Is there evil in this world?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby noddy » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:57 am

All this talk about dodging and primitive superstitions is rot and pablum.


fair enough, tho lacking in detail.

i cant say i believe in evil, so i havent been participating in this non conversation.

as above, i believe in things i think are disgusting/wrong or against my world, its not for me to declare them relevant to the entire universe.

A is NOT B.

ok, so the conversation needs to be about B and not A then.

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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:51 am

noddy wrote:
All this talk about dodging and primitive superstitions is rot and pablum.


fair enough, tho lacking in detail.

i cant say i believe in evil, so i havent been participating in this non conversation.

as above, i believe in things i think are disgusting/wrong or against my world, its not for me to declare them relevant to the entire universe.

A is NOT B.

ok, so the conversation needs to be about B and not A then.

things that work (tm) [patent pending] {detail goes ere}


I screwed up that post and the previous one- fixing it, it should read:

noddy wrote:evil as the absence of good is an intellectual dodge.

the hard part of the word evil is reconciling it outwards from humanity to the world and nature, plenty of things i would offhand declare evil are survival strategies for others so my main thought would be that you really can only have evil within the framework of humans being a god created, separate class of critter, to the rest of em.

otherwise its all just squabbling over resources, we all know anything goes in do or die warfare.


All this chatter about dodging and primitive superstitions is rot and pablum.

Privation, absence, darkness, depredations and degradations- moral, physical, and metaphysical evils- evil in the broad is a way to conceptually organize the sum of opposition which experience shows to exist in this universe to our needs and desires.

While I don't think it is so ably reduced to good choice/bad choice; is there anyone out there of sound mind and body who does not act and react with good and bad choices in mind? Once we are into this territory, we clearly operate as if there was truly evil in this world.

From there it gets murky without a divine command ethic, especially if we jump right towards moral obligations and moral evils.

Anscombe points out, "One man– a philosopher– may say that since justice is a virtue, and injustice a vice, and virtues and vices are built up by the performances of the action in which they are instanced, an act of injustice will tend to make a man bad; and essentially the flourishing of a man qua man consists in his being good (e.g. in virtues); but for any X to which such terms apply, X needs what makes it flourish, so a man needs, or ought to perform, only virtuous actions; and even if, as it must be admitted may happen, he flourishes less, or not at all, in inessentials, by avoiding injustice, his life is spoiled in essentials by not avoiding injustice – so he still needs to perform only just actions. That is roughly how Plato and Aristotle talk, but it can be seen that philosophically there is a huge gap, at present unfillable as far as we are concerned, which needs to be filled by an account of human nature, human action, the type of characteristic a virtue is, and above all of human "flourishing.""

"In present-day philosophy an explanation is required how an unjust man is a bad man, or an unjust action a bad one; to give such an explanation belongs to ethics; but it cannot even be begun until we are equipped with a sound philosophy of psychology. For the proof that an unjust man is a bad man would require a positive account of justice as a “virtue.” This part of the subject-matter of ethics, is however, completely closed to us until we have an account of what type of characteristic a virtue is – a problem, not of ethics, but of conceptual analysis – and how it relates to the actions in which it is instanced: a matter which I think Aristotle did not succeed in really making clear."
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby manolo » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:23 am

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
“Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not.” - Epicurus


Nonc and folks,

I think that Epicurus died in 270BC. Plato wrote 'The Death of Socrates', relating to that death in 399BC.

Looks like stoicism was the fashion in those days, and I find a lot of sense in it today.

Alex.
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Parodite » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:18 am

noddy wrote:this might read as some nihilist psycho thing, its not, its just saying that when i use the word evil and im throwing my energy to fight evil, im actually just sticking up for my bit of the world and defending that resource.


I find the word evil.. kinda evil. A stinky nasty word.. with bad connotations. It sucks away my resources ;)
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:47 am

manolo wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:
“Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not.” - Epicurus


Nonc and folks,

I think that Epicurus died in 270BC. Plato wrote 'The Death of Socrates', relating to that death in 399BC.

Looks like stoicism was the fashion in those days, and I find a lot of sense in it today.

Alex.


amen Alex, Maxwell Staniforth's translation of Meditations is IMSMO, probably the best guide to civilized behavior ever written. Very Buddhist in connotation.
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:21 pm

Parodite wrote:
noddy wrote:this might read as some nihilist psycho thing, its not, its just saying that when i use the word evil and im throwing my energy to fight evil, im actually just sticking up for my bit of the world and defending that resource.


I find the word evil.. kinda evil. A stinky nasty word.. with bad connotations. It sucks away my resources ;)


Evil implies a non-material existence. It can appear as a perverted kind of motivation or deprivation state, so a more common definition might be that is evil is the quality that brings satisfaction from bad acts.
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Into the dark riddle room

Postby Parodite » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:47 pm

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Parodite wrote:
noddy wrote:this might read as some nihilist psycho thing, its not, its just saying that when i use the word evil and im throwing my energy to fight evil, im actually just sticking up for my bit of the world and defending that resource.


I find the word evil.. kinda evil. A stinky nasty word.. with bad connotations. It sucks away my resources ;)


Evil implies a non-material existence.


Which is in my opnion why the concept of the non-material by itself is evil.. uhhh "evil".

The non-material, the meta-physical is like the guy who never shows up in court. Not because he is too good for that, but because he is worse and more guilty than believed and often the opposite of what he pretends to be. The meta-physical can never be held to account, never be understood and will forever be kept safely hiding behind a tree. Unknowables that hide behind trees always trigger counter productive emotions; fear being the no1. among them, with confusion a good 2nd. It feeds into our paranoid capabilities, sends people into the dark riddle room from which there is no exit. Evil.. truly is an evil thought. ;) :shock:
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:32 pm

.


.

Epicurus .. 341 BC - 270 BC

1 - Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able ?
Then he is not all-powerful.

2 - Is he able, but not willing ?
Then he is evil-minded.

3 - Is he both able and willing ?
Then where does the evil come from ?

4 - Is he neither able nor willing ?
Then why call him God?

.



.
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby manolo » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:23 pm

Heracleum Persicum wrote:.


.

Epicurus .. 341 BC - 270 BC

1 - Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able ?
Then he is not all-powerful.

2 - Is he able, but not willing ?
Then he is evil-minded.

3 - Is he both able and willing ?
Then where does the evil come from ?

4 - Is he neither able nor willing ?
Then why call him God?

.



.


HP,

The pre-Christian problem of evil. I like that.

Alex.
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:53 pm

manolo wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.


.

Epicurus .. 341 BC - 270 BC

1 - Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able ?
Then he is not all-powerful.

2 - Is he able, but not willing ?
Then he is evil-minded.

3 - Is he both able and willing ?
Then where does the evil come from ?

4 - Is he neither able nor willing ?
Then why call him God?

.



.


HP,

The pre-Christian problem of evil. I like that.

Alex.

.




Epicurus has a valid case

Wonder how "Francis" would solve the puzzle ! ! !

Should admit, Pre-Christian's saw things more clear .. now-a-day things too overloaded with rubbish of Moh this, Jesus that, Moses this, Buddha that.

.
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby manolo » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:03 pm

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Epicurus has a valid case

Wonder how "Francis" would solve the puzzle ! ! !

Should admit, Pre-Christian's saw things more clear .. now-a-day things too overloaded with rubbish of Moh this, Jesus that, Moses this, Buddha that.

.


HP,

No surprise that Uni first year philosophy is heavy on the Greeks. Some call it 'footnotes to Plato'.

Alex.
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:02 am

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
manolo wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.


.

Epicurus .. 341 BC - 270 BC

1 - Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able ?
Then he is not all-powerful.

2 - Is he able, but not willing ?
Then he is evil-minded.

3 - Is he both able and willing ?
Then where does the evil come from ?

4 - Is he neither able nor willing ?
Then why call him God?

.



.


HP,

The pre-Christian problem of evil. I like that.

Alex.

.




Epicurus has a valid case

Wonder how "Francis" would solve the puzzle ! ! !

Should admit, Pre-Christian's saw things more clear .. now-a-day things too overloaded with rubbish of Moh this, Jesus that, Moses this, Buddha that.

.

No, it is not valid. Remember, logical syllogisms only apply to material objects. They do not apply to concepts.

If God can do anything, can he make a circle with three sides and three angles? Stupid question.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:02 am

Thanks Nonc. I remember having to read Why Bad things Happen to Good People for a philosophy of religion course and then discussing the content of HP's post.

Dumbest discussions I have ever heard.

Paraphrased, I form a concept of God. I form concepts of what I observe in the world. My concept of God does not agree with my concepts of what I observe in the world. So I conclude there is something wrong with God. Or maybe the Brand X God I bought is defective. Should I get my money back and buy Brand Y God instead?

How do I resolve without pissing off the others?

I remember the last part of your post stated as "God can do anything, but he can't do the impossible. He can't make a square circle."

But, Shirley, the God of Rationalization can!
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Parodite » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:26 am

It shirly isn't God's fault that he is a fantasy. Let that be clear.
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:30 am

Simple Minded wrote:How do I resolve without pissing off the others?


It's always a good start when you aren't pissing on others. :D
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:35 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:How do I resolve without pissing off the others?


It's always a good start when you aren't pissing on others. :D


:lol: Yeah, it's raining over here too. :)

There must be an internal benefit to choosing to feel pissed off, cause so many people go for it. I think it uncages one's sense of being a noble sufferer.

Hmmmm.... perhaps in a high tech world of instantaneous, ubiquitous communication, more First World Public Service Announcements would make things "better." Perhaps in the Reality Thread?
the good news: there appears to be about 320 million different opinions about America is.
the bad news: except for mine, they're all wrong.

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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby noddy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:36 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:How do I resolve without pissing off the others?


It's always a good start when you aren't pissing on others. :D


which is an excellent segue back to topic.

consent and its ability to change the same act from evil to inconsequential.
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Re: Is there evil in this world?

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:37 pm

Parodite wrote:It shirly isn't God's fault that he is a fantasy. Let that be clear.


Personally, I never believe anything Shirley says.........
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