Freedom and controlling ideologies

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:07 am

noddy wrote:being a selfish rotter and living your life all bout 'me me me' is an obvious criticism.


noddy,

You have reminded me to write something about Rand.

Alex.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:49 am

manolo wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:Wiegel points out the failing is in "radical personal autonomy" and he is right.

After a century or so of trying to make everyone into cannon fodder/ species fodder/ historical fodder here in the West, the pendulum has swung the other way where the dominant ideologies focus too much on an individual autonomy without a moral or intellectual foundation.

We are relational beings first and foremost who live, learn, love and pass away. This makes us, ultimately, both social and personal at the same time and the makes it hard to square with the individualism fetish just as much as the fodder lovers.


Nap,

This is near the centre of the issue IMHO.

Is it possible for personal autonomy to be "radical"? Can we have too much of it? The idea of individual/personal autonomy being "without moral or intellectual foundation" is a strange one. What is morality and intellectual life if it is not about deciding moral and intellectual questions for ourselves?

Lots of questions raised.

My own view is that personal autonomy is a condition of freedom. It is a condition of practical freedom and freedom of thought. The latter is the most threatened by all or any form of ideological control. To be practically imprisoned is one thing, but to be imprisoned in thought is something else. The OP refers to such imprisonments in the past and the present.

Alex.


good questions Alex.

The obvious answer on the political front would be I don't have to pay taxes, or I don't have to obey the law. But if Fred wants to live in the woods, or even on the street, with no income, and he is not trespassing, then no harm, no foul. Leave him be.

It reminds me of the motorcycle helmet debate. In the name of freedom, some don't want to wear helmets. Boy, is that a first world problem or what?

In the name of reducing costs to society, motorcycle helmets are mandatory in some states. May or may not be true. If the helmet saves you from serious injury, it may reduce costs, if no helmet means death, even more costs may be saved.

I always thought a signed contract with the state, that if you don't a helmet, you accept that no care from first responders or hospitals will be rendered was a reasonable agreement. But I'm sure society would not be comfortable leaving a bleeding or dead body on the side of the road. Even if that was the law, many, perhaps most would feel the desire to stop and help.

The same would be true for Social Security taxes. Even though Fred agreed to accept the risk, after decades of not saving for his senior years, society would not be comfortable watching him live in poverty, even if he was reaping what he had sown.

In that respect, those are many programs that are anti-freedom, in the name of compassion. Hmmmm..... maybe "we" often don't want what we profess to desire. We want freedom to succeed and security nets to shield us from failure. Yet we think the contradiction is a function of government? No wonder politicians can't make people happy.

I suspect that in many cases restricting personal freedom or preventing "radical personal autonomy", is about maintaining continuity and stability of culture, or power. Passing laws that forbid A, B, and C, while permitting X, Y, and Z provides guidance to society, especially parents. In this role, state functions parallel church functions.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:56 am

noddy wrote:
a prison is also a fortress, the detail is always in who has access to the keys.


Well said. One's chosen ideology/perspective is probably the most commonly functioning prison or fortress.

Pity those who do not realize the keys are in their other pant's pocket.

Be wary of those selling keys!

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm

Peter Thiel's Hyper-Libertarian Cartesianism


Peter Thiel's Hyper-Libertarian Cartesianism

by Peter Lawler

Today, our most resolute Cartesians are libertarians. They’re for gay rights, property rights, and against any ideology that treats the individual as part of a whole. They are typically “nonfoundationalists.” That means MY irreducible existence is the bottom line, and there’s no reason why I have to explain why. Recourse to God or nature or country or whatever to defend myself or account for my significance makes me less than myself, and such foundationalism might well get me slaughtered for a cause that’s not my own.

The fabulously wealthy (the PayPal guy) Peter Thiel proclaims in his spirited “The Education of a Libertarian” that "I stand against confiscatory taxes, totalitarian collectives, and the ideology of the inevitability of the death of every individual." He stands against everything that works against the perpetuation of the authentic liberty of the “I” called Thiel.

In some ways, the brilliant Thiel might be our instructive Cartesian today, because he has no democratic illusions about the Cartesian “I.” That thoughtful experience of liberation remains rare, precisely because it’s so contrary to our natures. He's a Cartesian who may well have read Descartes.

At Stanford, the French theorist Rene Girard taught him about “mimetic desire.” People usually don’t make choices about what they want from an individual perspective. One’s desires aren’t actually one’s own, but are mediated through and borrowed from other people. People have always rather thoughtlessly lived in herds, and so they’ve lacked genuinely personal or liberated or Cartesian identities. The omnipresent public opinion or fashion is just the ideology of the herd these days.

With that insight in mind, Thiel got hugely rich by exploiting at early point the unprecedented mimetic or herd-forming powers of the social media—Facebook, PayPal, and so forth. The Girardian insight, it seems, is what led Thiel to Leo Strauss, the philosopher whose theme is the extreme difficulty in rational or philosophic liberation of oneself from all-pervasive social/political dogma or the Platonic “cave.” For Strauss and himself, Thiel explains, the central problem involves how to think independently of the “mob.” Properly understood, that’s the libertarian problem—how to escape from political correctness understood in the broadest sense.

According to Strauss, modern, Cartesian enlightenment hasn’t and can’t liberate most people from the herd. Real enlightenment or liberation has always been the rare exception to the human rule. Thiel expresses his agreement with both Strauss and Descartes that human freedom is the highest human good, and that members of the herd lack that authentic experience. That’s why Thiel, like most libertarians and Socrates himself, sees democracy as opposed to liberty. Authentic liberation, Thiel and Socrates also agree, requires the escape for the collectivist impulses of politics in all its forms.

Now the people who run Facebook must, in fact, be impressed by how easy it is to manipulate the herdish desires or social instincts of most people. And one interpretation of Cartesianism is the liberated “I”—the modern tyrant or entrepreneur—imposing its will not so much on nature in general as on the blind desires of other people. Thiel’s liberation is not the same as that of the Socratic philosopher talked up by Strauss. It’s the very opposite of getting over oneself and learning how to die.

The libertarian ideology of the “I” refusing to be suckered by herd instinct is one that can be shared much more widely than the questionable wisdom of Socrates. So Thiel is more optimistic about enlightenment—or our libertarian drift—than Strauss. He thinks of Facebook both as expression of herd identity and as a possible way of widespread dissident—if not democratic—liberation.

For Thiel, unlike Strauss or Socrates, one precondition for the pursuit of every human good—including the highest good—is being freed from the inevitability of death. So Thiel criticizes the intellectuals and philosophers who “retreated to tending their small gardens” instead of devoting themselves to waging war against “the relentless indifference of the universe” to personal or individual being. The escape from nature to freedom can’t be mere imaginary or virtual or intellectual. It must be real. That's why Thiel’s turns his attention to outer space and “seasteading,” in addition of course to promoting the coming of the Singularity.

Ignoring or failing to come to terms with one’s mortality, according to Socrates, is part of the irrational self-denial of members of the herd. Thiel adds that accepting death in some Socratic fashion is finally part of that irrationality too. Like any Cartesian, Thiel regards himself as going beyond Socrates in a Socratic direction by being deeply skeptical of any sort of rationalization of death. The extinction of the “I” is unacceptable, and a free being can regard death, with optimism, as yet another problem to be solved.

There’s no reason to believe that we’re merely natural beings, and, with the Christians, the Cartesian transhumanists believe that it’s not the necessary destiny of the free person to die. The rational and industrious displays of personal freedom—technology—is the hope we can believe in, and, for Thiel, a key problem of our time that we’ve stopping believing in our technological future enough.

Thiel understands that “the longevity project” is at the core of the modern/Baconian/Cartesian scientific progress to conquer nature. It can’t be abandoned without the needlessly destructive abandonment of the optimism that fuels our hope in what we can do for ourselves in freedom.

So Thiel disagrees with even Steve Jobs’ rather Darwinian observation that each us can welcome death as indispensable for change. That’s not change any “I” can believe in. The argument that my death is good for any kind of evolution or required to fend off the social pathologies of an aging society is too “consequentialist.” I—Thiel—don’t exist for anyone else.

Still, the least we must say that the Cartesian (Straussian) Thiel can be criticizes on empirical grounds for failing to distinguish one herd from another, and so for calling various human social and political forms herds. He can’t accord dignity or real personal significance or identity to anyone serving any whole greater than oneself—from family to country to species.

That criticism goes for anyone who says that the fundamental human alternatives are individualism or collectivism. Both individualism and collectivism unrealistically deny the relational dimensions of personal identity and personal significance, and consciousness itself is redeemed most of all by the experience of joyfully knowing with others a reality (being and beings) outside oneself.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:34 pm

interesting, in a way.

how would he differ from an aleister crowley, who from my quick reading of the above is a kindred spirit in self driven direction, if not rhetoric.

we might go back furthur and dabble in a bit of de sade or one of the other frenchy libertines for such an `I' driven viewpoint

im starting to smell abit of depressed german aswell.

--

i really struggle to take the trans humanists seriously, i know we can and will play games with the appearance of things but the internals are no different to what the'y have ever been, some might argue that the ultra rationals like mr techno above have lost alot of skill in that regard compared to the long history of rituals and chants the big religions carry with them.

thanks for bringing him up , he is a good reference point for this discussion.

i have some time off soon, might spend a bit of it reading this.

--

One’s desires aren’t actually one’s own, but are mediated through and borrowed from other people. People have always rather thoughtlessly lived in herds, and so they’ve lacked genuinely personal or liberated or Cartesian identities. The omnipresent public opinion or fashion is just the ideology of the herd these days.


strikes me as borderline stoic
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:19 pm

noddy wrote:interesting, in a way.

how would he differ from an aleister crowley, who from my quick reading of the above is a kindred spirit in self driven direction, if not rhetoric.


He would in that sense; but so would a lot of our prominent European figures in the modern era- especially those working through philosophical-humanism.

There is now a very old western tradition of associating Prometheus with Satan, right? [And of course in some circles, the Enlightenment itself.] Thiel is very much apart of that tradition now, even if his motto isn't as blunt as "Do as thou wilt," so much as it's, "Do what thou can." [which make sense that a Silicon Valley/San Francisco guy would come through that sort of matrix.]

There is a lot of good, and good criticism, in his ideas.

I've also had teachers, non-Randians/non-libertarians at that, who would make fine arguments for why we should believe in what we're calling the "radical" individualists much more heartily than the moderates or any sort of collectivists. To them, the last two centuries in western history have been rather reactionary and conservative and we've gotten far afield from upending the old superstitions and really liberating man in his promethan struggle.

Instead, we've allowed artists like Mary Shelley and philosophers like Hegel scare us away from taking a hold of ourselves (and our species) as we should. So guys like Thiel and the trans-humanists, however far off the reservation they may be (or representative of just one type of radical individualist), are a clarion call to get back into fighting shape here and stop getting distracted by our own shadows.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:08 am

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
noddy wrote:interesting, in a way.

how would he differ from an aleister crowley, who from my quick reading of the above is a kindred spirit in self driven direction, if not rhetoric.


He would in that sense; but so would a lot of our prominent European figures in the modern era- especially those working through philosophical-humanism.

There is now a very old western tradition of associating Prometheus with Satan, right? [And of course in some circles, the Enlightenment itself.] Thiel is very much apart of that tradition now, even if his motto isn't as blunt as "Do as thou wilt," so much as it's, "Do what thou can." [which make sense that a Silicon Valley/San Francisco guy would come through that sort of matrix.]

There is a lot of good, and good criticism, in his ideas.

I've also had teachers, non-Randians/non-libertarians at that, who would make fine arguments for why we should believe in what we're calling the "radical" individualists much more heartily than the moderates or any sort of collectivists. To them, the last two centuries in western history have been rather reactionary and conservative and we've gotten far afield from upending the old superstitions and really liberating man in his promethan struggle.

Instead, we've allowed artists like Mary Shelley and philosophers like Hegel scare us away from taking a hold of ourselves (and our species) as we should. So guys like Thiel and the trans-humanists, however far off the reservation they may be (or representative of just one type of radical individualist), are a clarion call to get back into fighting shape here and stop getting distracted by our own shadows.


excellent points - so many would argue the uberman/wotan thing is just the latent lurking paganism thing all over again and thats satan rearing his head.

we seem to really struggle with giving the space inbetween rand and marx a voice, or vision, except perhaps during the peak of protestant high culture, fragile and temporary as it was.

i suspect the biggest problem is the self glorifying gnostic thing that travels with it, the dismissal of the others who cant keep up as sub human, yet this reaction itself is the bucket of crabs problem that holds back so many.

oh dear, back to spenglerverse 101, the neverending argument again.

i can even bring in a forced tolkein reference to tie this top of the head dribble together - gandalf was odin crossed with jesus, protestant high culture perfected, the odin uberman that could keep his depression at bay with his love of the community.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:46 am

noddy wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
noddy wrote:interesting, in a way.

how would he differ from an aleister crowley, who from my quick reading of the above is a kindred spirit in self driven direction, if not rhetoric.


He would in that sense; but so would a lot of our prominent European figures in the modern era- especially those working through philosophical-humanism.

There is now a very old western tradition of associating Prometheus with Satan, right? [And of course in some circles, the Enlightenment itself.] Thiel is very much apart of that tradition now, even if his motto isn't as blunt as "Do as thou wilt," so much as it's, "Do what thou can." [which make sense that a Silicon Valley/San Francisco guy would come through that sort of matrix.]

There is a lot of good, and good criticism, in his ideas.

I've also had teachers, non-Randians/non-libertarians at that, who would make fine arguments for why we should believe in what we're calling the "radical" individualists much more heartily than the moderates or any sort of collectivists. To them, the last two centuries in western history have been rather reactionary and conservative and we've gotten far afield from upending the old superstitions and really liberating man in his promethan struggle.

Instead, we've allowed artists like Mary Shelley and philosophers like Hegel scare us away from taking a hold of ourselves (and our species) as we should. So guys like Thiel and the trans-humanists, however far off the reservation they may be (or representative of just one type of radical individualist), are a clarion call to get back into fighting shape here and stop getting distracted by our own shadows.


excellent points - so many would argue the uberman/wotan thing is just the latent lurking paganism thing all over again and thats satan rearing his head.

we seem to really struggle with giving the space inbetween rand and marx a voice, or vision, except perhaps during the peak of protestant high culture, fragile and temporary as it was.

i suspect the biggest problem is the self glorifying gnostic thing that travels with it, the dismissal of the others who cant keep up as sub human, yet this reaction itself is the bucket of crabs problem that holds back so many.

oh dear, back to spenglerverse 101, the neverending argument again.

i can even bring in a forced tolkein reference to tie this top of the head dribble together - gandalf was odin crossed with jesus, protestant high culture perfected, the odin uberman that could keep his depression at bay with his love of the community.


:lol:

Bravo gents. You intellectuals have so many more flavors of binoid in yer quivers than us commoners. I salute you both. :D

Bruce Banner- Hulk anyone?

Dennis Miller had a tee shirt contest. One of the submittals was his picture with the caption "The Dennis Miller Show, insert obscure reference here."

I think this is the 2010's version of "The way to do is to be." or "Be like water."

Hippies is old school. What do you guys call yourselves (was that a bad word?) today? ;)

Post modern, trans-human, post-labelistic, trans-labelistic.... all the same?
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:19 pm



I would find the label of "intelligence-amplified dream ape" most flattering.

Do you prefer flowers or chocolates? :P
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:31 pm

Simple Minded wrote:I would find the label of "intelligence-amplified dream ape" most flattering.


only if you describe your patterns of usage for smart drugs and show your commitment to your post human, potential maximised, self.

Simple Minded wrote:Do you prefer flowers or chocolates? :P


if the flowers have enough nectar to make mead they may prove useful.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:26 pm

noddy wrote:excellent points - so many would argue the uberman/wotan thing is just the latent lurking paganism thing all over again and thats satan rearing his head.

we seem to really struggle with giving the space inbetween rand and marx a voice, or vision, except perhaps during the peak of protestant high culture, fragile and temporary as it was.

i suspect the biggest problem is the self glorifying gnostic thing that travels with it, the dismissal of the others who cant keep up as sub human, yet this reaction itself is the bucket of crabs problem that holds back so many.

oh dear, back to spenglerverse 101, the neverending argument again.

i can even bring in a forced tolkein reference to tie this top of the head dribble together - gandalf was odin crossed with jesus, protestant high culture perfected, the odin uberman that could keep his depression at bay with his love of the community.


Yep, right back into the spenglerverse.

Image
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:49 am

Simple Minded wrote:
The obvious answer on the political front would be I don't have to pay taxes, or I don't have to obey the law. But if Fred wants to live in the woods, or even on the street, with no income, and he is not trespassing, then no harm, no foul. Leave him be.


SM,

You won't be surprised to hear that paying taxes and obeying the law brings us freedom.

I can get in my car and drive anywhere in the UK (or indeed the EU) by virtue of my road tax and driving licence. This is a freedom that would have been beyond the dreams of my woad spattered bonded forbears.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:39 am

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
The obvious answer on the political front would be I don't have to pay taxes, or I don't have to obey the law. But if Fred wants to live in the woods, or even on the street, with no income, and he is not trespassing, then no harm, no foul. Leave him be.


SM,

You won't be surprised to hear that paying taxes and obeying the law brings us freedom.

I can get in my car and drive anywhere in the UK (or indeed the EU) by virtue of my road tax and driving licence. This is a freedom that would have been beyond the dreams of my woad spattered bonded forbears.

Alex.


Very true Alex, but not for the person who chooses to view themselves as oppressed by those same taxes and laws.

Within an hour of watching a young lady with drop-dead gorgeous supermodel looks, and wearing a Harvard sweatshirt (probably at least a third generation American), speaking very articulately at an OWS rally about oppression and lack of jobs in the US, I was in line at a convenient store behind 5 Mexican looking dudes who wore dirty clothes and spoke very broken Spanglish who were each getting money orders for over $1800.

I suspect it would have been as difficult to convince the Harvard girl that she was free, as it would have been to convince the Mexican dudes that they were oppressed.

Damn those mental filters!!!
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:42 am

noddy wrote:
only if you describe your patterns of usage for smart drugs and show your commitment to your post human, potential maximised, self.


check yer telepathic inbox.

Cool part about being post-human is the vanity is gone and one no longer cares what the humans think. :P

Name the nootropic drug as powerful as self-delusion. :shock:
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:47 am

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:

Instead, we've allowed artists like Mary Shelley and philosophers like Hegel scare us away from taking a hold of ourselves (and our species) as we should. So guys like Thiel and the trans-humanists, however far off the reservation they may be (or representative of just one type of radical individualist), are a clarion call to get back into fighting shape here and stop getting distracted by our own shadows.


timeless advice, but "we" can never agree on which guru to follow.... :(
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:08 pm

Simple Minded wrote:
Very true Alex, but not for the person who chooses to view themselves as oppressed by those same taxes and laws.

Within an hour of watching a young lady with drop-dead gorgeous supermodel looks, and wearing a Harvard sweatshirt (probably at least a third generation American), speaking very articulately at an OWS rally about oppression and lack of jobs in the US, I was in line at a convenient store behind 5 Mexican looking dudes who wore dirty clothes and spoke very broken Spanglish who were each getting money orders for over $1800.

I suspect it would have been as difficult to convince the Harvard girl that she was free, as it would have been to convince the Mexican dudes that they were oppressed.

Damn those mental filters!!!


SM,

We talk at cross purposes, but very pleasantly I might add. :)

I have found few, if any, right wing Americans who could allow that there is freedom within a system. It is like the word 'system' is such a dog whistle that communication ends right there.

However, to stick with the road system as an example. No, we don't all drive the same cars, or have expensive cars, but the road is there for everyone. Here in the UK we can ride a bicycle on any road except motorways. It is possible to ride the length of the country on good public roads. For impoverished seniors there is free bus travel and this too applies in every county. Some folks have done the whole length of the country on free local buses.

From the above, there is no way that I can see how a national public road system is a form of oppression, except maybe to the landowners who had a bit snipped off for the road building. Even there, we have built bridges across motorways just for cows, so that a landowner can keep the fields in touch. Thoughtful that.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:17 pm

.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:39 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
....Damn those mental filters!!!


SM,

We talk at cross purposes, but very pleasantly I might add. :)

I have found few, if any, right wing Americans who could allow that there is freedom within a system. It is like the word 'system' is such a dog whistle that communication ends right there.......


Alex.


alex,

Amen, no point in getting nasty about ever present differences of opinion and culture. It will be a very sorry world when all agree with me. Thankfully, no one currently does. :)

Me suspects that "right wing Americans" might be your very own special form of dog whistle. Think about that fer a spell. me thinketh thou projects much more than I post. I think the herd of "right wing Americans" may only exist in your mind. tough to tell a right winger from a left winger, or an American from another nationality by observation.

"Free" is a fun concept to imagine, but it does not exist. "Free" roads, college, housing, medicine, and food are all ideal.

My young Brit co-workers felt that you (we speculated you were a 30%er) oppressed them when you allowed the NHS to pay for your medical treatment due to a self-inflicted motorcycle accident. His freedom was oppressed by your freedom to operate a motorcycle. He wants to keep more of his money, and views your "right" to free medical treatment for injury caused by your own actions as a threat.

Who pays, how much, who benefits, and how long can it be sustained are affects that are always present, and always very subjective. My English buddy still lives here after decades of telling me England is "better." My Irish friend comes here for medical and dental work cause "Health care in Ireland is horrible."

Robin Hood is not a magician. Better is also very subjective. Hopefully, that will never change. The system will always be subjective to discussion and evolution.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:44 pm

manolo wrote:
SM,

We talk at cross purposes, but very pleasantly I might add. :)

I have found few, if any, right wing Americans who could allow that there is freedom within a system. It is like the word 'system' is such a dog whistle that communication ends right there.

Alex.


Alex,

You sure you don't have me confused with the Stralians.... after we get kicked out of your country, we all start to look alike after a century or two.... :D
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:19 pm

Simple Minded wrote:
"Free" is a fun concept to imagine, but it does not exist. "Free" roads, college, housing, medicine, and food are all ideal.




SM,

We are dancing around the issues again. One way that I define the right wing mindset is your sentence above.

Of course there is no such thing as a free lunch; someone pays. But, for the impoverished senior who cannot afford to travel a free bus pass is not ideal, it is hard and harsh fact. The senior presents a bus pass and the driver does not ask for money. Do ideologies matter to that senior at that point in time? I think not. What matters is getting on the bus. It is the same with college, housing, medicine and food. These things are substantive and have been bitterly fought for against right wingers who resent such calls on their wallets.

As a senior I receive free bus travel, free healthcare, subsidised dental, cheap car insurance, free winter fuel, free eye tests, discounted restaurant meals. It is a good life. Am I going to get all ethical and ideological about this bounty? There is an old countryman's saying - Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. :)

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:52 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
"Free" is a fun concept to imagine, but it does not exist. "Free" roads, college, housing, medicine, and food are all ideal.




SM,

We are dancing around the issues again. One way that I define the right wing mindset is your sentence above.

Of course there is no such thing as a free lunch; someone pays. But, for the impoverished senior who cannot afford to travel a free bus pass is not ideal, it is hard and harsh fact. The senior presents a bus pass and the driver does not ask for money. Do ideologies matter to that senior at that point in time? I think not. What matters is getting on the bus. It is the same with college, housing, medicine and food. These things are substantive and have been bitterly fought for against right wingers who resent such calls on their wallets.

As a senior I receive free bus travel, free healthcare, subsidised dental, cheap car insurance, free winter fuel, free eye tests, discounted restaurant meals. It is a good life. Am I going to get all ethical and ideological about this bounty? There is an old countryman's saying - Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. :)

Alex.


Alex,

I don't think we are dancing around the issues at all. You are on the receiving end, someone else is on the paying end, you like it more than they. No surprise at all. You have no idea what their loss is in order to fund your gain. If we go any farther, are we not just discussing without knowledge?

Are you more moral than they? I doubt it. How to determine if program X helps more people than it harms? Very subjective.
Are you a scumbag leech? I doubt it. You are simply taking advantage as the system is currently structured.
Are they nastier than you? I doubt it. They are simply trying to hold on to their assets, you would do the same if I came for one of your motorcycles. ;)

In time, if the young'uns get tired of paying for the seniors, (especially since many of these programs were voted into law prior to their birth, or prior to them coming of voting age, when the demographic pyramid was sustainable) and vote to confiscate the assets of the then current seniors, hey majority rules. It was "fair" when the majority thought it "good," it will be fair when conditions change or when the majority thinks it "bad." Why bring morality into the concept of democratic rule?

You are of course free to define right and left as you wish, and we all enjoying divining the intent and morality of those we have never met.

I enjoy the mental gymnastics people go thru trying to make complex reality fit into a binary discussion of religion or politics. My buddy professes that England is better, yet he stays in the US. He wants me to buy into Marxism, yet when I ask him to indoctrinate his daughter with those ideals, since she will be at the age of having abilities, when I am at the age of having needs, he refuses. Is he a right winger or a left winger?

He claims to be a left winger, I tell him he is so full of shite, his eyes are brown. He is as right wing as the rest of us. He smiles sheepishly.....

That is what makes it fun. Mental modeling, making lots of assumptions when we don't have information, or when we find the sheer number of variables involved to be mentally taxing, we should come up with a catchy name for it....Hmmmm...... ideology?

The unjust part is we can never determine our own labels, only the observers can. If Fred could determine the label others must apply to him, well, that would be just plain... selfish.... :lol:
Sometimes other people "trigger" me. More often than not though, I do it to myself.
Kinda like Marxist sex.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Parodite » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:49 pm

SM, I agree. The misery of others is just our own perception. They ought to pay taxes for the space they occupy in my brain triggering all these false emotions and projections! When now I see a poor beggar in the streets, or even a sick patient who is after abusing other people like doctors to steal their time.. I just laugh at them right in the face. And when they try label me as "selfish" I even just laugh louder! :P

There is a new-age school of thought (not sure if it still has much followers) that says that everything that happens to you is of your own choice. When you get sick, you want it. When you get a car accident, you want it. That all happiness and unhappiness is self-chosen. Now there we have some real rugged individualism. I think I'll become a "Heal thyself first!" fundamentalist, like you. ;) :shock:
Outside, away from the noise, grows a flower.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:16 pm

Parodite wrote:SM, I agree. The misery of others is just our own perception. They ought to pay taxes for the space they occupy in my brain triggering all these false emotions and projections! When now I see a poor beggar in the streets, or even a sick patient who is after abusing other people like doctors to steal their time.. I just laugh at them right in the face. And when they try label me as "selfish" I even just laugh louder! :P

There is a new-age school of thought (not sure if it still has much followers) that says that everything that happens to you is of your own choice. When you get sick, you want it. When you get a car accident, you want it. That all happiness and unhappiness is self-chosen. Now there we have some real rugged individualism. I think I'll become a "Heal thyself first!" fundamentalist, like you. ;) :shock:


Parodite,

Me thinketh thou projecteth too mucheth. You do agreeth with your own perception, of that , I have no doubt.

Try to read what I post, and only what I post, rather than try to divine my intent or character, or try to turn complex situations into a "the light switch is either on or off" choice. "My gang lives in light, your gang lives in darkness." Really.... :roll:

If you support programs that take from A to give to B, that is fine. All I ask is show me the data that demonstrates the program helps more than it harms. Show me the financial data that shows it is sustainable before claiming it is "good." Show me that it is not the voting generations robbing from those too young to vote (difficult or impossible to do when govts prefer deficit spending).

I agree with you 110% on the "our own perception" part.

Humans are loaded with hypocrisy, and I find it entertaining.

My UAW brothers preaching left when surrounded by union members, but practicing/preaching right when it comes to their kids or their wallets. My English buddy who preaches leftism, but then goes on to state "I could never afford a house this big back home." and still lives here My Irish friend who preaches the virtue of leftism, but when he comes over here, he spends a ton of money buying stuff and shipping it to Ireland, especially at Christmas. "The identical items cost 5 to 15 times as much in Ireland. My relatives think I am most generous."

So I say "Wait a minute. You preach the virtues of leftism, you understand the cost of leftist ideology is buried in the higher prices of consumer items, and you circumvent paying that cost by shopping here and sending stuff home, therefore denying the system of the money it needs to function. You don't think that is hypocritical?"

"Well, it is my money, I can spend it however I wish."

Generous leftist, or selfish rightist, or simply human? On this side of the pond we have an old saying "Talk is cheap!"
Last edited by Simple Minded on Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sometimes other people "trigger" me. More often than not though, I do it to myself.
Kinda like Marxist sex.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:46 pm

even for someone as anti gubmint as me i think parodites stance that the officials responsible for the taxes, licenses and legislation around vehicles and road use are exactly the same as retarded beggars on the street is perhaps a tad overblown.

they are more like the thieves that break into your house and then sue you if they trip on a skateboard.

i do enjoy listening to stances that making things more expensive and more controlled is making them freer, its the kind of mental gymnastics which leaves me dumbfounded.
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