Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West?

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Heracleum Persicum
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Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West?

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

It has influenced Star Wars and Game of Thrones
characters as diverse as Voltaire, Nietzsche and Freddy Mercury have cited it as an inspiration.
So what is Zoroastrianism ?


alk of ‘us’ and ‘them’ has long dominated Iran-related politics in the West. At the same time, Christianity has frequently been used to define the identity and values of the US and Europe, as well as to contrast those values with those of a Middle Eastern ‘other’.

Yet, a brief glance at an ancient religion – still being practised today – suggests that what many take for granted as wholesome Western ideals, beliefs and culture may in fact have Iranian roots.

Well, an excellent reading Mr. Perfect, NH, SM and Doc

Now you guys understand what HP talking about.

.
How did Zoroastrian ideas find their way into the Abrahamic faiths and elsewhere ?

According to scholars, many of these concepts were introduced to the Jews of Babylon upon being liberated by the Persian emperor Cyrus the Great.

They trickled into mainstream Jewish thought, and figures like Beelzebub emerged.

And after Persia’s conquests of Greek lands during the heyday of the Achaemenid Empire, Greek philosophy took a different course.

The Greeks had previously believed humans had little agency, and that their fates were at the mercy of their many gods, whom often acted according to whim and fancy.

After their acquaintance with Iranian religion and philosophy, however, they began to feel more as if they were the masters of their destinies, and that their decisions were in their own hands.

..

So enamoured with Iranian culture was Voltaire that he was known in his circles as ‘Sa’di’. In the same spirit, Goethe’s West-East Divan, dedicatedto the Persian poet Hafez, featured a Zoroastrian-themed chapter, while Thomas Moore lamented the fate of Iran’s Zoroastrians in Lalla Rookh.

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Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by Simple Minded »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:

Well, an excellent reading Mr. Perfect, NH, SM and Doc

Now you guys understand what HP talking about.
HP,

Thanks for posting. Real question is will you ever understand what we are talking about? ;)
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Simple Minded wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:

Well, an excellent reading Mr. Perfect, NH, SM and Doc

Now you guys understand what HP talking about.

HP,

Thanks for posting. Real question is will you ever understand what we are talking about? ;)

.

Fair enough, SM

In a nutshell, what is what you guys up to ? ? ?


.
Simple Minded

Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by Simple Minded »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:

Fair enough, SM

In a nutshell, what is what you guys up to ? ? ?


.
Inshallah!

Beats the hell out of me what "you guys" are up to.

The good people of SimpleMindedStan long ago seceded from all the various forms of group identity. We think they are all nuts!

Hell, no one even gets to define themselves anymore. Only the observer can determine group identity, not the observee. How fair is that? ;)

On the flip side, it does not take much of a religious scholar to note that newer religions often borrowed from older religions. What choice did they have?
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Simple Minded wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:

Fair enough, SM

In a nutshell, what is what you guys up to ? ? ?


.
Inshallah!

Beats the hell out of me what "you guys" are up to.

The good people of SimpleMindedStan long ago seceded from all the various forms of group identity. We think they are all nuts!

Hell, no one even gets to define themselves anymore. Only the observer can determine group identity, not the observee. How fair is that? ;)

On the flip side, it does not take much of a religious scholar to note that newer religions often borrowed from older religions. What choice did they have ?

.


Zoroastrianism is not a religion as defined by Abrahamite religions .. definitely not in Judaism and Islam sense, not at all

Zoroastrianism a philosophy of Morality .. "good thoughts, good words, good deeds".

It ain't that somebody (G_D) sent somebody (Moh) ordering Joe don't have pork chops otherwise you will be killed, your wife and daughter sold into slave market .. or don't put Chicken and egg in same fridge but bulldozing other people's home and settling it is OK.

Hebrew tribe in Babylonian copying from Zoroastrianism dropped the "heart of the matter" "good thoughts, good words, good deeds" .. there is no conversion or beheading or crusaders or settling other people's homes.
The idea of a single god was not the only essentially Zoroastrian tenet to find its way into other major faiths, most notably the ‘big three’: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The concepts of Heaven and Hell, Judgment Day and the final revelation of the world, and angels and demons all originated in the teachings of Zarathustra, as well as the later canon of Zoroastrian literature they inspired. Even the idea of Satan is a fundamentally Zoroastrian one; in fact, the entire faith of Zoroastrianism is predicated on the struggle between God and the forces of goodness and light (represented by the Holy Spirit, Spenta Manyu) and Ahriman, who presides over the forces of darkness and evil. While man has to choose to which side he belongs, the religion teaches that ultimately, God will prevail, and even those condemned to hellfire will enjoy the blessings of Paradise (an Old Persian word).

SM, consider this, when Pomegranates had Zoroastrianism, what were the circumstances in Greece, Egypt, Rome.
The Greeks had previously believed humans had little agency, and that their fates were at the mercy of their many gods, whom often acted according to whim and fancy.

After their acquaintance with Iranian religion and philosophy, however, they began to feel more as if they were the masters of their destinies, and that their decisions were in their own hands.

The above shows, America a "young" nation, must be very careful dealing with that part of the world .. you dealing with many 1000 yrs old, WISE culture and civilization that has seen many much worst disasters.


.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by noddy »

its not our fault all the grande olde cultures were too busy masturbating themselves over past glories many centuries ago and didnt keep up with modernity.

you can keep your binary religion of crude good and evil, we have had enough trouble from that false wisdom, its the path of isolated madness.

areas of grey make the modern world go round.
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Simple Minded

Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by Simple Minded »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:

Fair enough, SM

In a nutshell, what is what you guys up to ? ? ?


.
Inshallah!

Beats the hell out of me what "you guys" are up to.

The good people of SimpleMindedStan long ago seceded from all the various forms of group identity. We think they are all nuts!

Hell, no one even gets to define themselves anymore. Only the observer can determine group identity, not the observee. How fair is that? ;)

On the flip side, it does not take much of a religious scholar to note that newer religions often borrowed from older religions. What choice did they have ?

.


Zoroastrianism is not a religion as defined by Abrahamite religions .. definitely not in Judaism and Islam sense, not at all

Zoroastrianism a philosophy of Morality .. "good thoughts, good words, good deeds".

It ain't that somebody (G_D) sent somebody (Moh) ordering Joe don't have pork chops otherwise you will be killed, your wife and daughter sold into slave market .. or don't put Chicken and egg in same fridge but bulldozing other people's home and settling it is OK.

Hebrew tribe in Babylonian copying from Zoroastrianism dropped the "heart of the matter" "good thoughts, good words, good deeds" .. there is no conversion or beheading or crusaders or settling other people's homes.
The idea of a single god was not the only essentially Zoroastrian tenet to find its way into other major faiths, most notably the ‘big three’: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The concepts of Heaven and Hell, Judgment Day and the final revelation of the world, and angels and demons all originated in the teachings of Zarathustra, as well as the later canon of Zoroastrian literature they inspired. Even the idea of Satan is a fundamentally Zoroastrian one; in fact, the entire faith of Zoroastrianism is predicated on the struggle between God and the forces of goodness and light (represented by the Holy Spirit, Spenta Manyu) and Ahriman, who presides over the forces of darkness and evil. While man has to choose to which side he belongs, the religion teaches that ultimately, God will prevail, and even those condemned to hellfire will enjoy the blessings of Paradise (an Old Persian word).

SM, consider this, when Pomegranates had Zoroastrianism, what were the circumstances in Greece, Egypt, Rome.
The Greeks had previously believed humans had little agency, and that their fates were at the mercy of their many gods, whom often acted according to whim and fancy.

After their acquaintance with Iranian religion and philosophy, however, they began to feel more as if they were the masters of their destinies, and that their decisions were in their own hands.

The above shows, America a "young" nation, must be very careful dealing with that part of the world .. you dealing with many 1000 yrs old, WISE culture and civilization that has seen many much worst disasters.


.
Amen Brother. If the US practiced more isolationism, that would be fine with me. Personally, I think the Buddhists have it closest to being right. Karma can be a bitch or a blessing in both this lifetime and the next. Who needs Heaven or Hell?

SimpleMindedStan has retreated into isolationism bolstered by a healthy dose of Old Redneck Zen. Works great! You think the illiterate farmers living in the remote mountains of Iran have their shite together? You need to meet the illiterate farmers living in the remote mountains of Appalachia! ;)
Simple Minded

Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:its not our fault all the grande olde cultures were too busy masturbating themselves over past glories many centuries ago and didnt keep up with modernity.

you can keep your binary religion of crude good and evil, we have had enough trouble from that false wisdom, its the path of isolated madness.

areas of grey make the modern world go round.
That's why I love you bro! You always take hold of things by the smooth handle, don't you? Not sure if you are an Old Redneck Zen Disciple or master.

"You made that bed, now lie in it!"
"That's why stupid is supposed to hurt!"

Isolated madness is fine with me, it is the interactive madness that causes more problems. Luckily, the same modern tech that brought us the interactive madness of the internet, also promises a solution with the isolated madness of augmented reality glasses. Everybody pretending to be Batman or Wonder Woman in their mother's basement seems like a happy compromise.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by noddy »

Simple Minded wrote: Isolated madness is fine with me, it is the interactive madness that causes more problems. Luckily, the same modern tech that brought us the interactive madness of the internet, also promises a solution with the isolated madness of augmented reality glasses. Everybody pretending to be Batman or Wonder Woman in their mother's basement seems like a happy compromise.
i wasnt thinking the good type of mind your own business isolated madness, i was thinking the self righteously judgemental flavour of good and evil taken beyond its original scope of 'god will get you'.

as practitioners of that school of thinking are wont to do, be they ibrahimic or progressomatic.

never go for the smooth handle, thats the worn out one, the head will fall off.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:
never go for the smooth handle, thats the worn out one, the head will fall off.
I am humbled before greatness. No doubt remains. ORZ Master fer sure.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by noddy »

Nursie: "Oh, that's another good idea. You're so clever today, you better be careful your foot doesn't fall off."
Queenie:"Does that happen when you have lots of brilliant ideas? Your foot falls off?"
Nursie: "It certainly does. My brother; he had this brilliant idea of cutting his toenails with a scythe, and his foot fell off..."
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

What is obscure about it? It was the religion of mighty empires and a cause célèbre for orientalists, the spiritualist movements, and several academic disciplines from the past 200 years?

It's step 1, from the 19th century on, in undermining Christianity-- (and that is not the fault of Zoroaster are the remnant of Parsi followers spread out around the globe)

The problem is, we still do not have a written account of the religion that predates the Christian era and most of the writing comes post-Muhammed, in what clearly looks like a conscious attempt by a priesthood to exalt their own prophet to a people increasingly tempted to convert to Islam and Christianity.

We don't even have a clear date on Zoroaster 600 BC to 6000 BC- and any influence he had was superseded by Buddhism in its homeland of Afghanistan.

In short, if it's obscure (to westerners) it is because it is mostly made up or exaggerated by westerners who hate their own cultural heritage- rightly or wrongly- and hope to appropriate something else.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

What it comes down to is this:

No disrespect to the Zoroastrian tradition but there is no reason to understand it as though it is to be evaluted through an Abrahamic lens. By that I mean entertaining a claim a certain amount of historicity to its dogma. In that light; if the claim is made that it too possesses the same historicity, there is no reason to let it slide from being judged by the very same criticisms of the other three religions- like when it comes to source criticism. And in that light, it doesn't have a leg to stand.

The Avestas were written down in the 4th century AD (our only copy comes from the 13th) as a compilation of oral traditions [which ones?] with some (and the keyword is some) of the hymns showing linguistic artifacts from an earlier time period- the 2nd and 3rd centuries BC. Otherwise, those aspects cited as similarities do not pre-date the centuries Christians consider "AD"- especially eschatogically.Pahlavi scripts on the matter differ considerably from one another in detail and emphasis when it comes to eschatology; they do not correspond all that well to either the intertestimentary period nor to the Christian conceptions found in St.Paul or St.John. I don't know enough about the Talmud or other Jewish extra-biblical sources written from the intertestimentary period to say, the compilation of Zoroastrian texts in the 4th century. On that front, I would assume you'd find greater agreement if you were to find it at all, considering how much of it was written in Persian territory- but I'd be wary of it being a whole lot, considering how little Persian influence shows up in Jewish theology as found in Biblical texts....but more on that in a bit...

The one agreement between all of these religions is in the bodily resurrection at the end of time. There is a short passage in the Gathas which affirms this, but then again, we cannot place when this idea entered Zorostrianism in any historical context, except that it too shows up in a post-Christ world. It can ultimately be a corollary to the premise held by both ancient Jews and Pomegranates that the body and soul as two are not distinct things; so the notion that they must be reunited at some point seems a reasonable conclusion to people who saw the soul surviving as a moral entity.

The typical assumption is that as both agree on this point, it must have gone from the Pomegranates to the Jews; but the biggest problem with this is that we have a written account of Jewish theology and history with the Bible, with final redaction dating at the very least slightly before Christ but long after Persian influence would've affected the text- and that clear Persian influence on the Bible is descriptions of government, not theology. Which is why, as far as my understanding goes, if you leaf through the text you'll find a bunch of Persian loanwords (or Persian influences) describing the kingdom of Israel but not one in regard to its theology.

The only Biblical book loaning from Persia is the Book of Tobit, where one of the demon's names is from Persian mythology.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

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noddy wrote:its not our fault all the grande olde cultures were too busy masturbating themselves over past glories many centuries ago and didnt keep up with modernity.

. . .
Quite.

One aspect of Western societies is that they were in a constant state of competition and flux. No single centre ever consolidated power.
If this had been the case, then Western civilization may have become static and ossified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21h0G_g ... be&t=2m36s

A bit unfair to the Swiss, but I would argue that the general point holds.
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Re: Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The We

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

I think something Azari said a while ago (the last time this topic came up) gets to the heart of the matter. I wish I could remember (or find) how Azari worded it but....

The genius of what he passed down was the kernel of a wisdom tradition that reformulated the idea of the priestly castes and presented a religious identity to everyday persons. There is likely not a Buddha or a Plato or the Tirthankara teachers in India without a Zoroaster.

It has to be the among the first religion-wisdom traditions that sort of privatized the state religion and bypassed the usual notions of hierarchy in Indo-European practice by creating an ethical-metaphysics applicable to all- priestly caste dealing with matters of state and "big religion" and the folkways being an admixture of animism, ancestor worship and household cults which took a backseat to the public cultus.

And what we can tell from the evidence presented is that this Zoroaster and his tradition was rather sophisticated for his times and likely did have a great influence that grew over the centuries.

Also, without this kernel, it becomes very hard to imagine the famed religious tolerance of Pomegranates.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by noddy »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:What is obscure about it? It was the religion of mighty empires and a cause célèbre for orientalists, the spiritualist movements, and several academic disciplines from the past 200 years?

It's step 1, from the 19th century on, in undermining Christianity-- (and that is not the fault of Zoroaster are the remnant of Parsi followers spread out around the globe)

The problem is, we still do not have a written account of the religion that predates the Christian era and most of the writing comes post-Muhammed, in what clearly looks like a conscious attempt by a priesthood to exalt their own prophet to a people increasingly tempted to convert to Islam and Christianity.

We don't even have a clear date on Zoroaster 600 BC to 6000 BC- and any influence he had was superseded by Buddhism in its homeland of Afghanistan.

In short, if it's obscure (to westerners) it is because it is mostly made up or exaggerated by westerners who hate their own cultural heritage- rightly or wrongly- and hope to appropriate something else.
thats always been my understanding of it, for better or worse.

certain jews and the Pomegranates will have to fight it out amongst themselves for trying to claim ownership of the modern west and all its achievements, i wish them luck.
Last edited by noddy on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

Post by noddy »

Simple Minded wrote: it does not take much of a religious scholar to note that newer religions often borrowed from older religions. What choice did they have?
arbitrarily plucking those moments out of history is the basic building block of a good cultural rant!

remember, you are good because your people are good and your people are good because... things that happened centuries before you were born.
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Re: BBC - The Obscure Religion That Shaped The West

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Simple Minded wrote: it does not take much of a religious scholar to note that newer religions often borrowed from older religions. What choice did they have?
Indeed.

Wikipedia:
In the 19th century, Assyriologist George Smith translated the Babylonian account of a great flood. Further discoveries produced several versions of the Mesopotamian flood myth, with the account closest to that in Genesis found in a 700 BCE Babylonian copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh.[5]:20 In this work, the hero Gilgamesh meets the immortal man Utnapishtim, and the latter describes how the god Ea instructed him to build a huge vessel in anticipation of a deity-created flood that would destroy the world. The vessel would save Utnapishtim, his family, his friends, and the animals.
Archaeologists have discovered the evidence of an early occupation at Ur during the Ubaid period (ca. 6500 to 3800 BC). These early levels were sealed off with a sterile deposit of soil that was interpreted by excavators of the 1920s as evidence for the Great Flood of the Book of Genesis and Epic of Gilgamesh. It is now understood that the South Mesopotamian plain was exposed to regular floods from the Euphrates and the Tigris rivers, with heavy erosion from water and wind, which may have given rise to the Mesopotamian and derivative Biblical Great Flood stories.[7] The further occupation of Ur only becomes clear during its emergence in the third millennium BC (although it must already have been a growing urban center during the fourth millennium). The third millennium BC is generally described as the Early Bronze Age of Mesopotamia, which ends approximately after the demise of the Third Dynasty of Ur in the 21st century BC.
Makes me wonder if there is was an oral memory of the tail end of the great post ice age sea level rise which was eventually written down in the Epic of Gilgamesh:

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Re: Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The We

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

Have to admit, NapLajoieonSteroids , you have surprised Azari .. did not expect such (deep AND scholarly) knowledge of this .. appreciate the posts.

Here, a new source for your studies

UCLA

Established by Professor Ebrahim Pourdavoud, a pioneering scholar of ancient Persia, and was made possible by a gift from his granddaughter, Dr. Anahita Naficy Lovelace, and her husband, James B. Lovelace.


Coming back to your 3 posts, I think you miss the heart of this issue .. this not really about theology (St. Paul etc etc .. that settled long ago with all the records), this about civilization that Zoroastrianism was introducing to Greece, Egypt, Rome .. those civilization, in today's metrics would qualify as "animal Kingdom", Egyptians having Granite Half animals as Gods who decided people's destiny and had to be fed with Gold, or Greek who had Gods for everything and had to donate girls virginity to Temple and the Romans going to Arena for weekend fun watching gladiators killing each other.
The Greeks had previously believed humans had little agency, and that their fates were at the mercy of their many gods, whom often acted according to whim and fancy.

After their acquaintance with Iranian religion and philosophy, however, they began to feel more as if they were the masters of their destinies, and that their decisions were in their own hands.
This is tectonic change in how one views world, which lead later to logic, science

How do you think Cyrus the Persian came with "universal general human right" declaration ? ? that only could come from within Zoroastrian mindset .. could a Pharao, or Roman emperor or a Macedonian dream such ? ? :lol: .. you see the difference ?

You saying :
It was the religion of mighty empires and a cause célèbre for orientalists, the spiritualist movements, and several academic disciplines from the past 200 years ?
come on, NapLajoieonSteroids .. you belittling the biggest philosophers western civilization ever had, Voltaire, Goethe, Hegel and many others of that time are the HEART of Western philosophy, logic, civilization .. they knew what they were talking .. Hegel considered Persia where human civilization began.

The theological angle of this immaterial, just a FOOTNOTE, and diminishing in importance, diluting exponentially.

The other much more important angle, the spirit of Zoroastrianism that should have lead to a much better world for humanity, is not understood.

When the Hebrew tribe in Babylon was cherry picking elements of Zoroastrianism to build the Judaism we know today (that lead to Christianity and Islam), they missed, not even understood (they were not in that league) what Zoroastrianism is about, they just took the Myth and left the heart of the matter out :

"good thoughts, good words, good deeds" (Humata, Hukhta, Hvarshta in Avestan)


Result were the Abrahamite religions, and, millions and millions killed in that name, still going on.

.
Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The We

Post by noddy »

some argue that stoicism and natural law combined with germanic tribal rights gets you pretty close.
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Re: Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The We

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.
noddy wrote:some argue that stoicism and natural law combined with germanic tribal rights gets you pretty close.

yes, it does get you close

Question only is , close to what, noddy, close to what ? ? ? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:




8r-e2NDSTuE


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Re: Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The We

Post by noddy »

close to shaping the western concepts of humans rights , which was the claim in the OP, a claim that requires more than the approval of freddy mercury, a bbc article and a few dead/depressed germans.

the jews,christians and now the Pomegranates all claim responsibility for the bits of the west they like, while the bits they dont like which are lurking paganism, so i call shenanigans. :lol:

specially when this distinction you are so proud of, the difference betwen the spirit of the law and the letter of the law is also the claim made by the christians and all magor jewish splitters, its a very common claim, you see it every time a club splits :)

the heart of the matter i believe was how the line between "them and us" gets drawn and that line is a very blurry thing indeed with all the various parties finding plenty of reasons to place folks on the wrong side of it.

the wishy washy universalist rhetoric is of minor concern to me, im not a fan of john lennon , it *always* has terms and conditions.
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Re: Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The We

Post by Simple Minded »

This is shaping up to be a classic OTNOT thread.
An obscure religion that isn't a religion, but a philosophy.... according to the OPer, even though the word religion was used by the OPer in the OP...
An ideology that explains the famed religious tolerance of Pomegranates, assuming Napster meant dead Pomegranates of course....
God Caused Global Warming (GCGW) kills off the faulty members of humanity, for the sake of humanity, but since we have lost the wisdom of our ancestors, we now think AGW and rising sea levels are bad things..... even though multiple ancient tales tell us rising sea levels and people dying is good..... is it bad this time around simply cause some people think "we" are causing it..... are the proponents of AGW doing the devil's work....
The timeless cultural theme of I'm better than you cause of something my ancestors did, or yours did centuries before either of us was born.....
Crediting our ancestors, or someone else's ancestor's with our virtues or our faults, OR... their virtues or their faults.... depending upon our mood....

I'm pretty sure something shaped the modern West, but did it happen over there, back then, or over here, just recently....

I have in my hand, an ancient oral manuscript that says "Utnapishtim" was Farsi for SimpleMinded......
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Re: Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The We

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

I prefer general theories before getting into specifics. Keeps things organized.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age
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Re: Zoroastrianism | The Obscure Religion That Shaped The We

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Simple Minded wrote:
An ideology that explains the famed religious tolerance of Pomegranates, assuming Napster meant dead Pomegranates of course....
I did have the ancient world in mind but credit where it is due, how many minority religions sneak under the Shia Islam banner?

It's a thorny and taboo topic but there appears to be a bit of that residue of that imperial persian protection still going on.
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