Reason and Reality

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Parodite
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:The flux and the filters fascinate me. “There are 300+ million other people in “our” country, many of whom disagree with me. The American experiment is not working! “
What seems to me the big flaw in the ethno-nationalist enthusiasts is that they consider civic nationalism a sort of flimsy ideology or utopia trumped by historical facts that supposedly show that ethnicity and ethnic culture is the real glue in societies and the only glue that is durable. Problem with these assumptions:

1. Ethnicity never is really homogeneous; there are physical and sub-cultural differences within ethnic groups. In fact, there are always all sorts of differences within any group.

2. Within any group conflicts of sorts can, and do erupt. Especially conflicts in groups that have a close kinship and compete in the same space. Just some examples. In southern Italy, where by any measure the people are ethnically and culturally very similar, different mobster gangs are continually at each others throat. The history of Western Europe, supposedly a nice collection of ethnically white folks, is one of enduring conflicts, wars, genocides. Black Africans selling other black Africans to slave traders. The list is of course... endless.

It is true that ethnic-cultural ties can be strong and organic, but they can not by any historical evidence be considered a good, let alone the best anti-dote to violence nor the most enduring glue that can hold societies together.

I would argue that the strongest glue historically and in half of the world today are totalitarian top-down societies with a dictator (or class) at the top. The reason that these dictatorships are quickly running out of steam and disappearing is because the world has become one open market of interdependent economies, of emerging democracies, better education on average, the scientific and technological revolution, women's rights and so on. Everything starts to mix as never before, included people with different levels of melatonin in their skins; the latter being the lowest denominator of all things that make a difference these days.

The country where all this modern mixing is strongest and for almost two centuries going on is now the world no.1 super power, and a country most people in the world would still love to go to and live the rest of their lives. The claim by Blond that "it is not working" is just too silly for words. And the dream of going back to some ethnically pure nationalism that never proved to be a guarantee for anything...most likely will turn into a nightmare, half of which the result of unintended consequences.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Simple Minded

Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:The flux and the filters fascinate me. “There are 300+ million other people in “our” country, many of whom disagree with me. The American experiment is not working! “
What seems to me the big flaw in the ethno-nationalist enthusiasts is that they consider civic nationalism a sort of flimsy ideology or utopia trumped by historical facts that supposedly show that ethnicity and ethnic culture is the real glue in societies and the only glue that is durable. Problem with these assumptions:

1. Ethnicity never is really homogeneous; there are physical and sub-cultural differences within ethnic groups. In fact, there are always all sorts of differences within any group.

2. Within any group conflicts of sorts can, and do erupt. Especially conflicts in groups that have a close kinship and compete in the same space. Just some examples. In southern Italy, where by any measure the people are ethnically and culturally very similar, different mobster gangs are continually at each others throat. The history of Western Europe, supposedly a nice collection of ethnically white folks, is one of enduring conflicts, wars, genocides. Black Africans selling other black Africans to slave traders. The list is of course... endless.

It is true that ethnic-cultural ties can be strong and organic, but they can not by any historical evidence be considered a good, let alone the best anti-dote to violence nor the most enduring glue that can hold societies together.

I would argue that the strongest glue historically and in half of the world today are totalitarian top-down societies with a dictator (or class) at the top. The reason that these dictatorships are quickly running out of steam and disappearing is because the world has become one open market of interdependent economies, of emerging democracies, better education on average, the scientific and technological revolution, women's rights and so on. Everything starts to mix as never before, included people with different levels of melatonin in their skins; the latter being the lowest denominator of all things that make a difference these days.

The country where all this modern mixing is strongest and for almost two centuries going on is now the world no.1 super power, and a country most people in the world would still love to go to and live the rest of their lives. The claim by Blond that "it is not working" is just too silly for words. And the dream of going back to some ethnically pure nationalism that never proved to be a guarantee for anything...most likely will turn into a nightmare, half of which the result of unintended consequences.
Beautifully put as usual Parodite. I am very proud of the you I have crated in my mind! ;)

IIRC, it has only been in to last 2-3 decades that the concept of the individual (at least in the US) has become widely scorned, and that the slaves to the concept of group identity have been successful in creating various group identities. Let the inter and intra competition between group identities for supremacy and comparative victim status begin.

Can Fred self-identify as a member of a group for which he has no genetic proof of membership? Isn't that cultural appropriation on his part? If I don't accept the self-identity Fred professes, is that racism or something-o-phobia on my part? Its' so confusing, but lets not utter the I word, even without the adjective of rugged preceding it!!!

As you point out, each group is perfectly capable of splintering into endless factions when competition for resources takes place.

"I" is no lonely and insignificant, but "we" don't agree on much very consistently?!?! Endlessly amusing to us simple minded types.

Here I think the solution is assigning each person a unique ID number. Unique numbers, one per person, with no connotations or speculations allowed that your ID number is even and divisible by 3, and while mine is odd and divisible by 7. I propose a new label, "Bit-Humanoid." Every personal ID number is unique and will never be duplicated, therefore, we are all priceless! :)

End of racism, sexism, and lots of isms. What to do about the innumerate would remain the only serious problem facing society.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:Here I think the solution is assigning each person a unique ID number. Unique numbers, one per person, with no connotations or speculations allowed that your ID number is even and divisible by 3, and while mine is odd and divisible by 7. I propose a new label, "Bit-Humanoid." Every personal ID number is unique and will never be duplicated, therefore, we are all priceless! :)

End of racism, sexism, and lots of isms. What to do about the innumerate would remain the only serious problem facing society.
I like the idea! Sort of home address for the rugged yet wholesome and unique individual. The agent. No matter that the individual is not really undivided; more like another battlefield where competition and co-operation do the usual, just at another scale. If only our individual IDs were fixed, static.. wouldn't that be neat and comfy. Numbers we could count on, count with and take into account! But we are not rational numbers. Irrational numbers more likely, and to make things worse they are changing all the time.

From here it is only a small step to the question of free will. Free will, if well defined and possible, has to be irrational because everything is irrational. Rational numbers are lies, or at best efforts to catch the truth and put it in a box where it will never change. That will always be in vain. Reason and rationality are approximations of the irrational truth.

If one believes that reason and fact best represent truth, of course free will must be a lie or illusion because it is irrational. But freedom exists ias no string of numbers, no pattern can exactly be repeated in the irrational world we are part of.

Something that never happened before can never be predicted exactly. What is new today is different from what was new yesterday and what will be new tomorrow. The proverbial "the only constant is change" is true on all levels and it means everything joins in sort of creative freedom, a party that may never end. The desire to live on forever as some constant, rational ID in Heaven sounds like suicide to me. :)

It is really difficult to catch the bird and put it in a cage. Listen to some of the best brains try and fail at that (if you have nothing better to do anyways of course). Well maybe not fail, they just do what is always inevitable; dancing around the camp fire while shooting arrows of thought into deep space.

WAKING UP WITH SAM HARRIS #112 — The Intellectual Dark Web
Deep down I'm very superficial
Simple Minded

Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
I like the idea! Sort of home address for the rugged yet wholesome and unique individual. The agent. No matter that the individual is not really undivided; more like another battlefield where competition and co-operation do the usual, just at another scale. If only our individual IDs were fixed, static.. wouldn't that be neat and comfy. Numbers we could count on, count with and take into account! But we are not rational numbers. Irrational numbers more likely, and to make things worse they are changing all the time.

From here it is only a small step to the question of free will. Free will, if well defined and possible, has to be irrational because everything is irrational. Rational numbers are lies, or at best efforts to catch the truth and put it in a box where it will never change. That will always be in vain. Reason and rationality are approximations of the irrational truth.

If one believes that reason and fact best represent truth, of course free will must be a lie or illusion because it is irrational. But freedom exists ias no string of numbers, no pattern can exactly be repeated in the irrational world we are part of.

Something that never happened before can never be predicted exactly. What is new today is different from what was new yesterday and what will be new tomorrow. The proverbial "the only constant is change" is true on all levels and it means everything joins in sort of creative freedom, a party that may never end. The desire to live on forever as some constant, rational ID in Heaven sounds like suicide to me. :)

It is really difficult to catch the bird and put it in a cage. Listen to some of the best brains try and fail at that (if you have nothing better to do anyways of course). Well maybe not fail, they just do what is always inevitable; dancing around the camp fire while shooting arrows of thought into deep space.

WAKING UP WITH SAM HARRIS #112 — The Intellectual Dark Web
WHOA NELLY! How did the version of you I imagined into existence get so far off my virtual rails? And do I have the mental capacity and foci to imagine you back into a manageable existential cage? Holy Matrix Batman!

I know there are rational numbers, irrational numbers, and imaginary numbers, but I don't know if a single number can be both irrational and imaginary. We might have to consult Typhoon on this (dark) matter. If Typhoon says it is impossible, we may have to hire a climate scientist or a witch doctor (assuming we can tell them apart) to manufacture the necessary psuedo-reality.

I think numbers are still the answer. "We" (each of "us") abandon names and all self -dentity and exchange the whole kitten caboodle for a virtual reality address limited to four dimensions at present.

That way we can all be rugged individualists, and only those we have actually met face to face (an insignificant percentage of the total human population, who the hell really cares about them?) will have even the slightest clue as to our skin tone, religion, nationality, religion, sexual preference, and the validity of our self-identification preferences.

Problem solved! Now I need a nap!
noddy
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by noddy »

isms form as naturally as fashion.

ethno nationalism is having a downward thrust right now due to the explosion of cool toys (tm) that benefits those that look outside their culture but if and when we reach new static ground again, i think the inward looking xenophobes will probably dominate once more.

we come from a time of constant change, its normal for us however for humanity over eons, its not so normal.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Parodite »

SM, I caused a virtual mess in your head it seems, or a mess in my own head about a maybe mess in your virtual imagery about yourself. Who knows? Nobody. :)

My talking about rational and irrational numbers was just meant as poetic spice (but I confess that while writing it started making more and more reasonable and real sense), but I was talking to you and Sam Harris at the same time - probably a recipe for creating confusion and obscure arguing. Won't happen again.
Deep down I'm very superficial
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:SM, I caused a virtual mess in your head it seems, or a mess in my own head about a maybe mess in your virtual imagery about yourself. Who knows? Nobody. :)

My talking about rational and irrational numbers was just meant as poetic spice (but I confess that while writing it started making more and more reasonable and real sense), but I was talking to you and Sam Harris at the same time - probably a recipe for creating confusion and obscure arguing. Won't happen again.
No worries mate! Sometimes my mental capacities exceed my wildest imaginations! It is like accessing information in dreams that you were not conscious of possessing!

So feel free to run fast and take chances! There is no security, just adventure.

A dear departed friend, whenever he noticed someone lost in thought would say, in quite a loud and dramatic voice "Hey! Hey! Come back now! It's dangerous out there!"

You may not possess the self-control you assume! :P

It would be an interesting experiment, replace all entho/national/tribal/group IDs with number and see how people decide to tribalize themselves.

Odd, even, prime, rational, irrational, divisible by 2, 3, 4, 5, etc, font type, and so on. I suspect it would not take long to happen. Freedom of association is a powerful draw.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:isms form as naturally as fashion.

ethno nationalism is having a downward thrust right now due to the explosion of cool toys (tm) that benefits those that look outside their culture but if and when we reach new static ground again, i think the inward looking xenophobes will probably dominate once more.

we come from a time of constant change, its normal for us however for humanity over eons, its not so normal.
Excellent observation! Fashion is the perfect word.

Especially true as populations age. Change and new lose their appeal.

Also true among the young, boy band crushes, desire to fit in at the cool lunch table, etc.

Then again also with the intellectual hipsters, creating the newest post-modern-pre-future lexicon crushing terminology is very similar to pecker measuring.

Create isms to fit in, and create more isms to create walls of isolation and superiority. What's not to like?
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Notion, American civil war from 1861 to 1865, changed the culture, settled things, mistaken, misunderstood.

Those mindsets can not be settled by defeat in battlefield, neither can be legislated.

There many America .. mid America, East coast America, West Coast America, Southern states , norther states .. they different people, different culture, different values, different worldview, different level of education .. some utterly atheists, others sincerely believing in "Rupture" or universe made in 7 days .. and .. everybody armed to their teeth.

Above issues are not settled by American civil war from 1861 to 1865 .. in contrary, those issues below ash.

America in war with itself, in many fronts .. racial, religion, economic, intolerance etc

Canada, beginning with a "clean sheet of paper", SM :lol:

Canada has non of the "cultural" (and many other) issues US has .. make your bet :D

.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

Why Do Cartoon Villains Speak in Foreign Accents ?
Children’s shows often use non-standard dialects to voice the "bad guys,"


Foreign accents and non-standard dialects were being used to voice all of the “bad” characters.

Gidney also noticed that Scar’s minions, the hyenas, spoke in either African American English or English with a Spanish accent.

That's how you make racist .. cartoons teach the children who the bad guys are.

All those attitudes was mainstream and normal 1900's .. that lead to Hitler episode and Jewish Saga

Did West debate why things lead to Holocaust ? why News papers were printing those degrading pictures of stereotyped Jewish pictures and articles ?

Seems, some aliens from Mars, called Nazi, invaded planet earth, killed millions, and, "disappeared".

Hollywood teaching American kids African American and Spanish are the bad guys, Trump saying Mexicans murderer and rapers, when at the same time legislating anti racism and championing human rights :lol: .. now Saudi are chairing UN woman rights panel

@ least get your facts straight before distorting them

West should debate what lead to Hitler episode .. instead, doubling down on the same mindset.

.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by kmich »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:What we call rational thought is often just a daisy chain of fallacies:

http://bigthink.com/Mind-Matters/so-wha ... ean-anyway

A classic on the topic.......
What is considered “rational” is certainly not self-evident. What is “rational” does not arise on its own accord, but derives from established assumptions. As noted in the article, attempts at categorization of what is “rational” can produce possible contradictions.

Probably best to be clear on terms here. Assumptions that are “rational” are really what is consistent with a motivational set and whether or not subsequent actions based upon these assumptions satisfy these motivations. In this sense, what is rational is not necessarily true, fair, or helpful for a civil society; it is just assumptions that satisfy individual and group motivations. Max Weber, who really started the term “rational” in his Economy and Society, categorized these sets as instrumental, epistemic, or value and emotionally based.

Difficulties arise since motivational sets and what is considered “rational” can be contradictory not only between people but within individuals. For example, our desires for safety and security can conflict with our motivations that value freedom from constraints. There is no particular reason what is “rational” for our value demands should be "rational" and fulfill instrumental and epistemic requirements. People will sacrifice their own interests and defy evidence to support the value and dignity of their beliefs, attitudes, and identities.

More immediate problems are noted in our problems of conflicted political and cultural dialogue. What we believe politically or culturally forms the interpretative frameworks of our experience in an ongoing loop of frameworks explaining experiences, which, in turn, confirm established beliefs. Beliefs determine what we consider important or not, what is congruent with our view of the world or isn’t, and what, from our motivational frameworks we consider “rational,” which is typically only a vain pretense to elevate and esteem what we wish to be the case rather than what may actually be with little to no insight on our part.

If these beliefs become tied up with personal and group identifications, conflict between groups is inevitable, since what is rational is not necessarily true, fair, or supportive of a functional civil society. The only way these can be arbitrated is through laws, traditions, rules, and related institutions (law, government, science, education, religion, the press etc.), but it requires both groups to mostly respect and accept the integrity of these. However, if these processes and institutions have been neglected and degraded by callous disregard, political hijacking, and opportunistic political attacks, these may not be accepted, so there becomes no way that these conflicts can be effectively arbitrated.

World views, attitudes, opinions, and identities dominate, and insights by individuals and groups into the narrow limitations of their understandings become increasingly rare as conflicts escalate. Identity and one’s existential sense of integrity and dignity are at stake and there can be no compromises. As Yeats, facing the divisions of the Irish uprising of his time put it, “… the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”

George Washington’s farewell address of 1796 went through numerous drafts, in large part due to suggestions made by Alexander Hamilton, provided us with a prescient warning of our current, political peril:

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty…

Or, even more banal and decadent, decaying civilizations become no more than a succession of entertaining, absurd spectacles, much like our contemporary "reality shows," such as the 2nd century Emperor Commodus parading through the streets of Rome masquerading as Hercules to take on all comers with his legendary powers such shooting the heads off of fleeing ostriches in the arena to the thrill of the crowd. After all, Trump has been endlessly entertaining in championship tweeting and dominating public attention while, thankfully, boring old Hillary Clinton was finally voted off the island in 2016. ;)
Last edited by kmich on Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Why Do Cartoon Villains Speak in Foreign Accents ?
Children’s shows often use non-standard dialects to voice the "bad guys,"


Foreign accents and non-standard dialects were being used to voice all of the “bad” characters.

Gidney also noticed that Scar’s minions, the hyenas, spoke in either African American English or English with a Spanish accent.

That's how you make racist .. cartoons teach the children who the bad guys are.

All those attitudes was mainstream and normal 1900's .. that lead to Hitler episode and Jewish Saga

Did West debate why things lead to Holocaust ? why News papers were printing those degrading pictures of stereotyped Jewish pictures and articles ?

Seems, some aliens from Mars, called Nazi, invaded planet earth, killed millions, and, "disappeared".

Hollywood teaching American kids African American and Spanish are the bad guys, Trump saying Mexicans murderer and rapers, when at the same time legislating anti racism and championing human rights :lol: .. now Saudi are chairing UN woman rights panel

@ least get your facts straight before distorting them

West should debate what lead to Hitler episode .. instead, doubling down on the same mindset.

.
The Cartoon conspiracy.
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noddy
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by noddy »

dodgy cartoons are a sign of something something something.

https://www.memri.org/reports/image-jew ... ed-classic
Last edited by noddy on Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by noddy »

kmich wrote:… the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”
indeed, however their is something else to that in terms of who justifies terrible behaviour quickly and the ones that dont, never find a reason.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:dodgy cartoons are a sign of something something something.

https://www.memri.org/reports/image-jew ... ed-classic
Is something something something Strine speak for the best culture on Earth of the last 5000 years?

White people and Cinnamons are like that everywhere you look..... better to live in a blank slate state.....
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by kmich »

Simple Minded wrote:.... better to live in a blank slate state.....
Being a "blank slate" without bias is not possible but can serve as pretense for some who wish to claim the ground of "objectivity" to serve their own vanity.

Each of us is a product of numerous conditions, biological, social, cultural, experiential, etc.. Much of the impacts these have on how we look at the world we have little and often no awareness of. None of us has perfect insight into all this unless we are somehow divine, enlightened beings, which I am anything but. Even when we become aware of our biases, if we watch closely, they still profoundly effect and blind us. Traveling and spending extensive periods in other cultures has highlighted these issues for me, but certainly has not resolved them.
noddy wrote:
kmich wrote:… the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”
indeed, however their is something else to that in terms of who justifies terrible behaviour quickly and the ones that dont, never find a reason.
Yes, of course, but there is a critical distinction to be made between justifying and understanding behavior. Being an alcoholic in recovery for 20 years now, I have had my ups and downs in making those distinctions in order to be honest about my own, hurtful jackass antics over the years, and help the people I have sponsored in AA to work their own programs.

Honest understanding of what we do and why we do it without turning them into excuses is critical to any useful insight. The problem I had was that I believed that facing my own darkness and failings was an existential threat to my own integrity as a human being. I finally realized that this was wrong, and that my integrity as a human being was not my own possession but arose from the power that created me. I came to believe that only this power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. That remains an ongoing journey.
Simple Minded

Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

Excellent posts as always kmich. As one who has been battling one's own internal demons for decades, both the genetic demon of depression and a couple of the childhood conditioning origin, I always appreciate your insights and anecdotes. Keep up the good fight. I wish you success in your battles and on your journey. You are an inspiration.

The left-right, white-black, rich-poor, nation x-nation y, den-repub battles that get some much attention, all pale in comparison to the myriad of internal battles, that I think most people engage in.

Fixing the internal should fix the external, at least in my simple mind.

Myself, I have long found the whole Buddhist/John Milton perspective of (poorly phrased, my lexicon and modes of expression usually fall short in these instances) "The out there is one thing, but what crosses our thresholds of awareness is another thing, and yet another thing is how we choose to label what we become aware of." to be both useful and comforting. Or at a minimum, pain minimizing.

"The mind is a place in itself, it can make a heaven of hell or a hell of heaven."
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

This thread on reason reminds me of the old quote on practicality. "the definition of practical depends upon what one wishes to practice." Similarly, tongue in cheek, does not the definition of rational depend upon what one wishes to rationalize?

Recently, a friend gave me a book on Yogic sutras. The similarity to Buddhism, Taoism, or Stoic Philosophy is very high. Not too surprising I think.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

noddy wrote:.

dodgy cartoons are a sign of something something something.

https://www.memri.org/reports/image-jew ... ed-classic

.

noddy, you not the guy who knows Memri.org (I know it since long time) .. Memri a Mossad front "sh*t mining" within Muslim media for rubbish .. meaning, you google search for something that, in your view, counters that NYT article I posted saying children cartoons use foreign accent for evil figures.


Iranian facts are :

Iranian nation, people, have housed, taken care, fed the Jewish people last 2600 yrs, many present Israeli were given safe home in Iran during WW2 when non of you guys did want them, Iran housed Polish and Ukrainian woman and Children :


https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10008210

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 22499.html



Please watch so that you know who you dealing with


ry5ERzEOU5c
lncnNegex7k
j7139b045cw
SC_Mi9ky-xM


And all this when Iranian people were dying from famine and were themselves in big hardship .. Jewish history in Persia does not need explanation.


The NYT I posted has nothing to do with the above .. if US government really wants to stop "racism", it should look into why Hollywood does use African and Mexican english in children cartoons for bad guys .. no wonder American President "openly" calls Mexicans rapers and criminals and proud of it.

Pfui

.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by kmich »

Simple Minded wrote:Fixing the internal should fix the external, at least in my simple mind.

Myself, I have long found the whole Buddhist/John Milton perspective of (poorly phrased, my lexicon and modes of expression usually fall short in these instances) "The out there is one thing, but what crosses our thresholds of awareness is another thing, and yet another thing is how we choose to label what we become aware of." to be both useful and comforting. Or at a minimum, pain minimizing.
“Out there” and “in here” are no more than conventions, human constructions, as are our assorted "labels." We create these names, labels, and systems to assist us in predictably navigating our world. However, they are not fundamental existential truths and are separate only as helpful conventions we create for ourselves. In a real sense we are the "external", and the "external" is the us. So...

Image

Certainly not necessarily a pain minimizing perspective, but one conducive to real responsibility and a measure of humility.
Simple Minded wrote:This thread on reason reminds me of the old quote on practicality. "the definition of practical depends upon what one wishes to practice." Similarly, tongue in cheek, does not the definition of rational depend upon what one wishes to rationalize?
Yes, our rationalizations follow from our assumptions in a mutually supportive process. However, truth is entirely a different matter and as Paul Tillich wrote in one of his sermons, the truth is not a belief or an idea, but a divine grace we embody, act, and participate in:
The truth which liberates is the truth in which we participate, which is a part of us and we a part of it. True discipleship is participation. If the real, the ultimate, the divine reality which is His being becomes our being we are in the truth that matters... distrust every claim for truth where you do not see truth united with love; and be certain that you are of the truth and that the truth has taken hold of you only when love has taken hold of you and has started to make you free from yourselves. - Paul Tillich The New Being Ch 8
Simple Minded

Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

kmich wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Fixing the internal should fix the external, at least in my simple mind.

Myself, I have long found the whole Buddhist/John Milton perspective of (poorly phrased, my lexicon and modes of expression usually fall short in these instances) "The out there is one thing, but what crosses our thresholds of awareness is another thing, and yet another thing is how we choose to label what we become aware of." to be both useful and comforting. Or at a minimum, pain minimizing.
“Out there” and “in here” are no more than conventions, human constructions, as are our assorted "labels." We create these names, labels, and systems to assist us in predictably navigating our world. However, they are not fundamental existential truths and are separate only as helpful conventions we create for ourselves. In a real sense we are the "external", and the "external" is the us. So...

Image

Certainly not necessarily a pain minimizing perspective, but one conducive to real responsibility and a measure of humility.
Simple Minded wrote:This thread on reason reminds me of the old quote on practicality. "the definition of practical depends upon what one wishes to practice." Similarly, tongue in cheek, does not the definition of rational depend upon what one wishes to rationalize?
Yes, our rationalizations follow from our assumptions in a mutually supportive process. However, truth is entirely a different matter and as Paul Tillich wrote in one of his sermons, the truth is not a belief or an idea, but a divine grace we embody, act, and participate in:
The truth which liberates is the truth in which we participate, which is a part of us and we a part of it. True discipleship is participation. If the real, the ultimate, the divine reality which is His being becomes our being we are in the truth that matters... distrust every claim for truth where you do not see truth united with love; and be certain that you are of the truth and that the truth has taken hold of you only when love has taken hold of you and has started to make you free from yourselves. - Paul Tillich The New Being Ch 8
Very well put as always kimchi! Thank you.

That, to my simple mind is the crux of the problem. We all experience current reality according to past experience.

For the person who has not had a genuine epiphany, the spiritual realm/god/angels/etc. will have the same amount of "reality content" as the person who has not interacted with Sasquatch. No demeaning intended here. Simply that, if Fred does not have experience X, experience X is not part of Fred's reality.

Always fascinates me to hear someone say "I never believed in God or Bigfoot or Angels or ET's and then one day......" Tales I have heard of those who have genuine epiphanies are extremely interesting, especially from those who were caught totally by surprise when it happened. Also of interest is the various methods through which a person may experience the divine, via music, or dance, or solitude, interaction with nature, or prayer, or church, etc.

Regarding the humans I have known personally who express religious convictions, they, as one would expect, run the entire gambit from charlatans to hypocrites to genuinely good people who both practice what they preach and preach what they practice. The first two groups seem to lack virtue, while the third group radiates virtue.

No doubt there is a free will, and much of whether an epiphany happens or not is due to the preparation and open mindedness fo the recipient, but I would imagine that additionally, God must screen the potential applicants. Sincerity must be a key factor.

I would imagine that the path to Heaven is the same as the path to Carnegie Hall, practice.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simple Minded

Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

Heracleum Persicum wrote: noddy, you not the guy who knows Memri.org (I know it since long time) .. Memri a Mossad front "sh*t mining" within Muslim media for rubbish .. meaning, you google search for something that, in your view, counters that NYT article I posted saying children cartoons use foreign accent for evil figures.....

The NYT I posted has nothing to do with the above .. if US government really wants to stop "racism", it should look into why Hollywood does use African and Mexican english in children cartoons for bad guys .. no wonder American President "openly" calls Mexicans rapers and criminals and proud of it.

Pfui

.
HP,

Canada as the blank slate nation.......cartoons...... noddy body slammed you easily on both counts. if you post silly stuff......

Perhaps racism is in the eye of the beholder? Could addiction to group identity (for either thee or me) be a form of racism?

or maybe the Mossad runs DC, Memri, Hollywood, and the NYT?

As Thomas Sowell has noted, "Black Ebonics" is nothing more than the mimicking of poor southern blacks who adopted rural southern white redneck English by association!

Maybe the cartoons are preaching "racism" against rural southern white people! You know, as part of the cure! Why NYT against curing racism?
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by noddy »

i shouldnt have posted, its too late to delete now.
kmich wrote:
Honest understanding of what we do and why we do it without turning them into excuses is critical to any useful insight. The problem I had was that I believed that facing my own darkness and failings was an existential threat to my own integrity as a human being. I finally realized that this was wrong, and that my integrity as a human being was not my own possession but arose from the power that created me. I came to believe that only this power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. That remains an ongoing journey.
somedays its easier than others and on the hard days it can be very hard indeed.
Simple Minded wrote:Excellent posts as always kmich. As one who has been battling one's own internal demons for decades, both the genetic demon of depression and a couple of the childhood conditioning origin, I always appreciate your insights and anecdotes. Keep up the good fight. I wish you success in your battles and on your journey. You are an inspiration.

The left-right, white-black, rich-poor, nation x-nation y, den-repub battles that get some much attention, all pale in comparison to the myriad of internal battles, that I think most people engage in.

Fixing the internal should fix the external, at least in my simple mind.

Myself, I have long found the whole Buddhist/John Milton perspective of (poorly phrased, my lexicon and modes of expression usually fall short in these instances) "The out there is one thing, but what crosses our thresholds of awareness is another thing, and yet another thing is how we choose to label what we become aware of." to be both useful and comforting. Or at a minimum, pain minimizing.

"The mind is a place in itself, it can make a heaven of hell or a hell of heaven."
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

This thread on reason reminds me of the old quote on practicality. "the definition of practical depends upon what one wishes to practice." Similarly, tongue in cheek, does not the definition of rational depend upon what one wishes to rationalize?

Recently, a friend gave me a book on Yogic sutras. The similarity to Buddhism, Taoism, or Stoic Philosophy is very high. Not too surprising I think.
stoicism is neat in the sense that no matter how ugly it is in your head you can remind yourself it is just going on in your head and you can make it pass.

i think everyone has noted now that rationality is in the eye of the beholder.

reason is but a tool - its the essential core in science but its only one of many approaches in politics.
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Re: Reason and Reality

Post by kmich »

Simple Minded wrote:That, to my simple mind is the crux of the problem. We all experience current reality according to past experience.

For the person who has not had a genuine epiphany, the spiritual realm/god/angels/etc. will have the same amount of "reality content" as the person who has not interacted with Sasquatch. No demeaning intended here. Simply that, if Fred does not have experience X, experience X is not part of Fred's reality.

Always fascinates me to hear someone say "I never believed in God or Bigfoot or Angels or ET's and then one day......" Tales I have heard of those who have genuine epiphanies are extremely interesting, especially from those who were caught totally by surprise when it happened. Also of interest is the various methods through which a person may experience the divine, via music, or dance, or solitude, interaction with nature, or prayer, or church, etc.

Regarding the humans I have known personally who express religious convictions, they, as one would expect, run the entire gambit from charlatans to hypocrites to genuinely good people who both practice what they preach and preach what they practice. The first two groups seem to lack virtue, while the third group radiates virtue.

No doubt there is a free will, and much of whether an epiphany happens or not is due to the preparation and open mindedness fo the recipient, but I would imagine that additionally, God must screen the potential applicants. Sincerity must be a key factor.

I would imagine that the path to Heaven is the same as the path to Carnegie Hall, practice.
I don’t know, SM, I suppose I can only speak from my own experience. As we have discussed, our past experiences form the interpretive frameworks of our ongoing encounters with the world. The encounter with the divine does not work that way. This is very difficult to explain. God speaks to us in the darkness and silence with His presence, His being. The only decision one can make in that situation is a simple yes or no to the power of faith being offered. Faith, not in the form of ideas, teachings, and understandings, but a nameless power offering us to participate in that presence, which is the Truth embodied rather than articulated, “i.e. I am the Truth and the Light….”

The great danger is claiming possession of this power through one’s own decision to “believe,” and constructing whatever frameworks one desires to explain this. This is where idolatry comes in. This can be a trap for many religious people. Assenting to believe in something may be from objective knowledge, deference to authority, credulity, or from our own desires, but none of that is faith. We often like to live under defined teachings, rules, and “beliefs.”

While our “beliefs” derived from our traditions may serve as necessary objects of faith for our contemplation, worship, and religious communities, they are not faith, and can only point to the truth but cannot embody it. As such, doubt always accompanies our incomplete objects of faith and compels us to keep open and looking for the way to God inspired by a faith that is not an object but a power giving us the confidence to continue on the path. This is a grace granted by God but a power we cannot possess.

The dangers of our age is in the cynicism, relativism, dogmatism, and indifference regarding the question of “truth.” The way to the truth is not to succumb to those inviting temptations, but to sincerely keep asking the question out of the darkness and silence of our own ignorance. That is the essence of prayer IMHO. The hard part is that the silence and darkness can hang around for a very long tome, and the answers we receive, if we are willing to hear them, while revealing our true nature and destiny in God, may not be particularly pleasant or reassuring, i.e. “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done...” Luke 24.
Simple Minded

Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:i shouldnt have posted, its too late to delete now.
You were not nasty about it, just returning tit for tat.

I for one, appreciate the balance! ;)
Simple Minded

Re: Reason and Reality

Post by Simple Minded »

kmich wrote: I don’t know, SM, I suppose I can only speak from my own experience. As we have discussed, our past experiences form the interpretive frameworks of our ongoing encounters with the world. The encounter with the divine does not work that way. This is very difficult to explain. God speaks to us in the darkness and silence with His presence, His being. The only decision one can make in that situation is a simple yes or no to the power of faith being offered. Faith, not in the form of ideas, teachings, and understandings, but a nameless power offering us to participate in that presence, which is the Truth embodied rather than articulated, “i.e. I am the Truth and the Light….”

The great danger is claiming possession of this power through one’s own decision to “believe,” and constructing whatever frameworks one desires to explain this. This is where idolatry comes in. This can be a trap for many religious people. Assenting to believe in something may be from objective knowledge, deference to authority, credulity, or from our own desires, but none of that is faith. We often like to live under defined teachings, rules, and “beliefs.”

While our “beliefs” derived from our traditions may serve as necessary objects of faith for our contemplation, worship, and religious communities, they are not faith, and can only point to the truth but cannot embody it. As such, doubt always accompanies our incomplete objects of faith and compels us to keep open and looking for the way to God inspired by a faith that is not an object but a power giving us the confidence to continue on the path. This is a grace granted by God but a power we cannot possess.

The dangers of our age is in the cynicism, relativism, dogmatism, and indifference regarding the question of “truth.” The way to the truth is not to succumb to those inviting temptations, but to sincerely keep asking the question out of the darkness and silence of our own ignorance. That is the essence of prayer IMHO. The hard part is that the silence and darkness can hang around for a very long tome, and the answers we receive, if we are willing to hear them, while revealing our true nature and destiny in God, may not be particularly pleasant or reassuring, i.e. “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done...” Luke 24.
Very well said again kmich. thanks for the personal perspective.

I agree, keep asking for the grace, without knowing whether it will be bestowed upon you, and without thinking "I am deserving of it."

and perhaps most importantly without ever thinking "Wow! That was it! Now I got it! Hey Everybody, look at me! Ain't I good person? God thinks so!"

Doubting one's judgement of "possessing it" seems to be the common trait in the good people I know. I always think kudos for them for doing the right thing without any desire to be recognized for it.

"It is perfectly possible to be Godlike even though unrecognized as such, always keep that in mind, and also remember that the needs of a happy life are very few."
Marcus Aurelius
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