Freedom and controlling ideologies

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:06 pm

noddy wrote:
....i do enjoy listening to stances that making things more expensive and more controlled is making them freer, its the kind of mental gymnastics which leaves me dumbfounded.


that is exactly what I mean when I use the phrase "people demand free lunches and square circles."

Forcing Fred, even when Fred is poor to pay more for food, clothing, fuel, housing, etc. everyday of his life, is order to provide cheaper or free ________ that Fred may need often or may not need ever is "compassionate"....? Forcing poor Fred to pay to subsidize _______ for the richer Fred....? Mental gymnastics indeed.

Telling stupid Fred that ____ is free, he will not pay, big oil, big food, and big medicines industries will pay. That case is interesting, but more of a stupid Fred reaps what he sows.

People....... entertaining as hell.... especially when they preach what they do not practice.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Parodite » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:16 pm

There is little doubt in my mind that poorer people tend to vote left do so for the same selfish reasons as richer people tend to vote right. That the leftiers want to put more controls on the freedom of the rightiers and tax them accordingly is good selfish sense. Equally, rightiers who want to control and protect their own freedom and wealth do not wisheth to render too much controls to leftiers that would be adverse to their own interests.

Rich rightiers need as much rules and controls as do poorer leftiers to serve and protect their own interests, and their freedom as they define and experience it. Notably in the relationship employers-employees. This means that in our complex societies a whole forest of laws and regulations grew out of these realities and poor-rch relationships. And law enforcement that can back them up. Can't distinguish much ideology there.. just competing interests.

Bringing in moralities and the never ending "us" versus "them" quarrels and paradoxes I find boring. Of course, SM, you can ask the question if a poor senior citizen in Alex' UK would be hurt more loosing his free bus rides than a richie who because of that can only afford three cars instead of four... indeed all suffering is subjective. Personally I don't underestimate the specific ways in which richies can suffer, nor do I look down on them. When you have a lot of power, money and/or prestige.. you also have a lot to loose of course and it really hurts when it happens. But how to compare and measure the suffering of people objectively? Not an easy task.

It seems to me that Alex' point is that he looks at things as self-serving is richier rightists do, but that strangely enough rightists seem to deny him this right and doubt his moral intentions and ask if he is really sure that what he does and wants is not harming others from whom he takes (via taxes et-al spent on social services). The easy answer is of course that richer righties take as much and perhaps even more from poorer lefties and never ask themselves the same question. They always assume they act from the default "right" position that their freedoms and controls over that freedom should not be taken away from them, and try convince poorer lefties it is also better for them if they do not even try doing that.

That being said, there are richies who nevertheless vote leftwing, and poor folks who vote rightwing. But seems usually the case for non-economic reasons.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby YMix » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:28 pm

noddy wrote:i do enjoy listening to stances that making things more expensive and more controlled is making them freer, its the kind of mental gymnastics which leaves me dumbfounded.


If you've ever knowingly bought something made in 'stralia over its cheaper Chinese version, then you know the price tag isn't the only basis for decisions.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:57 am

The never ending task of defining righties and lefties continues.... Is it ideological? If Fred donates more to charity than Joe, is Fred more right or more left than Joe? Can the rightness or leftness of a subject be determined by observed behavior, or is it purely an ideological construct?

I think for many their ideological leaning is genetic. The lefties seem to prefer social to solitude, and vacationing at the beach, while the righties seem to prefer solitude to social, and vacationing in the mountains.

After our company became AREVA, we started to get a lot of Europeans come over on long term assignments. Looking back, the pattern was obvious. Right after getting off the plane the newbie would proselytize about how European Socialism was more moral than American Capitalism. The discussions were great. After a few months the proselytizers got quieter,and at about the one year mark many of them could be heard expounding upon the virtues of capitalism and the free market, and how they wished their countries would become more capitalistic like America. Watching the discussions between new European arrivals and those who had been here for over a year, morph from quiet discussions in English to very heated discussions in their native language was most entertaining.

We all like the freebies the state provides, but when some learn that the hidden cost of the freebies is buried in the cost of consumer items, they lose their "faith."

It gets hard to discern the morality of right versus left where self interest is concerned. The left wing college student becomes the right wing taxpayer who becomes the left wing pensioner. Seeing people morph from right to left or left to right during the day is even more enlightening.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:15 am

Parodite wrote:
Of course, SM, you can ask the question if a poor senior citizen in Alex' UK would be hurt more loosing his free bus rides than a richie who because of that can only afford three cars instead of four... indeed all suffering is subjective.


I am surprised that you are able to read that concern into my posts. Again I think you are projecting. I am more concerned about how much have the poor suffered due to years or decades of paying above free market prices for some products and services, in order to obtain other products and services at below free market cost. How to evaluate? Have they been helped or screwed? Who gets to make the determination? Those whose careers depend upon the maintenance of dependency to continue wielding power?

Parodite wrote:Personally I don't underestimate the specific ways in which richies can suffer, nor do I look down on them. When you have a lot of power, money and/or prestige.. you also have a lot to loose of course and it really hurts when it happens. But how to compare and measure the suffering of people objectively? Not an easy task.


Agreed. Not any easy task, no easier than the above evaluations.

Parodite wrote:It seems to me that Alex' point is that he looks at things as self-serving is richier rightists do, but that strangely enough rightists seem to deny him this right and doubt his moral intentions and ask if he is really sure that what he does and wants is not harming others from whom he takes (via taxes et-al spent on social services). The easy answer is of course that richer righties take as much and perhaps even more from poorer lefties and never ask themselves the same question. They always assume they act from the default "right" position that their freedoms and controls over that freedom should not be taken away from them, and try convince poorer lefties it is also better for them if they do not even try doing that.

That being said, there are richies who nevertheless vote leftwing, and poor folks who vote rightwing. But seems usually the case for non-economic reasons.


It would be interesting to see stats on various regions of right vs. left. In the US it seems less wealth dependent, and more population density dependent. I'm not sure your discussion of right and left applies well to the US, but I do not doubt your expertise in your own local arena.

I don't doubt Alex's moral intentions in the least. But the lack of accuracy of measurement makes everything very subjective. The whole stereo typing of righties are hard hearted, selfish, capable pigs, while lefties are well intentioned, but innumerate, incompetent, losers (at least here in the US) gets real boring. In a country as large and diverse as the US, only the locals seem to know what is going on and how to respond.

It gets very difficult for the outsider to prescribe, and luckily, for the time being, still relatively easy to vote with one's feet.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:10 am

YMix wrote:
noddy wrote:i do enjoy listening to stances that making things more expensive and more controlled is making them freer, its the kind of mental gymnastics which leaves me dumbfounded.


If you've ever knowingly bought something made in 'stralia over its cheaper Chinese version, then you know the price tag isn't the only basis for decisions.


this is not some generic conceptpual thing, it was very specificly about

You won't be surprised to hear that paying taxes and obeying the law brings us freedom.

I can get in my car and drive anywhere in the UK (or indeed the EU) by virtue of my road tax and driving licence. This is a freedom that would have been beyond the dreams of my woad spattered bonded forbears.


i think that is absolute nonsense, gibberish even.

it may have made the world healther (debatable) it may have made it safer (highly debatable) it most certainly has not made the world more free or life easier for the poor, its exactly the opposite,see parodites rant about freedom picking on poor that follows it :roll:

you cant just use any old home made vehicle like eastern europe or much of asia, you must have purchased a brand new one from a government approved supplier, then paid road taxes and licenses for yourself and the car, and they will stop you and confiscated the car if it doesnt meet the visual approval of a cynical policeman.

the roads themselves are littered with speed cameras and police bus's which will stop you and charge you for drink/drug driving until you give them blood samples to PROVE your not (*)

a system by the scared puritan middle class for the scared purtian middle class and the poor can rot in hell, its many things, its not free, its as anti poor as you could possibly make it, i know because im poor and maintaining a middle class approved car is one of the big struggles in my weekly existance.


(*) a keener observer might note that this is guilty until proven innocent, the opposite of free, the opposite of traditional good law, i wouldnt expect that to bother anyone, because it doesnt in the real world, doubleplusgood.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:01 am

Simple Minded wrote:I don't think we are dancing around the issues at all. You are on the receiving end, someone else is on the paying end, you like it more than they.


SM,

I see that you have returned to a binary model. This is the old pay/receive, tax/spend dualism argument that we debate so much on the forums.

However, your quote above is a 'binary' simplification of the issue. It is not proven that people don't always dislike paying taxes, despite what conservatives almost invariably tell us. There is a broader motive in living in a country with decent public services, a motive that applies beyond the mean considerations of the 'me' psychology.

I would suggest a look at Acts 20:35 for further enlightenment.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:15 am

noddy wrote:
i think that is absolute nonsense, gibberish even.



noddy,

Lovely. :) You deny that a public road system brings us freedom to travel. It is a beautiful reductio ad absurdum that there could be a freedom to not have roads, and it is true. It would be a kind of freedom that maybe some libertarians dream of.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:22 am

i think you are dabbling in a most absurd bit of binary absolutism gibberish.

my country is 99.9% flat and without trees, the rest requires a minimal of local council rates to provide roads on.

this has nothign todo with what i typed , but you know that, you deleted all those bits.

you only feel free when the poor are removed from the roads, which is nice, im glad you could admit to that.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:06 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:I don't think we are dancing around the issues at all. You are on the receiving end, someone else is on the paying end, you like it more than they.


SM,

I see that you have returned to a binary model. This is the old pay/receive, tax/spend dualism argument that we debate so much on the forums.


;) Funny how that works, once we pre-deploy the binary filters (rich-poor, left-right, liberal-conservative, mean-kind) the data always seems to fall neatly into the "proper" places.

manolo wrote:However, your quote above is a 'binary' simplification of the issue. It is not proven that people don't always dislike paying taxes, despite what conservatives almost invariably tell us. There is a broader motive in living in a country with decent public services, a motive that applies beyond the mean considerations of the 'me' psychology.

I would suggest a look at Acts 20:35 for further enlightenment.

Alex.


To date, no one has bothered to answer my above questions of whether my friends/co-workers who profess left, and practice right are righties or lefties. Or my earlier question of whether Mother Teresa lived a life in accordance with her own self-interests. I think she did.

As our previous thread on whether Hilter was a rightie or a leftie showed, the definitions are local, temporal, and subjective.

In theory, it is simple, the golden rule, the Code of Hammurabi, the Ten Commandments, the Four Pillars of Islam, the Eightfold Path, etc. In practice, there are hundreds of thousands of pages of legislation and rules in the IRS Code and the Code of Federal regulations alone.

Since the ideals exist only in our minds, it is not surprising when others don't measure up to our standards. "Other people" can always do more to make the world a better place, according to "my" standards. Fascinating how humans can apply ideology or rationalize. Damn tough, getting past that sense of me.

Who exactly is it who wishes to live in "a country with decent public services?" And why? Cause it is in their self-interest? And who gets to define "decent?" Is it in our self-interests to be caring and compassionate?

Why did so many of my European friends and co-workers flip when they experienced the dark side of paying at the point of service? I'll bet they flip back when they go home.

I'm still betting on humans acting very similarly, and in their own self-interest, regardless of what they profess. Who gets to define true Christian, liberal, conservative, etc?

The discussions are fun, but expecting agreement, when so many variables are in play, and the definitions defy consensus, seems to be vanity.

Alex, I'll never consider you to be a true leftie, until you crate some of those sportbikes and ship em to the underprivileged me! Your self-interest of having is going to fight your self-interest of winning my approval. Do the "right" thing! :D

good discussion. cheers mate
Last edited by Simple Minded on Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:16 pm

noddy wrote:i think you are dabbling in a most absurd bit of binary absolutism gibberish.

my country is 99.9% flat and without trees, the rest requires a minimal of local council rates to provide roads on.

this has nothign todo with what i typed , but you know that, you deleted all those bits.

you only feel free when the poor are removed from the roads, which is nice, im glad you could admit to that.


I'm still hoping this discussion gets down to the high school freshman level of "Oh Yeah! Well nobody is free until everyone is free from pain, and hunger and disease!"

Which will make the case that caged farm animals are more free than wild animals.

In my next life, I want to be a domestic house cat. Not sure, why the universe is punishing me this time around. :?

Don't forget those first world Harley riders who claim they are not free cause someone is making them wear helmets.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:57 pm

noddy wrote:i think that is absolute nonsense, gibberish even.

it may have made the world healther (debatable) it may have made it safer (highly debatable) it most certainly has not made the world more free or life easier for the poor, its exactly the opposite,see parodites rant about freedom picking on poor that follows it :roll:

you cant just use any old home made vehicle like eastern europe or much of asia, you must have purchased a brand new one from a government approved supplier, then paid road taxes and licenses for yourself and the car, and they will stop you and confiscated the car if it doesnt meet the visual approval of a cynical policeman.

the roads themselves are littered with speed cameras and police bus's which will stop you and charge you for drink/drug driving until you give them blood samples to PROVE your not (*)

a system by the scared puritan middle class for the scared purtian middle class and the poor can rot in hell, its many things, its not free, its as anti poor as you could possibly make it, i know because im poor and maintaining a middle class approved car is one of the big struggles in my weekly existance.


(*) a keener observer might note that this is guilty until proven innocent, the opposite of free, the opposite of traditional good law, i wouldnt expect that to bother anyone, because it doesnt in the real world, doubleplusgood.


Wouldn't your example be more of a case of being more poorly ordered than one of lessened freedom?

Those taxes and regulations should cut down on spontaneity and disorder- I don't know about Australia but American roads are pretty safe compared to some of your "strap yourself in/white knuckle driving" you hear about in India or Russia or seen in Italy.

While I agree that so many of the additional regulations are barely disguised class warfare- so much of what makes it bad is a lack of nerve to actually rule and regulate, which ends up being up to caprices of the more affluent.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:31 am

question any of government, immediately respond to nonsense about pure anarchy, makes for great conversations.

anyway.

in my area the poor get 2 buses in the morning and 2 in the evening, both aimed at getting them to/from low paid service industry jobs which leave them unable to afford a car or permanent housing.

this is subsidised, it has to be, you wouldnt get cleaners and shopkeepers in the slick parts of town otherwise.

is that freedom ?

Wouldn't your example be more of a case of being more poorly ordered than one of lessened freedom?


Those taxes and regulations should cut down on spontaneity and disorder- I don't know about Australia but Americanq roads are pretty safe compared to some of your "strap yourself in/white knuckle driving" you hear about in India or Russia or seen in Italy.

While I agree that so many of the additional regulations are barely disguised class warfare- so much of what makes it bad is a lack of nerve to actually rule and regulate, which ends up being up to caprices of the more affluent.


safer is safer, more organised is more organised, free is free.

its nicer when words actually mean something so you can use them against it each other as reference points, once people start saying that free is when its safer and more organised we have lost a reference point

i seem to remember a book about controlling ideologies and losing reference points being a big part of the system.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:44 am

Simple Minded wrote:
Alex, I'll never consider you to be a true leftie, until you crate some of those sportbikes and ship em to the underprivileged me! Your self-interest of having is going to fight your self-interest of winning my approval. Do the "right" thing! :D

good discussion. cheers mate


SM,

Sorry to push your buttons, but this is more of the same. Conservatives (I don't know if you are one) generally see the world in terms of self interest. This view is affected by what you have called a "filter".

Now, I don't blame a conservative for being drawn to a certain 'filtered' view of the world, and it seems almost impossible for them to get beyond it. However, there are others who don't see the world that way. Plenty of people have a decent income, good living standard (including various possessions) and also pay their taxes, give to charity, help others and don't vote conservative.

This is not an all or nothing thing, and does not have to be reduced in that way.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:48 am

noddy wrote:my country is 99.9% flat and without trees, the rest requires a minimal of local council rates to provide roads on.


nod,

Do you not have a national road network? How do people get around?

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:46 am

Simple Minded wrote:

I'm still hoping this discussion gets down to the high school freshman level of "Oh Yeah! Well nobody is free until everyone is free from pain, and hunger and disease!"


isnt that where it started ? im confused now.

Simple Minded wrote:

Which will make the case that caged farm animals are more free than wild animals.


arent they ? im confused now.

Simple Minded wrote:

In my next life, I want to be a domestic house cat. Not sure, why the universe is punishing me this time around. :?


you spend all day licking yourself aleady dont you ? im confused now.

Simple Minded wrote:
Don't forget those first world Harley riders who claim they are not free cause someone is making them wear helmets.


lucky only accountants and lawyers ride harleys, or i might have some sympathy for *them*
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:49 am

manolo wrote:
noddy wrote:my country is 99.9% flat and without trees, the rest requires a minimal of local council rates to provide roads on.


nod,

Do you not have a national road network? How do people get around?

Alex.


its been alot better since we followed the japanese governments road strategy.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:43 pm

noddy
:lol:

I can not hide from your omnipresence. I am elevating you from "hero" status to "god." Little g.

Please don't abuse my faith or devotion. :)
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:20 pm

manolo wrote:
SM,

Sorry to push your buttons, but this is more of the same. Conservatives (I don't know if you are one) generally see the world in terms of self interest. This view is affected by what you have called a "filter".

Now, I don't blame a conservative for being drawn to a certain 'filtered' view of the world, and it seems almost impossible for them to get beyond it. However, there are others who don't see the world that way. Plenty of people have a decent income, good living standard (including various possessions) and also pay their taxes, give to charity, help others and don't vote conservative.

This is not an all or nothing thing, and does not have to be reduced in that way.

Alex.


alex,

You always make me smile. And you always interpret whatever I post in ways I can't even imagine, and read intent into my post that I can't even imagine. Even to the point of I often think "He does not read a single word I write, why respond?" People, I guess we are like that. No need to apologize, why you assumed you prompted offense in me, also baffles me. Examine thy own filters.

IMSMO, the words conservative and liberal seem to have lost all meaning. But then again, classifying people as herds seems meaningless also. I know I was raised on another planet, and I know in political discussions, the individual is too small to count. Voting blocks are where the power is won or lost.

To me, it is pretty "simple." Get past morality/intent and enter into a pure accounting mode for a minute. Does program X help more people than it hurts? How to evaluate? If one can't do the evaluation, don't pitch it as beneficial. Pitch it as I want to do this. If 50%+1 agree, law of the land. For the 50%-1 who disagree, tough luck, majority rules. Organize, form a PAC, donate to the right politicians, and tomorrow your gang may be in the majority and you can reverse it, for now, suck it up.

Back to morality/intent. The private sector is the voluntary sector, the public sector is the coercive sector. Govt has no money, it takes from Peter to pay Paul.

Me personally: I (Peter) walk down the street a panhandler (Paul) asks me for money. I give him some money with two intents, to help him, and it makes me feel good. So am I selfishly motivated or not? I really don't care how that call is made, but it is fun to discuss and project.

Next day, I encounter another panhandler, this time I reach into my pocket, I pull out a gun and I take money from bystanders to give to Paul. I helped Paul, but I hurt others. For some reason, that does not make me feel good at all. Damn, I thought playing Robin Hood would be more fun. Why are those whom I took money from upset? Don't they enjoy being generous? Those selfish bastards! Don't they know I am a better person than they?

When govts engage in deficit spending, it is simply voting generations stealing from future generations. I can't morally condone that.

When politician Z claims the program produces free benefits he is lying. That simple. When the politician tells Fred, that Fred will not pay, but industry will pay, he is also lying. Fred and everyone who buys from that industry will pay more. Fred's desire for free forces the little old lady and the single mom down the street, to pay more for their needs. The politician's sales pitch is preying upon the stupidity of the populace to advance his ideology.

When the politician presents the plan benefits, but not the plan's costs, hidden costs, perverse incentives, and unintended consequences, they are being deceitful. But hey, the mob wants magic, not detailed analysis.

Anyway, that is me in a nutshell, I don't possess the mental agility to play Robin Hood and not be cognizant of those whom I am hurting. That is why I evaluate the "good intention" of a person on their own personal, voluntary, charitable actions and giving rather than on their preaching, or upon their organizing the bigger, more powerful gang to force others to do the "right" thing. "Talk is cheap" and "Actions speak louder than words." and all that.

Back to important stuff. Don't send me one of those crappy Kawasakis, I want the R1. Not that I am being "selfish," but I know my happiness is important to you! :D

cheers mate! :D
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:03 am

noddy wrote:safer is safer, more organised is more organised, free is free.

its nicer when words actually mean something so you can use them against it each other as reference points, once people start saying that free is when its safer and more organised we have lost a reference point

i seem to remember a book about controlling ideologies and losing reference points being a big part of the system.


Great! Free means free, which is why everyone, save maybe those in Myanmar, will swear up and down that they are the most free people in the world already. Freedom is so abundant, the US has been exporting it for a decade.

A word is only as good as its use in context or its use with very concrete examples.

The debasement of the word, as that author better points out in his Politics and the English language and Books vs Cigarettes, happens when we are stuck negotiating a way to accommodate every individual whim.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:39 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Great! Free means free, which is why everyone, save maybe those in Myanmar, will swear up and down that they are the most free people in the world already. Freedom is so abundant, the US has been exporting it for a decade.

A word is only as good as its use in context or its use with very concrete examples.


all true - sometimes the blur between discussing what is versus what i want versus what should be makes for dissonance.

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:The debasement of the word, as that author better points out in his Politics and the English language and Books vs Cigarettes, happens when we are stuck negotiating a way to accommodate every individual whim.


we (as a society) certainly spent alot of time arguing about certain inconsequential freedoms, like gay marriage, i spose that means distraction by whim.
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:29 am

noddy wrote:we (as a society) certainly spent alot of time arguing about certain inconsequential freedoms, like gay marriage...


nod,

You express conservative ideology very clearly.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:31 am

noddy wrote:
...its been alot better since we followed the japanese governments road strategy.



nod,

I see that you are unable to answer my question.

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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:22 pm

manolo wrote:
noddy wrote:we (as a society) certainly spent alot of time arguing about certain inconsequential freedoms, like gay marriage...


nod,

You express conservative ideology very clearly.

Alex.


today i learned that conservatives dont believe in marriage.

quite shocking really, i thought they did.
noddy
 
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Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:28 pm

manolo wrote:
noddy wrote:
...its been alot better since we followed the japanese governments road strategy.



nod,

I see that you are unable to answer my question.

Alex.


most of us have teams of bangladeshi kids who carry us around on litters - the uppity little bastards have been asking for increased wages and time off lately, so we will hopefully increase immigration soon and make sure we have plenty of fresh desperation to exploit for this purpose.
noddy
 
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