » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:08 am

noddy wrote:
Parodite wrote:Take an average street and many Jack or Jill will say same. Honorable ordinary opinions. When Francis speaks same words however.. oh my, it is special. Institutionalized narcissism. Trump would make a good Pope.



some types of atheist seem to take him deadly seriously and thy consider all the catholics like wide eyed sheep, hanging off every word, which hasnt been my experience at all.


I meant more the media attention he (any pope) gets.
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby Parodite » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:11 am

manolo wrote:
Parodite wrote: Trump would make a good Pope.


Parodite,

He does tend to speak in pronouncements, backed with the authority of, er, Trump! :o

Alex.


True! And when a Pope pronounces stuff.. he believes he is backed not by himself, but by divine authority. I think Trump is honest and the Pope just pretending he is not Trump-ish. :oops:
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby noddy » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:45 am

Parodite wrote:
noddy wrote:
Parodite wrote:Take an average street and many Jack or Jill will say same. Honorable ordinary opinions. When Francis speaks same words however.. oh my, it is special. Institutionalized narcissism. Trump would make a good Pope.



some types of atheist seem to take him deadly seriously and thy consider all the catholics like wide eyed sheep, hanging off every word, which hasnt been my experience at all.


I meant more the media attention he (any pope) gets.


the media follows the clicks and eyeballs and the pope generates those, chickens and eggs.

the question is why are atheists and agnostics feel the need to keep up with the popes muses... i might suspect that the catholic institution is starting to acquire a bit of that primitive authenticity that the post moderns crave.
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:46 am

Trump wants to be POTUS.

Obama wants to be Pope.

The Pope wants to be Trump.

Seems to me they are all pro-choice. Tough to know who to worship.

No wonder the masses are confused.....
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:50 am

noddy wrote:
the question is why are atheists and agnostics feel the need to keep up with the popes muses... i might suspect that the catholic institution is starting to acquire a bit of that primitive authenticity that the post moderns crave.


You may be right, I have seen more than a couple sources that claim the Millennials are trending back to religion more than the previous two generations. One would expect the popularity of any movement to be periodic.
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby YMix » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:54 pm

Simple Minded wrote:You may be right, I have seen more than a couple sources that claim the Millennials are trending back to religion more than the previous two generations.


Not only to religion.

The hard-left finance spokesman for Britain's opposition Labour Party said on Monday that Karl Marx, co-author of "The Communist Manifesto", is back in fashion because his ideas offer a definitive way to analyse the capitalist foundations of the modern Western economy.

After winning Labour's top job by a landslide earlier this month, Jeremy Corbyn appointed John McDonnell - a former trade unionist who backs renationalising banks and imposing wealth taxes - as his finance minister-in-waiting.

"If you look at most of the institutions that are teaching economics today, Marx has come back in to fashion because people have gone back to his analysis of just the basics of how the system works," McDonnell told BBC radio.

"If you look at our capitalist system, one of the definitive analysts of how it works - not whether it is condemned, or whether it is right or wrong, just the mechanics of how it works, when it was first formed and how it would be developed - actually was Marx," he said.

British governments have championed free markets since Conservative Margaret Thatcher became prime minister in 1979, building what foreign investors say is one of the world's most open economies. Labour premiers Tony Blair and Gordon Brown also followed pro-business policies from 1997 to 2010.

"People might disagree with his [Marx's] conclusions about what to do with the system, but actually to understand how the system works he comes up with some interesting analyses that have been built in to traditional and fairly classical economics," McDonnell said.
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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:44 am

YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:You may be right, I have seen more than a couple sources that claim the Millennials are trending back to religion more than the previous two generations.


Not only to religion.

The hard-left finance spokesman for Britain's opposition Labour Party said on Monday that Karl Marx, co-author of "The Communist Manifesto", is back in fashion because his ideas offer a definitive way to analyse the capitalist foundations of the modern Western economy.

After winning Labour's top job by a landslide earlier this month, Jeremy Corbyn appointed John McDonnell - a former trade unionist who backs renationalising banks and imposing wealth taxes - as his finance minister-in-waiting.

"If you look at most of the institutions that are teaching economics today, Marx has come back in to fashion because people have gone back to his analysis of just the basics of how the system works," McDonnell told BBC radio.

"If you look at our capitalist system, one of the definitive analysts of how it works - not whether it is condemned, or whether it is right or wrong, just the mechanics of how it works, when it was first formed and how it would be developed - actually was Marx," he said.

British governments have championed free markets since Conservative Margaret Thatcher became prime minister in 1979, building what foreign investors say is one of the world's most open economies. Labour premiers Tony Blair and Gordon Brown also followed pro-business policies from 1997 to 2010.

"People might disagree with his [Marx's] conclusions about what to do with the system, but actually to understand how the system works he comes up with some interesting analyses that have been built in to traditional and fairly classical economics," McDonnell said.


For many, the belief in Marxism, Capitalism, Socialism, et al is very, very close to a religious belief.

Or for that matter, football, soccer, NASCAR, etc.

It is all relative, and the pendulum will keep on swingin.....

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Re: Is Pope Francis pro choice?

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:50 pm

The Pope writes: “I have decided, notwithstanding anything to the contrary, to concede to all priests for the Jubilee Year the discretion to absolve of the sin of abortion those who have procured it and who, with contrite heart, seek forgiveness for it.”

Where some see a "pro-choice" argument, it should give them pause that by all indications, the Pope has no problem with a latae senteniae of automatic excommunication for all women who procure abortions and is of the mind that if one is guilty of the sin they are guilty of the crime (which are two different things) and its censures (a third thing) as well- that he is cutting through the bureaucracy for a year is an act of mercy not a change of heart.

The greatest boon for the Pope's action is that it provides a uniform practice for at least a year that cuts through the bureaucracy and the multiplication of opinions born out of the 1917 and 1983 revisions of canon law.
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