Freedom and controlling ideologies

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Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:34 am

Folks,

We often talk about core values here on the forum, and what more interesting value could there be than our own freedom?

The issue has been pointed up recently by a Catholic theologian, George Wiedel. He refers to Pope Francis' words during the recent US visit,

“For, as he put it, the real battle in late modernity (as in today's post-modernity), runs straight through the human heart. That battle is one of resistance to modernity's siren songs of radical personal autonomy and instant gratification.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... rge-weigel

So, we have it. For Pope Francis the real battle is against “personal autonomy”. For anyone who has studied controlling ideologies such as Communism, Christianity, Islam or Fascism it will be obvious that personal autonomy is under attack by such systems. Each system has its rules of conduct, commandments and practical requirements. Each system categorically denies any other form of control or thought.

For those of us who value our freedom, the dangers are obvious.

In these controlling ideologies, we lose “ Independence or freedom, as of the will or one's actions.”

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/autonomy

Call me old fashioned, but I value my freedom of will and freedom of action very highly, and am in no hurry to give it up.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:06 am

sounds like gibberish to me, im in no danger of joining the catholics and dont have to listen to popey.

the socialists or multinational capitalists are the only ones to be worried about, they control the government and the legal system.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:50 pm

Weigel's article does sound like gibberish. What the hell is he trying to say?

Alex,

You are right, "personal freedom" is always under assault by those who desire to "fix" others. The "Common Good" is as universal a bludgeon as any god, religion, or other "ideal" ever imagined.

Come to think of it, "personal freedom" is also always under assault by gravity, nature, entropy, etc.

AGW is a great "post modern" version of Armageddon or Satan.

"Post modern" always sounds like "this time is different" to me. Use of the phrase "post modern" reduces the weight and value of the accompanying hypothesis considerably in my simple mind.

noddy is right, having an occupation of being a person of superior values and morality, would be great deal of fun.

"Hey Knuckleheads! Yer not living up to the ideals I profess. Knock it off! Shut the hell up. Toe the line and put yer dues in the collection plate. that's a good _____! :D "
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:33 pm

Wiegel points out the failing is in "radical personal autonomy" and he is right.

After a century or so of trying to make everyone into cannon fodder/ species fodder/ historical fodder here in the West, the pendulum has swung the other way where the dominant ideologies focus too much on an individual autonomy without a moral or intellectual foundation.

We are relational beings first and foremost who live, learn, love and pass away. This makes us, ultimately, both social and personal at the same time and the makes it hard to square with the individualism fetish just as much as the fodder lovers.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Typhoon » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:34 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Wiegel points out the failing is in "radical personal autonomy" and he is right.

After a century or so of trying to make everyone into cannon fodder/ species fodder/ historical fodder here in the West, the pendulum has swung the other way where the dominant ideologies focus too much on an individual autonomy without a moral or intellectual foundation.

We are relational beings first and foremost who live, learn, love and pass away. This makes us, ultimately, both social and personal at the same time and the makes it hard to square with the individualism fetish just as much as the fodder lovers.


A perceptive point.

Somewhere between the libertarian and the collectivist lies a natural life.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Parodite » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:05 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:We are relational beings first and foremost who live, learn, love and pass away. This makes us, ultimately, both social and personal at the same time and the makes it hard to square with the individualism fetish just as much as the fodder lovers.


Indeed. But maybe not much of a big deal either way? All we do is in the service of our personal and social needs. Wanting to convert others to our faith or opinions (or un-faith and counter-opinions) is normal. To deny Christians, Muslims, Communists or Fascists the right to be selfishly-social aqa socially-selfish would be unfair! :P Although.. it could be in our (us freedom lovers) social self interest if they are on the loosing side... so we better fight them to the max!

In fact and in general, it is a bad idea to tolerate others to the point of self-negation. Especially when done under the guise of "love". "Sir, you have a problem, but I'm going to fix it for you." Ponzi schemes. But are Ponzi schemes bad? They just serve someones self-interest, less so the one who buys the sh*t believing it is a birthday cake.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:53 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Wiegel points out the failing is in "radical personal autonomy" and he is right.

After a century or so of trying to make everyone into cannon fodder/ species fodder/ historical fodder here in the West, the pendulum has swung the other way where the dominant ideologies focus too much on an individual autonomy without a moral or intellectual foundation.

We are relational beings first and foremost who live, learn, love and pass away. This makes us, ultimately, both social and personal at the same time and the makes it hard to square with the individualism fetish just as much as the fodder lovers.


more gibberish, now with an extra layer of whimsy.

their are selfish nitwits, as their always have been and their are multicultural cites with individuals and small groups doing it alone as they share no common bonds, as their always has been... was rome or any of the other big melting pot historical cities any different ? i dont see it.

all i see is modern city folks craving for the coherancy of a small village, the lifestyle we used to have when everyone mattered to each other and knew each other.

their is no religious or moral code that change the nature of a big complex city, their never has been, they have always been brutal places to those that dont find a niche.
Last edited by noddy on Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:22 am

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Wiegel points out the failing is in "radical personal autonomy" and he is right. .


Definitions:
1. Radical Personal Autonomy: I don't like it when my egg is used to make your omelet.

2. Moderate/Reasonable Personal Autonomy: I like it when your egg is used to make my omelet.

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:We are relational beings first and foremost who live, learn, love and pass away. This makes us, ultimately, both social and personal at the same time and the makes it hard to square with the individualism fetish just as much as the fodder lovers.


Somewhat true, some are irrational beings first and foremost who live, don't learn, yearn for love and piss away. :P
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:31 am

Parodite wrote:
Indeed. But maybe not much of a big deal either way? All we do is in the service of our personal and social needs. Wanting to convert others to our faith or opinions (or un-faith and counter-opinions) is normal. To deny Christians, Muslims, Communists or Fascists the right to be selfishly-social aqa socially-selfish would be unfair! :P Although.. it could be in our (us freedom lovers) social self interest if they are on the loosing side... so we better fight them to the max!

In fact and in general, it is a bad idea to tolerate others to the point of self-negation. Especially when done under the guise of "love". "Sir, you have a problem, but I'm going to fix it for you." Ponzi schemes. But are Ponzi schemes bad? They just serve someone's self-interest, less so the one who buys the sh*t believing it is a birthday cake.


This is why you are one of my heroes! Maybe I need to raise the qualification bar?

"They just serve someone's self-interest, ..." Amen Bro. Still hoping to meet one of those mythical creatures who have no self-interest before I die..... rather than those who merely possess uninteresting selves.... :P

I think the big differences between states and churches is guns. That and you can always walk out of one church into another one. Specially if you bring your wallet. ;)
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Parodite » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:45 am

Simple Minded wrote:I think the big differences between states and churches is guns. That and you can always walk out of one church into another one. Specially if you bring your wallet. ;)


Maybe the time that people wear concealed guns in church is not that far off! ;) Or is that time already here i.e. in the U.S. :o

Oh and btw while speaking of... guns are "concealed" already in their belief system - if not professed openly.Thee disbelievers will not escapeth the Wrath of God to gnaw and grind thy own teeth in Hell, or just cease to exist forever when the army of the Lord slays you into oblivion on Judgement day!

It is progress to let God do the dirty work "one day that nobody knows is when" in comparison with fundamentalist fanatics like ISIS who want to do it themselves already, consider it their holy duty. But killbill is always there also in the modern-moderate camps... concealed, on hold, disguised. Moderates breed hard-liners. Same farm, same crop.

Dr. Phil says, in agreement with Kmich, that these are all just projections of our own inner demons. We fear evil and do evil. There is a correlation. Bla bla me again I better should start working again. :o :P
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:08 am

Parodite wrote:In fact and in general, it is a bad idea to tolerate others to the point of self-negation. Especially when done under the guise of "love". "Sir, you have a problem, but I'm going to fix it for you." Ponzi schemes. But are Ponzi schemes bad? They just serve someones self-interest, less so the one who buys the sh*t believing it is a birthday cake.


Self-interest, self-negation...

I'm not one for negotiating altruism here- that's not my religion.

That this conversation always centers around the conflict of that type of atheism is not my problem either- and not the Pope's (as augured&channeled by Mr.Weigel).
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:04 pm

Parodite wrote:
Maybe the time that people wear concealed guns in church is not that far off! ;) Or is that time already here i.e. in the U.S. :o

Oh and btw while speaking of... guns are "concealed" already in their belief system - if not professed openly.Thee disbelievers will not escapeth the Wrath of God to gnaw and grind thy own teeth in Hell, or just cease to exist forever when the army of the Lord slays you into oblivion on Judgement day!

It is progress to let God do the dirty work "one day that nobody knows is when" in comparison with fundamentalist fanatics like ISIS who want to do it themselves already, consider it their holy duty. But killbill is always there also in the modern-moderate camps... concealed, on hold, disguised. Moderates breed hard-liners. Same farm, same crop.

Dr. Phil says, in agreement with Kmich, that these are all just projections of our own inner demons. We fear evil and do evil. There is a correlation. Bla bla me again I better should start working again. :o :P


well said again Bro! :D

Guns in church is pretty much up to each individual church. Private property rights trump concealed carry or open carry privileges.

Very true that we all prefer the psychological threat of the "eternal, metaphysical gun that comes someday, we know not when," to the immediate threat of the physical gun in your face right now.

The interesting aspect to me is how some think exorcising the internal demons of others is a higher priority than exorcising their own internal demons. Then for others, their internal demons are exercise buddies.

it seems to me, we are all ruled by the internal first, then the external.

From an article posted by noddy:

It is Australia’s unique sub-altern identity, it’s long term inferiority complex, a mind set that over-celebrates achievements and buries failures, which leaves Australians at constant peril of psychological colonisation.


We're all Stralians! :D

Interesting that the author chooses to believe that is an Australian trait, rather than a human trait. I don't know why.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:20 pm

Simple Minded wrote:Somewhat true, some are irrational beings first and foremost who live, don't learn, yearn for love and piss away. :P


And yet, your ability to post goes along unmolested. :P or 8-) or ;) ...we really don't have the proper smirking emoji - how am I supposed to display the proper amount of self-satisfaction!
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:23 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Somewhat true, some are irrational beings first and foremost who live, don't learn, yearn for love and piss away. :P


And yet, your ability to post goes along unmolested. :P or 8-) or ;) ...we really don't have the proper smirking emoji - how am I supposed to display the proper amount of self-satisfaction!


:D Glad I can make you smile or smirk.

Not to worry Bro. You are doing fine with the tools available. ;) ;)
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:26 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Parodite wrote:In fact and in general, it is a bad idea to tolerate others to the point of self-negation. Especially when done under the guise of "love". "Sir, you have a problem, but I'm going to fix it for you." Ponzi schemes. But are Ponzi schemes bad? They just serve someones self-interest, less so the one who buys the sh*t believing it is a birthday cake.


Self-interest, self-negation...

I'm not one for negotiating altruism here- that's not my religion.

That this conversation always centers around the conflict of that type of atheism is not my problem either- and not the Pope's (as augured&channeled by Mr.Weigel).


I think the whole religion/atheism/altruism meme is fun to discuss, and a never ending game of parsing terms, but it seems difficult or impossible for any to get past their own life experience, and "truly believe" what others preach.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:50 pm

id like a clear defintion of radical indiviualist that didnt need to reference rural/semi rural families and communities in an idealised past.

i hear it all the time as a concept, usually from people with religious or socialist backgrounds as a rant against capitalism, yet a clear description of the golden era that didnt have it is always hard to come by.

is it some horseshit rose coloured glasses on the 50's ?

its certainly not previous to that in the dickensian early industrialist world.

oh.. maybe its bronze age, ive read several rants that the iron age was the death of cooperation due to the fact that bronze required materials from disparate sites.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:56 pm

Simple Minded wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Somewhat true, some are irrational beings first and foremost who live, don't learn, yearn for love and piss away. :P


And yet, your ability to post goes along unmolested. :P or 8-) or ;) ...we really don't have the proper smirking emoji - how am I supposed to display the proper amount of self-satisfaction!


:D Glad I can make you smile or smirk.

Not to worry Bro. You are doing fine with the tools available. ;) ;)


I admit I am a smirker- cannot help it now- picked it up from my father (like lots of my body language,) lots of smirking through the family tree, I suppose. And it can be misconstrued as a sign of contempt (or actual smugness) even when I personally intend no such thing.

So you could say to smirk, for me, is a personal and social thing; something that makes me "ME"- relationally more so than autonomously individuated.

Life accumulates examples of the above even before we discuss how the eggs are going to be scrambled.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:56 pm

noddy wrote:id like a clear defintion of radical indiviualist that didnt need to reference rural/semi rural families and communities in an idealised past.


How bout "Git yer bloody lips offa me teat!!!!"

I think that is the problem with discussing ideologies (religious, atheist, left, right, liberal, conservative, etc.) there are no clear definitions. They are always very localized and temporal.

Something that does not have physical substance (22 ounce Estwing claw hammer Part number 42B) is very difficult for people to agree upon. But great fodder for discussion.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:05 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
I admit I am a smirker- cannot help it now- picked it up from my father (like lots of my body language,) lots of smirking through the family tree, I suppose. And it can be misconstrued as a sign of contempt (or actual smugness) even when I personally intend no such thing.

So you could say to smirk, for me, is a personal and social thing; something that makes me "ME"- relationally more so than autonomously individuated.

Life accumulates examples of the above even before we discuss how the eggs are going to be scrambled.


No worries. As far as I can tell (assume?, project?) you are one of the personalities who make this forum enjoyable.

As I have often posted "Offense is always in the receiver, not the transmitter."

I still recall reading the following quote in one of Castenada's books:

Self-importance is our greatest enemy; think about it. What weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellow men. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone. Without self-importance we are invulnerable. Self-importance can't be fought with niceties.

Or as my cat would say "Don't bee so hard on yerself, yer only humin." His spellin ain't so good.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:16 pm

noddy wrote:id like a clear defintion of radical indiviualist that didnt need to reference rural/semi rural families and communities in an idealised past.

i hear it all the time as a concept, usually from people with religious or socialist backgrounds as a rant against capitalism, yet a clear description of the golden era that didnt have it is always hard to come by.

is it some horseshit rose coloured glasses on the 50's ?

its certainly not previous to that in the dickensian early industrialist world.

oh.. maybe its bronze age, ive read several rants that the iron age was the death of cooperation due to the fact that bronze required materials from disparate sites.


Right, I am not a fan of arguing this distinction between the "radical" and "moderate" versions of individual autonomy (or framing it around individual autonomy) myself for a variety of reasons related to yours.

Yet, some have made (continue to make) persuasive cases or draw out useful insights.

And as for something more concrete, they'd probably point to techno-libertarian Peter Thiel as an example of someone invested in radical individualism.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:48 pm

the smirk emoji causes SQL ERROR [ mysqli ]

Incorrect string value: '\xF0\x9F\x98\x8F[/...' for column 'post_text' at row 1 [1366]
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:52 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: for something more concrete, they'd probably point to techno-libertarian Peter Thiel as an example of someone invested in radical individualism.


ive started a the usual top down from wiki on this fellow - i had heard of him but not really given him any thought - ill see if i have something to say later.

as to the topic, ive had my clarity moment and decided its purely a side effect of so much middle class effluence, cough, affluence.

rarely in history has our culture supported so many effete wastrals, every suburb is a versaille, millions of woosters and precious few jeeves.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:07 pm

noddy wrote:the smirk emoji causes SQL ERROR [ mysqli ]

Incorrect string value: '\xF0\x9F\x98\x8F[/...' for column 'post_text' at row 1 [1366]


Rugged Individualist Speaker: Someone who uses a language no one else can understand.

Rugged Individualist Listener: He said what? So? I'm supposed to care?

required emoticon, but not necessarily understood: :P
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:41 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Wiegel points out the failing is in "radical personal autonomy" and he is right.

After a century or so of trying to make everyone into cannon fodder/ species fodder/ historical fodder here in the West, the pendulum has swung the other way where the dominant ideologies focus too much on an individual autonomy without a moral or intellectual foundation.

We are relational beings first and foremost who live, learn, love and pass away. This makes us, ultimately, both social and personal at the same time and the makes it hard to square with the individualism fetish just as much as the fodder lovers.


Nap,

This is near the centre of the issue IMHO.

Is it possible for personal autonomy to be "radical"? Can we have too much of it? The idea of individual/personal autonomy being "without moral or intellectual foundation" is a strange one. What is morality and intellectual life if it is not about deciding moral and intellectual questions for ourselves?

Lots of questions raised.

My own view is that personal autonomy is a condition of freedom. It is a condition of practical freedom and freedom of thought. The latter is the most threatened by all or any form of ideological control. To be practically imprisoned is one thing, but to be imprisoned in thought is something else. The OP refers to such imprisonments in the past and the present.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:56 am

being a selfish rotter and living your life all bout 'me me me' is an obvious criticism, im just not convinced that its noticeably worse now than some arbitrary time plucked from history, barring some godawful 'poor people have more soul' thing.


a prison is also a fortress, the detail is always in who has access to the keys.
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