Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Demon of Undoing
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

And Stalin died (more or less) peacefully in his bed of old age, after killing, raping and deporting half of Europe, ruling one of the largest empires in the history of the world.
Okay. That's one. About 106,999,999 to go ( total historic world population approx 107 billion by the one source I saw).

There will always be exceptions. Not that many Stalins around.
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Marcus
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Amen . . .

Post by Marcus »

Parodite wrote:My point was rather that what you own (temporarily and in stewardship) is not primarily a personal choice nor the product of your very own creativity. The content is a given, a product of history in our unique points in space-time. I don't think that what was given to you allows for much freedom "to do with it as you please; paint it blue, put it on a shelve, throw it away in the trash bin"; these are not what is happening. That freedom does hardly exist. What was "given" is not something you own, but rather the story of your behavior in the wider context. The web weaves. And it is changing, but maybe much slower than we think.


Works for me . . . :D
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
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Marcus
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Good point . . .

Post by Marcus »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:Whether the 'Chain of Being' was properly Christian or theologically correct - it was coherent, believable and compelling to the multitudes of late antiquity through the high middle ages. That is not a trivial notion......

I totally agree, the Greek conception of reality as a "chain of being" is not a trivial notion though it is a mistaken notion from which the Reformation freed the Medieval world and gave birth to modern science.

My reply to your post was mostly a request for clarification in the hopes of continued discussion.

Goldman is welcome to his views of Mozart, opera, music, and such, but he doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground about what constitutes a Christian. As an Orthodox Jew, how could he? As NEtR noted, he's an outsider.
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
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"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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Taboo
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Taboo »

Marcus, it was a certain outsider (a Frog, no less) who wrote the most perceptive analysis of the nature of this beast called the United States of America. Being an outsider is sometimes a privileged vantage point. I am not saying "de Goldman" is a match to the previously mentioned traveler, but it is foolish to deny even the possibility of insight to outsiders who take the time and put in the effort to understand.
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Marcus
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Vantage points . . .

Post by Marcus »

Taboo wrote:Marcus, it was a certain outsider (a Frog, no less) who wrote the most perceptive analysis of the nature of this beast called the United States of America. Being an outsider is sometimes a privileged vantage point. I am not saying "de Goldman" is a match to the previously mentioned traveler, but it is foolish to deny even the possibility of insight to outsiders who take the time and put in the effort to understand.
A "frog"? I haven't heard that one for a while . . ;)

But I agree that at a basic level Christianity is easily understood by anyone willing to contemplate the Golden Rule.

That said, no outsider can begin to understand what it means to be a Christian. Goldman's quip about "devout Christian sociopaths" is as stupid as they come and an oxymoron of the first order. There's a huge difference in contemplating and commenting on a socio/political order, e.g., the United States, Christendom, and doing the same to persons:
Who made the heart, 'tis He alone
Decidedly can try us;
He knows each chord, its various tone,
Each spring, its various bias:
Then at the balance let's be mute,
We never can adjust it;
What's done we partly may compute,
But know not what's resisted.
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
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"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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Taboo
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Taboo »

So you are claiming that the leaders of the inquisition, who spent their days torturing women, were not "true Christians"?

From Augustine onward, and with a special emphasis in Thomas Aquinas, we have the clear statement that forcing people into accepting Christianity is a good thing. Aquinas agrees that heretics should be killed, if they refuse to recant. As far as I recall, they are both considered Christian saints. If saints are not true Christians, then I guess there are no true Christians. Yet these saints advocated the torture and murder of human beings on the basis of their accepting or not accepting the dogma of Christianity.

Perhaps you wish to revise your previous statement?
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Taboo wrote:So you are claiming that the leaders of the inquisition, who spent their days torturing women, were not "true Christians"?

From Augustine onward, and with a special emphasis in Thomas Aquinas, we have the clear statement that forcing people into accepting Christianity is a good thing. Aquinas agrees that heretics should be killed, if they refuse to recant. As far as I recall, they are both considered Christian saints. If saints are not true Christians, then I guess there are no true Christians. Yet these saints advocated the torture and murder of human beings on the basis of their accepting or not accepting the dogma of Christianity.

Perhaps you wish to revise your previous statement?
Matthew Ch 7

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Yes, if Marcus will not defend his assertion, I will. Whoever heard about love and charity and thought it extended to breast rippers and iron boots, they did them not. The greatest fathers of the church, if there were a hell, would be there, and Christ said it would pan out like that, supra.

What do people think this verse means? Just small time preachers and whatnot?
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Marcus
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Spengler says too much . . .

Post by Marcus »

Taboo wrote:So you are claiming that the leaders of the inquisition, who spent their days torturing women, were not "true Christians"?

From Augustine onward, and with a special emphasis in Thomas Aquinas, we have the clear statement that forcing people into accepting Christianity is a good thing. Aquinas agrees that heretics should be killed, if they refuse to recant. As far as I recall, they are both considered Christian saints. If saints are not true Christians, then I guess there are no true Christians. Yet these saints advocated the torture and murder of human beings on the basis of their accepting or not accepting the dogma of Christianity.

Perhaps you wish to revise your previous statement?

I assume you mean my statement that "devout Christian sociopath" is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms, an impossibility? Revise it? Not at all . . why would I?

I have no way of knowing what was in the hearts of the Inquisitors and no way of judging the morals and ethics of past ages. What have such things to do with sociopathy? They were what they were in terms of the times in which they lived:

"New occasions teach new duties; Time makes ancient good uncouth;
They must upward still, and onward, who would keep abreast of Truth; . ."

We all know what a sociopath is—a person with no social conscience—and such a condition is an impossibility for a devout Christian* individual.


  • *You understand that I am differentiating between a nominal Christian and a genuine Christian:

    "A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code." —St. Paul
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Demon of Undoing
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

I go one farther. Christ laid down just a few objective rules, not open to temporary interpretation. Boiling water enemas and burning off pubic hair with brandy doesn't resemble them. Aquinas will have to deal with the chips as they fall where they may. A dog isn't good because he barks well, nor a man good because he writes/speaks well.
Ibrahim
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Ibrahim »

Taboo wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:19th century Romanticism.
Itself a nefarious and poisonous counter-reaction to the perceived rainbow unweaving of the Enlightenment.
Why "nefarious and poisonous?"
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Marcus
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Marcus »

Ibrahim wrote:
Taboo wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:19th century Romanticism.
Itself a nefarious and poisonous counter-reaction to the perceived rainbow unweaving of the Enlightenment.
Why "nefarious and poisonous?"


http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Sic ... 0674921194
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Ibrahim
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Taboo wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:19th century Romanticism.
Itself a nefarious and poisonous counter-reaction to the perceived rainbow unweaving of the Enlightenment.
Why "nefarious and poisonous?"
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Sic ... 0674921194


I dismiss Rosenzweig as an durian, and I'm already aware of his writing, so this link is not helpful.

Anyway I asked Taboo.
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Parodite
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Parodite »

Demon of Undoing wrote:I go one farther. Christ laid down just a few objective rules, not open to temporary interpretation. Boiling water enemas and burning off pubic hair with brandy doesn't resemble them. Aquinas will have to deal with the chips as they fall where they may. A dog isn't good because he barks well, nor a man good because he writes/speaks well.
Indeed. His (Jesus) is a wonderful and simple teaching, words and action in one. If he wanted it to be complicated, multi-interpretable, questionable.. i.e. too difficult for a child to understand and a torture to its mind.. Nada.
Deep down I'm very superficial
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Dioscuri »

Taboo wrote:
Dioscuri wrote:In a letter to his wife Constanze of 30 September, 1790, Mozart pens a confession:

"If the people were able to see into my heart, I would have to be almost ashamed of myself. Everything is cold to me. Cold like ice."

Don Giovanni is offered a last chance at redemption, and he rejects it to plunge into the fires of Hell. It is not only that in choosing Hell he is being more true to himself, refusing to compromise the choices he has already made.

Hell is warmer. And what Don Giovanni has never been able to abide is the coldness of solitude. He must give himself the enjoyment of flesh, and in this the eternal torment of his flesh is preferable, because at least he will have some. The truth is that he will enjoy Hell, perhaps even more than he has enjoyed life, because for those souls that are structured entirely by the need for enjoyment, life already is Hell.

In plunging into any passion, whether it be of debauchery or of devotion, men seek warmth and companionship, and the enjoyment of what it is to know recognition. The motive of all is to flee the Cold, whether into Eros or into the Love of God. genuflect, marry, or pray, you seek warmth, to be done with the Cold. And so long as you are alive, you are done with the Cold. But the Cold is not done with you.
What is it about the cold that scares you so, Discouri? There's a time and a season for everything. Now is the time for life and enjoyment. There will be a time for cold, later.

Believe me, no 89-year old sits on her deathbed saying: "I wish I had obsessed more about the Cold."

Perhaps more importantly, why do you think some people become ensnared with the obsession about the cold, while others, similarly thoughtful, do not? Just the chance draw of personality development?
Scared? Not we. Beings of the North are obliged to make friends with the Cold. It is the clinging to flesh, not the standing apart, that is the condition of God's Hell.
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Endovelico
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Endovelico »

Taboo wrote:So you are claiming that the leaders of the inquisition, who spent their days torturing women, were not "true Christians"?

From Augustine onward, and with a special emphasis in Thomas Aquinas, we have the clear statement that forcing people into accepting Christianity is a good thing. Aquinas agrees that heretics should be killed, if they refuse to recant. As far as I recall, they are both considered Christian saints. If saints are not true Christians, then I guess there are no true Christians. Yet these saints advocated the torture and murder of human beings on the basis of their accepting or not accepting the dogma of Christianity.

Perhaps you wish to revise your previous statement?
What about forcing people to renounce Christianity? And what about torturing and killing Christians to dishearten others, including women and children?
After the Shogun decided that Christianity needed to be suppressed, the Christian teachers were ordered to leave the country. They did so, however, a few decided to sneak back in, including the Augustinian Father Pedro de Zuiniga and the Dominican Father Luis Florez. They went on board a ship from Manila captained by a Japanese Christian named Joachim. The vessel, however, was captured and plundered by the Dutch who reported to the Japanese (into whose custody they were given) that there were Catholic priests on board. They were imprisoned in Hirato; however, they (along with a number of other Christians) broke out of prison with the help of another Dominican father from Manila.

All the prisoners were recaptured, and the emperor ordered the governor of Nagasaki to burn alive Captain Joachim with his entire officers and crew, the two priests, and all the other monks in this and other prisons (both foreigners and Japanese), as well as all the wives and children of those who had previously been martyred (...)

(...) The Japanese first beheaded the thirty men and women from Nagasaki, as well as twelve of their children (all of them under 10 years of age). The reason for beheading before lighting the fire, was in order to dishearten those to be burned. For the same purpose, the wood was set up so that there was distance between the wood that was initially lighted and the wood that rested under those tied to the stakes (up to 18 feet), thus giving the martyrs more time to think about their approaching painful deaths.

The burning took place over several hours, and it was claimed that Father Ouimura lasted three hours alive. (...)


Re.: The Great Martyrdom of Nagasaki (1622)
Mind you, I'm not claiming the Japanese were worse than their European counterparts. But one should be careful about accusing Christians of torture and murder, when one has such horrifying examples in one's own history...
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:But one should be careful about accusing Christians of torture and murder, when one has such horrifying examples in one's own history...

Why would this even be relevant? And who would be allowed to say anything about anything under this dubious system?
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Probably less to do with Christianity, more to do with gaijin.

And who can blame them, amirite? These crackas be illin'.
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Taboo
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Re: Spengler says too much . . .

Post by Taboo »

Marcus wrote:I assume you mean my statement that "devout Christian sociopath" is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms, an impossibility? Revise it? Not at all . . why would I?

I have no way of knowing what was in the hearts of the Inquisitors and no way of judging the morals and ethics of past ages. What have such things to do with sociopathy? They were what they were in terms of the times in which they lived:

"New occasions teach new duties; Time makes ancient good uncouth;
They must upward still, and onward, who would keep abreast of Truth; . ."
Marcus, I thought that one of the hallowed advantages of being a Christian was the belief in the existence of an immutable divinely ordained set of morals and ethics, more durable and unchanging than even Pharaoh Akhenaten's granite coffin. My knowledge of Christianity is a bit hazy, admittedly, but I thought there were some stone slabs or something with things like "Killing people is BAD" written on them, weren't there? How can you possibly say that you have "no way of judging the morals and ethics of past ages" especially since we're talking about fellow Christians?

Do your fundamental Truths change a lot that way?
We all know what a sociopath is—a person with no social conscience—and such a condition is an impossibility for a devout Christian* individual.
  • *You understand that I am differentiating between a nominal Christian and a genuine Christian:
    "A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code." —St. Paul
Yes, I understand perfectly, and I gave you literal examples of devout people, so devout that they were sanctified and are revered many centuries later, who advocated the killing of people on the basis of what they thought. Was Martin Luther not a devout Christian? He surely was. Yet he wrote the infamous "Von den Juden und ihren Lügen"
First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. ...
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ...
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.

Luther's Works, Volume 47: The Christian in Society IV (Fortress Press, 1971)
So, either advocating something close to genocide is not a marker of sociopathy, or Church Fathers like Luther were not devout enough. Which is it?
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Taboo
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Taboo »

Ibrahim wrote:
Taboo wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:19th century Romanticism.
Itself a nefarious and poisonous counter-reaction to the perceived rainbow unweaving of the Enlightenment.
Why "nefarious and poisonous?"
The answer is too complicated for a short post, yet I have no patience for a longer reply, so this will have to do, with apologies for oversimplification:

Partially because that proud rejection of reason in favor of emotion (lauded as more genuine and more alive somehow) is the root-seed from which other truly poisonous weeds grew out. Perhaps it is just me, but I see a direct link between romanticist exaltation of an imagined Teutonic past (and deprecation of rationality and Christian mercy as alien concepts), and notions of group superiority that eventually lead to National Socialism's triumph in Germany.
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Taboo
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Taboo »

Demon of Undoing wrote: Yes, if Marcus will not defend his assertion, I will. Whoever heard about love and charity and thought it extended to breast rippers and iron boots, they did them not. The greatest fathers of the church, if there were a hell, would be there, and Christ said it would pan out like that, supra.

What do people think this verse means? Just small time preachers and whatnot?
I could accept your answer, and that makes a lot of sense. But you're not Christianity, you're one heretic. I judge Christianity by their organizations and by their words and deeds. And Christianity (depending on the sect) considers men like Luther and Aquinas as true guiding beacons, and their thought has shaped organized Christianity tremendously. So while I understand your reservations, I must stand by my statement that the Church Fathers are obviously considered exemplars of Christianity by an overwhelming majority of Christian laymen and clergy.

Perhaps we must distinguish between the corrupt Christianity and the "truer" christianity.
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Taboo
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Taboo »

Endovelico wrote:
Taboo wrote:So you are claiming that the leaders of the inquisition, who spent their days torturing women, were not "true Christians"?

From Augustine onward, and with a special emphasis in Thomas Aquinas, we have the clear statement that forcing people into accepting Christianity is a good thing. Aquinas agrees that heretics should be killed, if they refuse to recant. As far as I recall, they are both considered Christian saints. If saints are not true Christians, then I guess there are no true Christians. Yet these saints advocated the torture and murder of human beings on the basis of their accepting or not accepting the dogma of Christianity.

Perhaps you wish to revise your previous statement?
What about forcing people to renounce Christianity? And what about torturing and killing Christians to dishearten others, including women and children?

Mind you, I'm not claiming the Japanese were worse than their European counterparts. But one should be careful about accusing Christians of torture and murder, when one has such horrifying examples in one's own history...
I think you are laboring under the impression that I am Japanese. Perhaps the names Taboo and Typhoon look similar? Even if I were, it would be irrelevant to the discussion. The question that Marcus put up is whether "devout Christian sociopath" is a contradiction in terms. Obviously, as the existence of Torquemada and the murderous scripts of some of the most respected Church fathers make clear to me, there are plenty of sociopaths that have been widely cheered by other Christians as "devout Christians." Remember that Torquemada is only putting into practice exactly what Aquinas preached a couple of centuries before, and lived a life of learning, piety and austerity himself.

I am more than happy to agree that for most of its history and for most Christians alive today, Christianity has very little to do with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as recorded in the New Testament. It is not for nothing that Dostoevsky wrote the parable of the Grand Inquisitor...
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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Taboo wrote:Yes, I understand perfectly, and I gave you literal examples of devout people, so devout that they were sanctified and are revered many centuries later, who advocated the killing of people on the basis of what they thought. Was Martin Luther not a devout Christian? He surely was. Yet he wrote the infamous "Von den Juden und ihren Lügen"

Not that I expect to get lucky tonight....... I just want to note that said killing was done not to establish some badass cred - simply that there were things on the line deemed that important. People may find THAT irreconcilable with Christian ethics, but we came to that now from what was understood then. Maybe we're better for it, please remember though, that everything costs..........
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
Dioscuri
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Dioscuri »

Taboo wrote: I am more than happy to agree that for most of its history and for most Christians alive today, Christianity has very little to do with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as recorded in the New Testament. It is not for nothing that Dostoevsky wrote the parable of the Grand Inquisitor...
May we ask, for what that is not nothing, was it written?
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Azrael
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Azrael »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
Spengler discovers.......
Whose gonna do the illustrations for this delightful group of children's readers?........
Mrs. Goldman has been waiting for Spengler discovers the clitoris.
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Endovelico
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Re: Spengler discovers Beautiful Evil

Post by Endovelico »

Taboo wrote: I think you are laboring under the impression that I am Japanese. Perhaps the names Taboo and Typhoon look similar?
You are right. I didn't look past the initial "T"... My apologies...
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