Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby manolo » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:40 am

Folks,

“Using the concept of the fall of man, of man as an instinctual savage requiring total leadership and repeated blood letting, a number of elitist, racist and totalitarian dreamers and publicists have offered an alternative statement of the human condition.”

George Steiner.

The above is from the preface of 'Gobineau: selected political writings' and begins a selection of writings from a man widely known as “The father of racism”.

In my view it is hard to deny that the political Right tend to Gobineau's “assertions of human inequality and to denials of common humanity” (p13) and I am interested in looking at responses both in agreement with Gobineau's philosophy on this subject and in rebuttal of the same. Hopefully there are wiser heads than mine to contribute to such a discussion.

Alex.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby noddy » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:25 pm

you might find a topic that reads as 'im prettty genuflecting awesome and you lot are cockheads, please discuss' has a limited audience.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:56 pm

noddy wrote:you might find a topic that reads as 'im prettty genuflecting awesome and you lot are cockheads, please discuss' has a limited audience.


true.

'We're pretty genuflecting awesome and they are cockheads, please discuss' has a much broader appeal.

double stereotyping vs. single stereotyping..... no brainer. ;) ;)
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:10 pm

on the other hand,

"I'm a not steaming pile, you guys are awesome, what are you going to do to make my life better and if it does not satisfy every whim I have, I'm gonna call all y'all nasty names" has very broad appeal.

some what timeless, even.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby noddy » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:12 pm

Simple Minded wrote:
noddy wrote:you might find a topic that reads as 'im prettty genuflecting awesome and you lot are cockheads, please discuss' has a limited audience.


true.

'We're pretty genuflecting awesome and they are cockheads, please discuss' has a much broader appeal.

double stereotyping vs. single stereotyping..... no brainer. ;) ;)


yeh, mistaken use of us and them. tut tut.

probably poor instincts with an elitist lack of awareness for the human condition.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:23 pm

noddy wrote:
yeh, mistaken use of us and them. tut tut.

probably poor instincts with an elitist lack of awareness for the human condition.


exactly why I try to avoid using big words when ever possible. limits my appealationiveness.... :P
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Parodite » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:43 pm

manolo wrote:In my view it is hard to deny that the political Right tend to Gobineau's “assertions of human inequality and to denials of common humanity” (p13) and I am interested in looking at responses both in agreement with Gobineau's philosophy on this subject and in rebuttal of the same.


Well, me doeth think that we are all both selfish and social. Emphasis on the selfish aspect as in personal responsibility and self-reliance, to not lean or count on others is where rightwing starts. Leftwing with the emphasis on social responsibility, solidarity, care for the weak. Extreme left and extreme right is where communism and fascism meet. Not an originale one I know.

Just wondered if people with more empathic social awareness have more active mirror neurons and therefor on average vote more leftwing. Rightwingers seem to be bit more stiffy robotic seeing less colors. SM will punish me now for stereotyping. :P
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:17 am

Parodite wrote:
manolo wrote:In my view it is hard to deny that the political Right tend to Gobineau's “assertions of human inequality and to denials of common humanity” (p13) and I am interested in looking at responses both in agreement with Gobineau's philosophy on this subject and in rebuttal of the same.


Well, me doeth think that we are all both selfish and social. Emphasis on the selfish aspect as in personal responsibility and self-reliance, to not lean or count on others is where rightwing starts. Leftwing with the emphasis on social responsibility, solidarity, care for the weak. Extreme left and extreme right is where communism and fascism meet. Not an originale one I know.

Just wondered if people with more empathic social awareness have more active mirror neurons and therefor on average vote more leftwing. Rightwingers seem to be bit more stiffy robotic seeing less colors. SM will punish me now for stereotyping. :P


Typical stereotyper. I never punish. Warm's me heart to see you self punish though. ;) ;)

So does that make you a right winger or a left winger? I don't recall "us" ever defining either term.

I still eagerly anticipate definitions. As I recall, only Endo has ventured any definitions to date.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Parodite » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:35 am

Simple Minded wrote:Typical stereotyper. I never punish. Warm's me heart to see you self punish though. ;) ;)

So does that make you a right winger or a left winger? I don't recall "us" ever defining either term.

I still eagerly anticipate definitions. As I recall, only Endo has ventured any definitions to date.


Im a social libertarian, be warned; it isn't a stereotype yet, matter of time. ;)

It's just that my probably biased pattern recognition system sees leftwingers with more empathic powers while they make a financial mess and rightwingers who create jobs for leftwingers.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:59 am

Parodite wrote:
Im a social libertarian, be warned; it isn't a stereotype yet, matter of time. ;)

It's just that my probably biased pattern recognition system sees leftwingers with more empathic powers while they make a financial mess and rightwingers who create jobs for leftwingers.


fair enough. Obviously, the definitions are relative, subjective, and localized.

In your opinion, the person who donates a higher percentage of their income to charity is a right winger, or a left winger?

Mother Teresa, right winger or left winger?

and the old favorite, Hitler, right winger or left winger?
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Mr. Perfect » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:56 am

A major poll was released a few weeks ago, detailing the issues voters care about.

This was not even on the list.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby noddy » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:31 am

It's just that my probably biased pattern recognition system sees leftwingers with more empathic powers while they make a financial mess and rightwingers who create jobs for leftwingers.


your pattern recognition seems completely broken, not biased, it appearss configured to listen to the words rather than watch for the outcomes

any decent charity gives out about 80% of the donations as payments, you can easily test how corrupt things are by testing them against that figure.

most modern western governments allocate about 1/3 the tax intake to social security and only about 1/3 of that actually turns into money in the hands of the poor.

the 90% goes on paying themselves upper middle class wages and purchasing votes with pork barrel schemes.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby manolo » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:16 am

Folks,

Having reached page 45, I find Gobineau writing, "....all societies perish because they are sinful." In the context of his preceding thought I take this to mean that Gobineau is referring to the fall, in that all societies do inevitably perish in the fallen world. Gobineau was a serious Christian and his religion reflects his politics (and vice versa) just as we find in many committed Christians today.

Alex.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby kmich » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:50 pm

manolo wrote:Folks,

Having reached page 45, I find Gobineau writing, "....all societies perish because they are sinful." In the context of his preceding thought I take this to mean that Gobineau is referring to the fall, in that all societies do inevitably perish in the fallen world. Gobineau was a serious Christian and his religion reflects his politics (and vice versa) just as we find in many committed Christians today.

Alex.

All societies perish in the same way all humans die and fruit rots. One may find specific reasons why an individual society died in the relevant historical events, but to propose some universal process is totally unfounded any more than the instantiation of a "universal" society.

I very much consider myself a "committed Christian," but determining the divine purpose in the unfolding of human history is way above my pay grade.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:13 am

I've read a lot of the rightism milieu, and I cannot see how Gobineau is really such an influence on the right, outside of German fascism, and even there he is overstated.

Furthermore, the 'righties' on this board tend to fall into a band of general Christian/Anglosphere rightwing varieties- I don't think anyone's sentiments lay within the taxa of aristocratic anti-capitalists, anti-industrialists or scientific racists.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:26 am

We can't let that get in the way of a good tar and feathering.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Parodite » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:26 pm

noddy wrote:
It's just that my probably biased pattern recognition system sees leftwingers with more empathic powers while they make a financial mess and rightwingers who create jobs for leftwingers.


your pattern recognition seems completely broken, not biased, it appearss configured to listen to the words rather than watch for the outcomes.


I was primarly talking about personality traits of leftwinger and rightwingers, irrespective of outcomes.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby manolo » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:31 am

kmich wrote:
manolo wrote:Folks,

Having reached page 45, I find Gobineau writing, "....all societies perish because they are sinful." In the context of his preceding thought I take this to mean that Gobineau is referring to the fall, in that all societies do inevitably perish in the fallen world. Gobineau was a serious Christian and his religion reflects his politics (and vice versa) just as we find in many committed Christians today.

Alex.

All societies perish in the same way all humans die and fruit rots.


kmich,

Yes, I think this is what Gobineau is talking about.

"We live in a fallen world. As a result of Adam's sin, the world has to contend with sickness, sorrow, evil and death."

http://www.lwbc.co.uk/Genesis/The%20fallen%20world.htm

I'll have to read deeper into Gobineau to see how successfully he links his racism with his Christianity. For now I think it is reasonable to assume that Gobineau will not expect sickness, sorrow, evil and death in the destination of the faithful.

Back soon.

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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:22 am

manolo wrote:
kmich wrote:
manolo wrote:Folks,

Having reached page 45, I find Gobineau writing, "....all societies perish because they are sinful." In the context of his preceding thought I take this to mean that Gobineau is referring to the fall, in that all societies do inevitably perish in the fallen world. Gobineau was a serious Christian and his religion reflects his politics (and vice versa) just as we find in many committed Christians today.

Alex.

All societies perish in the same way all humans die and fruit rots.


kmich,

Yes, I think this is what Gobineau is talking about.

"We live in a fallen world. As a result of Adam's sin, the world has to contend with sickness, sorrow, evil and death."

http://www.lwbc.co.uk/Genesis/The%20fallen%20world.htm

I'll have to read deeper into Gobineau to see how successfully he links his racism with his Christianity. For now I think it is reasonable to assume that Gobineau will not expect sickness, sorrow, evil and death in the destination of the faithful.

Back soon.

Alex.


What is your criteria to judge his success or failure?
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Torchwood » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:57 am

This debate is as old as Pelagius v Augustine.

Augustine and Gobineau got it half right, we do have original sin, from our violent mammalian ancestry, but the miserable buggers forgot that from the same source we also have original virtue. Imagine if the dominant intelligent species which evolved had no capacity for compassion. Well, despite everything, that did not happen.

The left used to be Pelagian (man is the blank slate on which society writes its beautiful message ... forward to full Communism, comrades!) but now it has turned apocalyptic as well. Runaway climate change will kill us, given what we done to the planet, it is no more than we deserve... while the right is in Pollyana denial.

It's a Judeo Christian thing. We just love apocalypses, as punishment for our sins.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby noddy » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:22 pm

well, we are all going to die, and quite horribly at that for many of us.. full on apocolyptic destruction, months of deterioration and pain.

its considered healthy to completely and utterly avoid the entire thought of it and nice folks will scold you if you remind them of it.

some struggle with that level of denial so it bubbles out in a tourettes like manner, as politics.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Parodite » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:45 am

noddy wrote:well, we are all going to die, and quite horribly at that for many of us.. full on apocolyptic destruction, months of deterioration and pain.

its considered healthy to completely and utterly avoid the entire thought of it and nice folks will scold you if you remind them of it.

some struggle with that level of denial so it bubbles out in a tourettes like manner, as politics.


Dying is likely to be terrible but it makes death a great solution. :P
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Simple Minded » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:56 pm

Parodite wrote:
noddy wrote:well, we are all going to die, and quite horribly at that for many of us.. full on apocolyptic destruction, months of deterioration and pain.

its considered healthy to completely and utterly avoid the entire thought of it and nice folks will scold you if you remind them of it.

some struggle with that level of denial so it bubbles out in a tourettes like manner, as politics.


Dying is likely to be terrible but it makes death a great solution. :P


Luckily, in the long run, "we" are all solutions! :D
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Typhoon » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:16 pm

Torchwood wrote:This debate is as old as Pelagius v Augustine.

Augustine and Gobineau got it half right, we do have original sin, from our violent mammalian ancestry, but the miserable buggers forgot that from the same source we also have original virtue. Imagine if the dominant intelligent species which evolved had no capacity for compassion. Well, despite everything, that did not happen.

The left used to be Pelagian (man is the blank slate on which society writes its beautiful message ... forward to full Communism, comrades!) but now it has turned apocalyptic as well. Runaway climate change will kill us, given what we done to the planet, it is no more than we deserve... while the right is in Pollyana denial.

It's a Judeo Christian thing. We just love apocalypses, as punishment for our sins.


Amen.
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Re: Rightism, apocalypse and Gobineau.

Postby Parodite » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:59 am

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