Culture

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Simple Minded

Re: Culture

Post by Simple Minded »

What would Rumi say about these sanctimonious, self-righteous crusaders who are offended on his behalf?

WWRS?
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Culture

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Simple Minded wrote:.

What would Rumi say about these sanctimonious, self-righteous crusaders who are offended on his behalf ?

WWRS ?


.

Excellent question, excellent observation.

Yes, what would Rumi say to all this fuss


0hch8ZEqtk0


People who talk about Rumi being white or not, blue or brown eye, did not understand Rumi

.
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Re: Culture

Post by noddy »

Nawa
July 01, 2016 11:14 AM
Reply
Rumi was not PERSIAN either. He was from Balkh, Afghanistan. Your title is perpetuating the problem of misidentify and the cultural theft of Afghan history and culture.
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Re: Culture

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

noddy wrote:
Nawa
July 01, 2016 11:14 AM
Reply
Rumi was not PERSIAN either. He was from Balkh, Afghanistan. Your title is perpetuating the problem of misidentify and the cultural theft of Afghan history and culture.

WiKi : IRAN


Greatesiranmap.gif
Greatesiranmap.gif (95.9 KiB) Viewed 713 times

noddy, present Afghanistan is part of "Greater Khorasan" province of Persia.

Khorasan (Middle Persian: Khorasanpahlavi.png, Persian: خراسان‎‎ Xorāsān/Xorâsân About this sound listen (help·info)) is a historical region[1] lying in the northeast of Persia. "In pre-Islamic and early Islamic times, the term "Khurassan" frequently had a much wider denotation, covering also parts of Central Asia and Afghanistan; early Islamic usage often regarded everywhere east of western Persia, so-called Djibal or what was subsequently termed 'Irak 'Adjami, as being included in a vast and ill-defined region of Khurasan, which might even extend to the Indus Valley and Sind."

Khorasan in its proper sense comprised principally the cities of Balkh and Herat (now in Afghanistan), Mashhad and Nishapur (now in northeastern Iran), Merv and Nisa (now in southern Turkmenistan), and Bukhara and Samarkand (now in Uzbekistan).

Some believe that at certain times Khorasan covered a wider area, which included parts of Transoxiana, Soghdiana, Sistan, and extended to the boundaries of the Indian subcontinent. When the Arabs first arrived to the southern Hindu Kush to defeat the Zunbils, they recognized it as al-Hind (Sind), owing to the prevalence of Buddhists and Hindus (non-Zoroastrians) due to its cultural connection with Greater India. Sources from the 14th to the 16th century report that areas in the south of the Hindu Kush mountain range (Zamindawar, Balochistan, and Kabulistan) formed a frontier between Khorasan and Hindustan.


.

Big part of central Asia and all Caucasus (including Georgia, Armenia, Shirvan U& Arran (today called Azerbaijan)) are part of Persia, same with part of Mesopotamia and Asia minor

All giants of literature, philosophy of that space (and of history), were Persian of within Persia, Persian speaking and culture and civilization.

And, FYI, Afghani language Dari is Farsi (Iranian) and Pashtoon Persian too.

But .. all this beside the point

Rumi is over all this .. IMVHO, humanity has not seen anything like him, the way things go, does not look it will (things going opposit direction)

.
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Re: Culture

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

azari, why do you not hold out hope for another Rumi?
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Re: Culture

Post by Typhoon »

The Philosophy section is not the place to debate Greater Whateverstan or the racial background of Rumi.

Rumi, whatever his origins, wrote mainly in Persian, which was his native language, along with Greek, Arabic, and Turkish, and lived in a then centre of Persian culture, the region of Balkh.

Persian, fwiw, is part of the ancient Indo-European group of languages and along with Sanskrit and Lithuanian is one of the oldest languages that still exist today.

Borders and cultures have changed over time.

What remains, fortunately, is Rumi's contribution to civilization.
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Re: Culture

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:.

azari, why do you not hold out hope for another Rumi ?

.

I am

Look, all those European philosophers, literature writers, Goether, Shiller, Lessing, Plato, Hegel .. non wrote about "Good & Evil" .. morality did not come into picture .. they write about philosophy as if it were mathematic, all about "logic".

That is why west arrived @ a dead-end.

What does West do in that emergency ? Artificial intelligence .. robot .. one more step AWAY from RUMI

.
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Re: Culture

Post by noddy »

you seem to be playing the "poor people have more soul" card, as favoured by stoner uni students who couldnt get jobs with their useless arts degrees.
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Re: Culture

Post by Typhoon »

noddy wrote:you seem to be playing the "poor people have more soul" card, as favoured by stoner uni students who couldnt get jobs with their useless arts degrees.
If Azari has listed the current mob of philosophical wankers in vogue on campuses, including, but not limited to, such spunk artists as Foucault, Derrida, and Lacan, then I would be inclined to agree.
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Re: Culture

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:.

azari, why do you not hold out hope for another Rumi ?

.

I am

Look, all those European philosophers, literature writers, Goether, Shiller, Lessing, Plato, Hegel .. non wrote about "Good & Evil" .. morality did not come into picture .. they write about philosophy as if it were mathematic, all about "logic".

That is why west arrived @ a dead-end.

What does West do in that emergency ? Artificial intelligence .. robot .. one more step AWAY from RUMI

.
Logic has it's place. After all, it is a bit rich that you're complaining

on a forum that runs on software developed in the West,
on the internet whose hardware and software was developed in the West,
on a computer whose technology was developed in the West,
all of which are applications of electromagnetic theory and quantum theory,
both of were developed . . . in the West

For me, the philosophy of the Stoics is sufficient.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Simple Minded

Re: Culture

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
For me, the philosophy of the Stoics is sufficient.
Amen.

it does seem to provide a workable ideology for most of life quite well. But it removes a lot of excuses, and I think it requires a level of personal responsibility that make many people uncomfortable.

"You offended me." vs. "Why did I choose to be offended?"

"Between stimulus and response, man has the ability to choose." Viktor Frankl
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Re: Culture

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:.

azari, why do you not hold out hope for another Rumi ?

.

I am

Look, all those European philosophers, literature writers, Goether, Shiller, Lessing, Plato, Hegel .. non wrote about "Good & Evil" .. morality did not come into picture .. they write about philosophy as if it were mathematic, all about "logic".

That is why west arrived @ a dead-end.

What does West do in that emergency ? Artificial intelligence .. robot .. one more step AWAY from RUMI

.

Logic has it's place. After all, it is a bit rich that you're complaining

on a forum that runs on software developed in the West,
on the internet whose hardware and software was developed in the West,
on a computer whose technology was developed in the West,
all of which are applications of electromagnetic theory and quantum theory,
both of were developed . . . in the West

For me, the philosophy of the Stoics, is sufficient.

.

CS , true, all the above you mention developed in west (though, those scientist developing all that, many Indian, Chinese, Iranian, Taiwanese, Japanese).

As if Pomegranates would say you Japanese engineers have no right to express your views because you using Algebra or Algorithm (invented by Pomegranates).

and, all this beyond the point of this thread

With all due respect, this CUTURE thread and no math thread

Point I was trying to make is, heart of any civilization, of any culture, are the PHILOSOPHERS of that civilization and Culture .. the Philosophers are the ones who define a society .. and .. in Western philosophy there is no talk of "good" and "evil" .. I debated this with western experts and they ridiculed "Morality" saying "morality" does not exist, basically saying this a "law of nature", look in jungle with the Boa eats the pregnant bait, world, they say, and Western philosophers say this too, is all about "Logic" (which is a part of Mathematics).

Is said, Rumi is the most popular in America now .. Rumi nothing to do neither with Logic nor mathematics.

What does it mean ?

.
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Re: Culture

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Simple Minded wrote: "Between stimulus and response, man has the ability to choose." Viktor Frankl
Is that why he built Franklstein's monster? 'Cause he had a choice?

Image
Simple Minded

Re: Culture

Post by Simple Minded »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: "Between stimulus and response, man has the ability to choose." Viktor Frankl
Is that why he built Franklstein's monster? 'Cause he had a choice?

Image
Yes, and also he might have been gay, lonely, or just tired of trying to splain things to people on the internet who would not listen. Rumor has it his monster was an excellent listener....
Simple Minded

Re: Culture

Post by Simple Minded »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
What does it mean ?

.
I'm thinking ti means Rumi was not into group identifying others nor intellectual pecker measuring...
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Re: Culture

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Simple Minded wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: "Between stimulus and response, man has the ability to choose." Viktor Frankl
Is that why he built Franklstein's monster? 'Cause he had a choice?

Image
Yes, and also he might have been gay, lonely, or just tired of trying to splain things to people on the internet who would not listen. Rumor has it his monster was an excellent listener....
did he wake up on the wrong side of the bed [the wrong side of history :? ?] too? ;)
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Re: Culture

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:.

azari, why do you not hold out hope for another Rumi ?

.

I am

Look, all those European philosophers, literature writers, Goether, Shiller, Lessing, Plato, Hegel .. non wrote about "Good & Evil" .. morality did not come into picture .. they write about philosophy as if it were mathematic, all about "logic".

That is why west arrived @ a dead-end.

What does West do in that emergency ? Artificial intelligence .. robot .. one more step AWAY from RUMI

.

Logic has it's place. After all, it is a bit rich that you're complaining

on a forum that runs on software developed in the West,
on the internet whose hardware and software was developed in the West,
on a computer whose technology was developed in the West,
all of which are applications of electromagnetic theory and quantum theory,
both of were developed . . . in the West

For me, the philosophy of the Stoics, is sufficient.

.

CS , true, all the above you mention developed in west (though, those scientist developing all that, many Indian, Chinese, Iranian, Taiwanese, Japanese).
I am using the term "the West" as a concept, not a geographical location or national identity.
After all, science is essentially international, and it is only through lack of the historical sense that national qualities have been attributed to it.

~ Marie Curie
Heracleum Persicum wrote: As if Pomegranates would say you Japanese engineers have no right to express your views because you using Algebra or Algorithm (invented by Pomegranates).
Past glories. The world has moved on since 825 A.D. The time for the ME to catch up is long long overdue.
Heracleum Persicum wrote: With all due respect, this CUTURE thread and no math thread

Point I was trying to make is, heart of any civilization, of any culture, are the PHILOSOPHERS of that civilization and Culture .. the Philosophers are the ones who define a society .. and .. in Western philosophy there is no talk of "good" and "evil" .. I debated this with western experts and they ridiculed "Morality" saying "morality" does not exist, basically saying this a "law of nature", look in jungle with the Boa eats the pregnant bait, world, they say, and Western philosophers say this too, is all about "Logic" (which is a part of Mathematics).
The concept of good and evil and how to deal with it has been central to much of Western philosophy.
Heracleum Persicum wrote: Is said, Rumi is the most popular in America now .. Rumi nothing to do neither with Logic nor mathematics.

What does it mean ?

.
It means it is a good thing, that some people in the US are aware of a great poet.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Simple Minded

Re: Culture

Post by Simple Minded »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: "Between stimulus and response, man has the ability to choose." Viktor Frankl
Is that why he built Franklstein's monster? 'Cause he had a choice?

Image
Yes, and also he might have been gay, lonely, or just tired of trying to splain things to people on the internet who would not listen. Rumor has it his monster was an excellent listener....
did he wake up on the wrong side of the bed [the wrong side of history :? ?] too? ;)
It has been quite a long while since I read Frankl, but, as I recall, he woke up on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean. ;)
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Re: Culture

Post by Typhoon »

May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Simple Minded

Re: Culture

Post by Simple Minded »

Excellent article Typhoon. Thanks for posting. White privilege and compassion ain't what it used to be! Who do "we" blame for that?

A few years ago, I was informed by my 30-ish niece, that using the term "oriental" was racist, but the term "Asian" was understanding, compassionate, and enlightened.

Typhoon, a question, Do all orientals know the term oriental is racist? Or just the enlightened ones? ;)

Beg-packing?, Voluntourism?, identitarian? I can't keep up with the Neo-post hipster language. Today I learned there is a place called the "global south." Probably south of the theMason-Dixon line, I assume....

Fascinating to watch the group identity slaves wallow in their self-loathing, and their need for protection projection reflection. :o

Whoa! I might be turning........

"Let them eat fish-cake!"
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Re: Culture

Post by Typhoon »

Simple Minded wrote:
Excellent article Typhoon. Thanks for posting. White privilege and compassion ain't what it used to be! Who do "we" blame for that?

A few years ago, I was informed by my 30-ish niece, that using the term "oriental" was racist, but the term "Asian" was understanding, compassionate, and enlightened.

Typhoon, a question, Do all orientals know the term oriental is racist? Or just the enlightened ones? ;)

. . .
Well, given that The Orient starts east of the Bosphorus and ends around the International Date Line, thereby including several billion people, it's a bit hard to generalize.

However, I have heard well educated Japanese speaking English occasionally use the term "Oriental" unaware of its current pejorative status in the West.
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Re: Culture

Post by noddy »

it seems to be a phenomenon of middle aged men whos wives have stopped listening to them so they inflict their prejudices masquerading as knowledge on anyone else in earshot.

ive heard many different versions of this - from chinese to indians and several flavours of european, all who believe they have some deep cultural insight into the true nature of each countries people.

orientalism type gibberish is usually more of a mirror into the person having the opinion than the thing being opined upon.
ultracrepidarian
Simple Minded

Re: Culture

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Excellent article Typhoon. Thanks for posting. White privilege and compassion ain't what it used to be! Who do "we" blame for that?

A few years ago, I was informed by my 30-ish niece, that using the term "oriental" was racist, but the term "Asian" was understanding, compassionate, and enlightened.

Typhoon, a question, Do all orientals know the term oriental is racist? Or just the enlightened ones? ;)

. . .
Well, given that The Orient starts east of the Bosphorus and ends around the International Date Line, thereby including several billion people, it's a bit hard to generalize.

However, I have heard well educated Japanese speaking English occasionally use the term "Oriental" unaware of its current pejorative status in the West.
Way back when... when it was prophesied that your tribe's culture was taking over the world, when Bruce Lee and David Carradine were both Oriental, and the song "I think I'm turning Japanese" was popular.... Conversations discussing the prophesy with a friend who was from Japan (so he claims, he could have been Chinese or Korean...) often were summarized by him saying "You stupid Occidentals! Replacing your culture will be easy!" :P

Luckily, neither of us were sophisticated enough back then to realize that was "Racist!" ;)

Insensitivity is underrated....
Last edited by Simple Minded on Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simple Minded

Re: Culture

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:it seems to be a phenomenon of middle aged men whos wives have stopped listening to them so they inflict their prejudices masquerading as knowledge on anyone else in earshot.

ive heard many different versions of this - from chinese to indians and several flavours of european, all who believe they have some deep cultural insight into the true nature of each countries people.

orientalism type gibberish is usually more of a mirror into the person having the opinion than the thing being opined upon.
Very good Grasshopper! ;)

"Be like water."

water is very insensitive.
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