Anti-Protestantism . . .

[Mr. Perfect]

Exatly this.

Ninety percent of the confusion in the world comes from thinking there is a a body, a mind, and a spirit. There are no ghosts. There is body and mind/ spirit. The body is the horse the spirit rides. There is not a further monkey on the back of the guy riding the horse. That's just the man, being self- obsessed, a victim of illusion that only steps between the truth and the one living it. A useless subroutine, in info parlance, that absorbes resources.

The bible speaks of the spirit as something that comes and goes. As such, the mind cannot be the spirit.

[Demon of Undoing]

Exatly this.

Ninety percent of the confusion in the world comes from thinking there is a a body, a mind, and a spirit. There are no ghosts. There is body and mind/ spirit. The body is the horse the spirit rides. There is not a further monkey on the back of the guy riding the horse. That's just the man, being self- obsessed, a victim of illusion that only steps between the truth and the one living it. A useless subroutine, in info parlance, that absorbes resources.

The bible speaks of the spirit as something that comes and goes. As such, the mind cannot be the spirit.

The mind comes and goes. Or are people with Alzheimer's somehow responsible for their sin of, say, striking a caregiver when they can not remember their own name or why they are there? The mind is not a monolith; it has hormonal fluctuations and temporary degradations due to a million factors that make it very fluid indeed, even on a daily basis. When they stimulate a particular part of your brain, it will have effects in your experience that one would have no choice but to consider " spiritual" in tone. The mind and the spirit are one. More accurately, the mind yields the spirit in any definable way. What happens to the mind happens to the spirit, because they are the same thing.

[Taboo]

Exatly this.

Ninety percent of the confusion in the world comes from thinking there is a a body, a mind, and a spirit. There are no ghosts.[/qutoe]
So far so good.

There is body and mind/ spirit. The body is the horse the spirit rides. There is not a further monkey on the back of the guy riding the horse. That's just the man, being self- obsessed, a victim of illusion that only steps between the truth and the one living it. A useless subroutine, in info parlance, that absorbes resources.

So you're rejecting ... um ... trialism in favor of an equally magical belief in dualism?

What new information is gained, what verifiable predictions can we make by positing dualism (or any n-ism >1) instead of stating that body and mind are unity? As you yourself said, for every thought, there's a neural firing sequence, for a particular brain area you stimulate, there's a subjective perceptual artefact. I can predict that. What does dualism gain me?

[Nonc Hilaire]

Exatly this.

Ninety percent of the confusion in the world comes from thinking there is a a body, a mind, and a spirit. There are no ghosts. There is body and mind/ spirit. The body is the horse the spirit rides. There is not a further monkey on the back of the guy riding the horse. That's just the man, being self- obsessed, a victim of illusion that only steps between the truth and the one living it. A useless subroutine, in info parlance, that absorbes resources.

The bible speaks of the spirit as something that comes and goes. As such, the mind cannot be the spirit.

The mind comes and goes. Or are people with Alzheimer's somehow responsible for their sin of, say, striking a caregiver when they can not remember their own name or why they are there? The mind is not a monolith; it has hormonal fluctuations and temporary degradations due to a million factors that make it very fluid indeed, even on a daily basis. When they stimulate a particular part of your brain, it will have effects in your experience that one would have no choice but to consider " spiritual" in tone. The mind and the spirit are one. More accurately, the mind yields the spirit in any definable way. What happens to the mind happens to the spirit, because they are the same thing.

I think being less discriminating is not conducive to analytical thinking. African traditions separate personality from mind, al-Ghazzali had a five part definition of existence and Freud's description of the subconscious is still valuable. Close observance should be the rule no matter if your primary approach is poetic, scientific or religious. Lumping mind and spirit together sounds like a dismissive plea for less attentive observation.

[Demon of Undoing]

Exatly this.

Ninety percent of the confusion in the world comes from thinking there is a a body, a mind, and a spirit. There are no ghosts.[/qutoe]
So far so good.

There is body and mind/ spirit. The body is the horse the spirit rides. There is not a further monkey on the back of the guy riding the horse. That's just the man, being self- obsessed, a victim of illusion that only steps between the truth and the one living it. A useless subroutine, in info parlance, that absorbes resources.

So you're rejecting ... um ... trialism in favor of an equally magical belief in dualism?

What new information is gained, what verifiable predictions can we make by positing dualism (or any n-ism >1) instead of stating that body and mind are unity? As you yourself said, for every thought, there's a neural firing sequence, for a particular brain area you stimulate, there's a subjective perceptual artefact. I can predict that. What does dualism gain me?

It's not a hard dualism, so much as a practical allowance for awareness. That's mind. Maybe all determined by body ( neural architecture and whatnot), but we inherently think of what comes out of our grey matter differently than what comes out of, say, the knee. More a convention, really, otherwise we have to deal with ourselves as unaware globs. Hard to get the laundry done right like that.

And then there's the hard problem of consciousness.

[Enki]

Exatly this.

Ninety percent of the confusion in the world comes from thinking there is a a body, a mind, and a spirit. There are no ghosts.[/qutoe]
So far so good.

There is body and mind/ spirit. The body is the horse the spirit rides. There is not a further monkey on the back of the guy riding the horse. That's just the man, being self- obsessed, a victim of illusion that only steps between the truth and the one living it. A useless subroutine, in info parlance, that absorbes resources.

So you're rejecting ... um ... trialism in favor of an equally magical belief in dualism?

What new information is gained, what verifiable predictions can we make by positing dualism (or any n-ism >1) instead of stating that body and mind are unity? As you yourself said, for every thought, there's a neural firing sequence, for a particular brain area you stimulate, there's a subjective perceptual artefact. I can predict that. What does dualism gain me?

I like the way you are heading, but I do think that as a matter of perception, such dualism is indeed a very real thing.

[Taboo]

Reminds me of the famous quip about the fundamental properties of the universe being gravitational mass, electroweak charge, quark-gluon color-charge and ... cuteness.

[Enki]

Reminds me of the famous quip about the fundamental properties of the universe being gravitational mass, electroweak charge, quark-gluon color-charge and ... cuteness.

So much of our ideas come from the notion that perception is not 'real'. But perception is indeed VERY real and a fundamental part of the physical universe.

[Taboo]

Reminds me of the famous quip about the fundamental properties of the universe being gravitational mass, electroweak charge, quark-gluon color-charge and ... cuteness.

So much of our ideas come from the notion that perception is not 'real'. But perception is indeed VERY real and a fundamental part of the physical universe.

gravitational mass, electroweak charge, quark-gluon color-charge and ... CUTENESS.

You're right, when I use capital letters, it seems much more convincing.

[Enki]

Reminds me of the famous quip about the fundamental properties of the universe being gravitational mass, electroweak charge, quark-gluon color-charge and ... cuteness.

So much of our ideas come from the notion that perception is not 'real'. But perception is indeed VERY real and a fundamental part of the physical universe.

gravitational mass, electroweak charge, quark-gluon color-charge and ... CUTENESS.

You're right, when I use capital letters, it seems much more convincing.

He says from the machine made out of matter given form by being bent to perception by thousands of years of industrious innovation.

(Bounces electrons off of your retina from miles away.)

[Demon of Undoing]

You people just wait until I make my first star go supernova. You'll respect cuteness then, you ungrateful bastids.

[Enki]

You people just wait until I make my first star go supernova. You'll respect cuteness then, you ungrateful bastids.

I want to make a star out of a Nebula.

[Mr. Perfect]

Exatly this.

Ninety percent of the confusion in the world comes from thinking there is a a body, a mind, and a spirit. There are no ghosts. There is body and mind/ spirit. The body is the horse the spirit rides. There is not a further monkey on the back of the guy riding the horse. That's just the man, being self- obsessed, a victim of illusion that only steps between the truth and the one living it. A useless subroutine, in info parlance, that absorbes resources.

The bible speaks of the spirit as something that comes and goes. As such, the mind cannot be the spirit.

The mind comes and goes. Or are people with Alzheimer's somehow responsible for their sin of, say, striking a caregiver when they can not remember their own name or why they are there? The mind is not a monolith; it has hormonal fluctuations and temporary degradations due to a million factors that make it very fluid indeed, even on a daily basis. When they stimulate a particular part of your brain, it will have effects in your experience that one would have no choice but to consider " spiritual" in tone. The mind and the spirit are one. More accurately, the mind yields the spirit in any definable way. What happens to the mind happens to the spirit, because they are the same thing.

No they aren't. Why have two words for the same thing.

[Taboo]

Reminds me of the famous quip about the fundamental properties of the universe being gravitational mass, electroweak charge, quark-gluon color-charge and ... cuteness.

So much of our ideas come from the notion that perception is not 'real'. But perception is indeed VERY real and a fundamental part of the physical universe.

gravitational mass, electroweak charge, quark-gluon color-charge and ... CUTENESS.

You're right, when I use capital letters, it seems much more convincing.

He says from the machine made out of matter given form by being bent to perception by thousands of years of industrious innovation.

(Bounces electrons off of your retina from miles away.)

RE: cuteness.

Was reminded of Foglio and Pollotta's Illegal Aliens, where the humans land on a planet inhabited by sentient insects, and see a movie advertisement showing a human carrying off a bug in a delicate chiffon dress. Just thought I'd mention that.

hint: it wasn't THIS movie advertisement.

[Typhoon]

All would be star designers should first read

The Highest Possible Level of Development

in

The Cyberiad

by Stanislaw Lem

[Demon of Undoing]

All would be star designers should first read

The Highest Possible Level of Development

in

The Cyberiad

by Stanislaw Lem

I'm on it.

No they aren't. Why have two words for the same thing

.

Why assume people from a bronze/iron age culture knew everything about neurology?

More to the point, your literalism and thinking backwards is showing. The use of pneuma, mostly translated as soul, is used in context of someone's life force or literally breath. It is also used as synecdoche to have a smaller part represent a whole. The pseuche, which is the word usually rendered as mind, is all the thoughts, passions and feelings ( though the Hebrews did think that the reins of the passion, the self discipline, resided in the kidneys. Like I said, bronze age). It is only once you get those two things entangled, as you would if you spoke English and blurred the meanings when it fit a paradigm you were told was real, that problems arise. At that point, you might think they are separate entities with different existences.

Here, dig this.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Exatly this.

Ninety percent of the confusion in the world comes from thinking there is a a body, a mind, and a spirit. There are no ghosts.[/qutoe]
So far so good.

There is body and mind/ spirit. The body is the horse the spirit rides. There is not a further monkey on the back of the guy riding the horse. That's just the man, being self- obsessed, a victim of illusion that only steps between the truth and the one living it. A useless subroutine, in info parlance, that absorbes resources.

So you're rejecting ... um ... trialism in favor of an equally magical belief in dualism?

What new information is gained, what verifiable predictions can we make by positing dualism (or any n-ism >1) instead of stating that body and mind are unity? As you yourself said, for every thought, there's a neural firing sequence, for a particular brain area you stimulate, there's a subjective perceptual artefact. I can predict that. What does dualism gain me?

It's not a hard dualism, so much as a practical allowance for awareness. That's mind. Maybe all determined by body ( neural architecture and whatnot), but we inherently think of what comes out of our grey matter differently than what comes out of, say, the knee. More a convention, really, otherwise we have to deal with ourselves as unaware globs. Hard to get the laundry done right like that.

And then there's the hard problem of consciousness.

How exactly does one determine what comes out of the knee?

[Demon of Undoing]

With a stopwatch, a squat rack , or by the opening skip kick in the first round. If it works, knee is good.