Charity vs. Taxation

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Simple Minded

Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:i dont buy this angle at all, its coming from the final solution mindset and isnt taking into account chaotic humans chasing moar moar moar.

the real world outcome of this 'toxic product' horseshit analysis was 20 years of record low interest rates and easy to get credit that made for a massive boom for the entire planet.

everyone genuflecting loved it, everyone voted for it, left, right, centre and reverseflipped wankeroonie.. they only cared when the party stopped and the debt required paying back.

the old farts mumbling about not taking on too much debt less you find yourself over leveraged were laughed at and called idiots that didnt understand the new reality

the smart kids all said that money not leveraged was money being wasted.

the very governments you want to legislate against this DEMANDED it to maintain the social services they promised, you sound like endo blaming the germans.
very succinctly stated. If your parents were born before the Great Depression, and you heard "why don't you get a job?" as a child when you asked them for a new toy....... or "Ya got any money? No? then you better learn to do without!" then you probably did not over leverage during the boom.

But if you were a special snowflake, middle class, child of privilege.... you mighta went whole hog for status items. It seems, every generation needs to burn themselves on the stove before they understand the concept of hot. Seems to be wired into our hardware.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

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noddy wrote:i dont buy this angle at all, its coming from the final solution mindset and isnt taking into account chaotic humans chasing moar moar moar.
Nah. It is coming from a mindset that acknowledges chaos and moar, but also that freedom and limits on freedom are in constant negotiation or even in lethal competition. The opposite of any final solution. Setting limits on behaviors happens all the time. Don't get me started.
the real world outcome of this 'toxic product' horseshit analysis was 20 years of record low interest rates and easy to get credit that made for a massive boom for the entire planet.
I'm not sure this is actually true. Actually, I think it is nonsense.
everyone genuflecting loved it, everyone voted for it, left, right, centre and reverseflipped wankeroonie.. they only cared when the party stopped and the debt required paying back.
Everybody loves a party, but a badly designed electronic circuitry will burn down rather fast. For instance a party house with only one fuse and one power group feeds the entire building. Most common sense electronic engineers consider a house with more groups much safer and less costly when shortcuts occur. And there is more common sense applicable; for instance you don't want an insurance company who makes more money when your risks are higher... to design such a party house.
the old farts mumbling about not taking on too much debt less you find yourself over leveraged were laughed at and called idiots that didnt understand the new reality
Usually people only learn from things that hurt, not warnings about being hurt in the future.
the smart kids all said that money not leveraged was money being wasted.
the very governments you want to legislate against this DEMANDED it to maintain the social services they promised, you sound like endo blaming the germans.
Not sure I understand this. :) But maybe yes... in general leftwing gvts tend to have no idea how to make money before it can be spent on social issues. Corporate gangs however... know exactly what they want and how to fool-bribe clueless-selfish politicians to make it happen. The oligarch commie class is real and its tentacles spreading.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by noddy »

Parodite wrote:
noddy wrote:i dont buy this angle at all, its coming from the final solution mindset and isnt taking into account chaotic humans chasing moar moar moar.
Nah. It is coming from a mindset that acknowledges chaos and moar, but also that freedom and limits on freedom are in constant negotiation or even in lethal competition. The opposite of any final solution. Setting limits on behaviors happens all the time. Don't get me started.
no.

their is not final resting place of this -you cant claim their is, thats nonsense and inhuman.

we used to have lots of controls over banks and interest rates pushing 20% and hard to get loans, we went the other direction incrementaly, why .. do you remeber all the problems in the 70's and 80's that triggered this change in attitude ?

business's failing because credit was hard to get and had 20% interest rates, intolerable minor depressions during the business cycles that people thought debt would solve.

also, how does one police multinational banks across international borders ? who is this totalitarian government ?

how is this real in any way ?

we had collective madness as cultures, taking the easy money and leveraging up - wouldnt have mattered if the chain of dominos wasnt 'toxic', the same outcome would happen, you cant stop governments and keynesians, you dont have a big enough army.

this wasnt all bribes and corrupt bankers, i cant accept that very limited viewpoint
the real world outcome of this 'toxic product' horseshit analysis was 20 years of record low interest rates and easy to get credit that made for a massive boom for the entire planet.


I'm not sure this is actually true. Actually, I think it is nonsense.


its definately true, in any country that had lots of easy credit during that 20 year period, which was all the ones caught hopping when the music stopped.

its nonsense to not understand that, its basic history, it started in the 1990's, had a small hiccup for the dotcom bust and then powered through till the GFC.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by noddy »

Parodite wrote:
Everybody loves a party, but a badly designed electronic circuitry will burn down rather fast. For instance a party house with only one fuse and one power group feeds the entire building. Most common sense electronic engineers consider a house with more groups much safer and less costly when shortcuts occur. And there is more common sense applicable; for instance you don't want an insurance company who makes more money when your risks are higher... to design such a party house.
.
you cant build electronics with cats :)

sure, common sense, dont overleverage, dont borrow from dodgy sources at cheap floating rates.

simples. a few rules should do it, why didnt anyone think of making common sense compulsory ? madness, an oversight of millenia.

im not being facetious, i really cant see in a global system how you can legislate against madness - you can only suffer from it, learn the lesson and have your own immunity that lasts for a generation, maybe 2 if your lucky.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Parodite »

Okay... just wrote a long IRREFUTABLE :ugeek: post, but got timed out and lost it :D :cry: Nother day a retry.
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Simple Minded

Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Simple Minded »

Punished by Nemesis I presume....
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:Punished by Nemesis I presume....
I feel haunted lately..
Deep down I'm very superficial
Simple Minded

Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Punished by Nemesis I presume....
I feel haunted lately..
I'm not surprised. Always trust your gut. People as smart as you, shouldn't flaunt it in cyberspace. ;)

After all, they got to Assange....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awzNHuGqoMc
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:
Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Punished by Nemesis I presume....
I feel haunted lately..
I'm not surprised. Always trust your gut. People as smart as you, shouldn't flaunt it in cyberspace. ;)

After all, they got to Assange....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awzNHuGqoMc
It is a challenge for me to stay humble.. will admit that. :P (humble admission!) I'm kind though...at least I'm told. (gained humbleness immediately self-defeated).
Deep down I'm very superficial
Simple Minded

Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
It is a challenge for me to stay humble.. will admit that. :P (humble admission!) I'm kind though...at least I'm told. (gained humbleness immediately self-defeated).
The trade off was worth it, the value of humble lost was exceeded by the value of virtue gained. I feel your pain.

My previous was deliberately written so it could be interpreted as "You are a person of superior intelligence" or "You are a person of inferior intelligence." :D

As the old saying goes: "I found life to be like a long obstacle course...... with me as the chief obstacle." :o

or another favorite: "the greatest battles of life are fought daily in the silent chambers of the soul." :shock:
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:
Parodite wrote:
It is a challenge for me to stay humble.. will admit that. :P (humble admission!) I'm kind though...at least I'm told. (gained humbleness immediately self-defeated).
The trade off was worth it, the value of humble lost was exceeded by the value of virtue gained. I feel your pain.

My previous was deliberately written so it could be interpreted as "You are a person of superior intelligence" or "You are a person of inferior intelligence." :D

As the old saying goes: "I found life to be like a long obstacle course...... with me as the chief obstacle." :o

or another favorite: "the greatest battles of life are fought daily in the silent chambers of the soul." :shock:
You got it. ;)

Interesting HOWEVER, is that we are apparently able to perform some sort of out of/in to body experience trick and look at ourselves simultaneously from a 3rd person and a 1st person view point. Or watching a movie and know they are just changing pixels on a screen and seeing actors at work (how more fake can you have it), but simultaneously believing everything is real. Maybe not simultaneously but alternating back and forth, in and out. Sort of observer-observed switch board.
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Simple Minded

Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
You got it. ;)

Interesting HOWEVER, is that we are apparently able to perform some sort of out of/in to body experience trick and look at ourselves simultaneously from a 3rd person and a 1st person view point. Or watching a movie and know they are just changing pixels on a screen and seeing actors at work (how more fake can you have it), but simultaneously believing everything is real. Maybe not simultaneously but alternating back and forth, in and out. Sort of observer-observed switch board.
As they say, "Even a blind hog finds a acorn every once in a while." That is probably, IMSMO, one of the most interesting aspects of being human.

We are incredibly powerful gods, capable of not only manipulating reality to create our worlds, but also capable of doing the same with our perceptions & perspectives. And of course, the gods resemble the creators.

That some days we f**k up everything we touch goes without saying, which is why we are gods and not Gods. :)

Imagination not only rules the world, it creates it.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Parodite »

Potential caveat: some fiction is more fiction than other fiction. :P Yes, we need a fictional standard to "objectively" measure these things. Tough. Paralysis lurks, but we will always keep walking. A miracle!
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Parodite wrote:Okay... just wrote a long IRREFUTABLE :ugeek: post, but got timed out and lost it :D :cry: Nother day a retry.
Always highlight and copy before hitting submit.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:that's not a bad analogy. I always liked Hazlett's phrase "The private sector is the voluntary sector. The public sector is the coercive sector."
As long the state steps in to prevent the formation of various monopolies.
lol the state is a monopoly.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

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Simple Minded wrote: very succinctly stated. If your parents were born before the Great Depression, and you heard "why don't you get a job?" as a child when you asked them for a new toy....... or "Ya got any money? No? then you better learn to do without!" then you probably did not over leverage during the boom.

But if you were a special snowflake, middle class, child of privilege.... you mighta went whole hog for status items. It seems, every generation needs to burn themselves on the stove before they understand the concept of hot. Seems to be wired into our hardware.
I think something you're not factoring into account is the uniqueness of the post-WWII bubble and the world the Boomers came of age in. Consumer debt was a relative novelty and there wasn't much of a template for how to manage it. Sure, mortgages were nothing new, but the financial complexity that developed after WWII and its accessibility to ordinary people was unprecedented. Couple that the relentless indoctrination of America's state religion -- consumerism and sociopathic bottom-line-driven capitalism -- to the exclusion of all other ideologies (which is what leaves Trump supporters so impotent and frustrated in their rage today), and you have a recipe for profligacy.

My generation, and the one after, were raised at the peak of American prosperity and despite the 2008 crisis, experienced nothing really comparable to the Great Depression. Yet, we are far better savers. I think that's in large part due to an awareness of how complex financial arrangements can blow up and a general lack of trust in sleazy business types (the priests that Boomers and Trump supporters alike still fête).
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:that's not a bad analogy. I always liked Hazlett's phrase "The private sector is the voluntary sector. The public sector is the coercive sector."
As long the state steps in to prevent the formation of various monopolies.
lol the state is a monopoly.
Hence the need for open borders. Consumer choice!
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

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Mr. Perfect wrote:lol the state is a monopoly.
Of course. And it's supposed to keep other monopolies in check. Just like you're "normal" if you share in the common insanity and "crazy" if you develop your own.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:lol the state is a monopoly.
Of course. And it's supposed to keep other monopolies in check. Just like you're "normal" if you share in the common insanity and "crazy" if you develop your own.
Lol tell Goldman Sachs that the government is keeping it in check.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Lol tell Goldman Sachs that the government is keeping it in check.
I said "supposed to".
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Zack Morris wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: very succinctly stated. If your parents were born before the Great Depression, and you heard "why don't you get a job?" as a child when you asked them for a new toy....... or "Ya got any money? No? then you better learn to do without!" then you probably did not over leverage during the boom.

But if you were a special snowflake, middle class, child of privilege.... you mighta went whole hog for status items. It seems, every generation needs to burn themselves on the stove before they understand the concept of hot. Seems to be wired into our hardware.
I think something you're not factoring into account is the uniqueness of the post-WWII bubble and the world the Boomers came of age in. Consumer debt was a relative novelty and there wasn't much of a template for how to manage it. Sure, mortgages were nothing new, but the financial complexity that developed after WWII and its accessibility to ordinary people was unprecedented. Couple that the relentless indoctrination of America's state religion -- consumerism and sociopathic bottom-line-driven capitalism -- to the exclusion of all other ideologies (which is what leaves Trump supporters so impotent and frustrated in their rage today), and you have a recipe for profligacy.

My generation, and the one after, were raised at the peak of American prosperity and despite the 2008 crisis, experienced nothing really comparable to the Great Depression. Yet, we are far better savers. I think that's in large part due to an awareness of how complex financial arrangements can blow up and a general lack of trust in sleazy business types (the priests that Boomers and Trump supporters alike still fête).
Another data free Zack Morris post. Btw data shows your generation hopelessly in debt because of psychology degrees so they live at home and consume pornography all day.

Edit; lol sociopathic capitalism produced the highest standard of living for the most people in human history while your ideology produced the death of 50-100 million people via various government programs.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Lol tell Goldman Sachs that the government is keeping it in check.
I said "supposed to".
When government never ever ever does what you think it is supposed to do you have to reexamine your premises.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:When government never ever ever does what you think it is supposed to do you have to reexamine your premises.
And if government sometimes sometimes sometimes does what I think it's supposed to?
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

You have to do cost benefit analysis. obama has been the most corporate friendly President in history and Hillary is going to beat him. And they both come from your party. So when you choose the most corporatist presidents in over a century while imagining that you are fighting corporations in america we have a process called a mental health screening.

Also government consumes 40% of the economy here and 50% in most social democracies while historically private monopolies comprise a tiny tiny tiny fraction of 1% of gdp.

So when you fight imaginary dragons while completely incognizant of real ones burning down your village then this subject matter may not be for you.
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Re: Charity vs. Taxation

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:You have to do cost benefit analysis. obama has been the most corporate friendly President in history and Hillary is going to beat him. And they both come from your party. So when you choose the most corporatist presidents in over a century while imagining that you are fighting corporations in america we have a process called a mental health screening.

Also government consumes 40% of the economy here and 50% in most social democracies while historically private monopolies comprise a tiny tiny tiny fraction of 1% of gdp.

So when you fight imaginary dragons while completely incognizant of real ones burning down your village then this subject matter may not be for you.
Oh, my. :)
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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