Anti-Protestantism . . .

[Marcus]

. . . the Reformation took this simple message and mucked it up - well done......

I encounter this sort of attitude in one form or another often enough to cause me to wonder where it's coming from and why. Often it's like this—some non-specific, vague, critical reference to the Reformation itself, other times it's criticism of or disdain for Luther, and sometimes it's Calvin, who seems to come in for special treatment. Over at ATOL*, ww's hatred of Calvin was positively vitriolic, nor did the moderators over there enforce the rules to the slightest degree to hinder post after post of the most vile abuse of Calvin I ever heard.

But such stuff pops up other places from time to time as well. Anyone have similar experiences? Where does such material come from and why? When I was a kid, I recall my little Roman Catholic friends telling me that all Protestants were going to hell 'cause their priest told them there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.

I thought we'd moved past such attitudes? Is this anti-Reformation/Luther/Calvin stuff a Roman Catholic oddity, or does it have other sources?

• *Just checked for the heck of it, and they have 20 pages of posts mentioning Calvin: http://spengler.atimes.net/search.php?keywords=Calvin and 36 pages mentioning Reformation: http://spengler.atimes.net/search.php?s ... n&start=80

[Ibrahim]

Certainly every non-Protestant has some kind of theological disagreement with Protestantism by definition, though this is not in and of itself anti-Protestant.


My opinion on Calvin is based on a side-by-side comparison between the Reformation in Geneva and Zurich, and I strongly prefer the Zurich model and Zwingli's reforms to those of Calvin and the Consistory in Geneva. That is simply a matter of preference.

[Marcus]

Certainly every non-Protestant has some kind of theological disagreement with Protestantism by definition, though this is not in and of itself anti-Protestant.

My opinion on Calvin is based on a side-by-side comparison between the Reformation in Geneva and Zurich, and I strongly prefer the Zurich model and Zwingli's reforms to those of Calvin and the Consistory in Geneva. That is simply a matter of preference.

Nicely said, and, as you note, such preferences in no way constitute anti-Protestantism. Heck, even those of us in the Reformed camp have our preferences.

But that's not what I mean . . I mean the kind of finger-pointing blame quoted in the OP and the kind of vicious swill that typified ATOL. Where does it come from and why?

[Demon of Undoing]

I'm just not sure what paradise Luther trashed. I read this really good book one time about Europe under Catholicism. It had pictures and everything. Didnt seem like any sort of Utopia to me.

[Marcus]

I'm just not sure what paradise Luther trashed. I read this really good book one time about Europe under Catholicism. It had pictures and everything. Didnt seem like any sort of Utopia to me.

My impression is that a lot of the anger directed at Luther et al. is really about destroying the political and ecclesiastical power of the Roman See, but it would seem they didn't need much help in that regard. Rome itself had fractured the Christian world 500 years before Luther when the Bishop of Rome excommunicated the Bishop of Constantinople, thus sundering the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church into the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox denominations. Trouble over church reform had been brewing in the West at least since the time of Wycliffe, over 100 years before Luther.

Someone once said that the instant Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg, one-third of Europe became Lutheran. All that was needed to close the deal was for Rome to excommunicate Luther as they did earlier to Eastern Christians.

Who knows? That might explain why some dislike Luther and the Reformation in general, but what accounts for the special slime reserved for John Calvin?

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

. . . the Reformation took this simple message and mucked it up - well done......

I encounter this sort of attitude in one form or another often enough to cause me to wonder where it's coming from and why. Often it's like this—some non-specific, vague, critical reference to the Reformation itself, other times it's criticism of or disdain for Luther, and sometimes it's Calvin, who seems to come in for special treatment. Over at ATOL*, ww's hatred of Calvin was positively vitriolic, nor did the moderators over there enforce the rules to the slightest degree to hinder post after post of the most vile abuse of Calvin I ever heard.

But such stuff pops up other places from time to time as well. Anyone have similar experiences? Where does such material come from and why? When I was a kid, I recall my little Roman Catholic friends telling me that all Protestants were going to hell 'cause their priest told them there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.

I thought we'd moved past such attitudes? Is this anti-Reformation/Luther/Calvin stuff a Roman Catholic oddity, or does it have other sources?

• *Just checked for the heck of it, and they have 20 pages of posts mentioning Calvin: http://spengler.atimes.net/search.php?keywords=Calvin and 36 pages mentioning Reformation: http://spengler.atimes.net/search.php?s ... n&start=80

I think you are being extra-sensitive here Marcus, and I'm not sure what waxwing has to do with this discussion.

Saying the Reformation "mucked" things up isn't even a statement directed at Protestants only. Has there, or hasn't there been much confusion over justification, sanctification and soteriology for the last 500 years in Western Christianity? People are going to have strong disagreements.

It's like earlier in the same thread you claimed science grew out of Protestantism.

Okay: it can be defended, it can be criticized; it is a point of disagreement.

[Marcus]

I think you are being extra-sensitive here Marcus, and I'm not sure what waxwing has to do with this discussion.

Saying the Reformation "mucked" things up isn't even a statement directed at Protestants only. Has there, or hasn't there been much confusion over justification, sanctification and soteriology for the last 500 years in Western Christianity? People are going to have strong disagreements.

It's like earlier in the same thread you claimed science grew out of Protestantism.

Okay: it can be defended, it can be criticized; it is a point of disagreement.

Maybe so, Nap, but I doubt it . . I've heard more than a little in that vein. Nor was ww the particular problem, the problem was that his slime got a free pass as does and did his narcissistic, mystic drivel . . who knows? Just curious, that's all . . I like to have these sorts of things rationalized in my mind . . laid to rest so I can bury them as it were.

Got to disagree that the Reformation "mucked" anything up believing as I do that it was Providential, that the Roman church would have long since disappeared without it, and that modern science had its birth in the freeing of the individual conscience.

As you note, such things are merely points of disagreement. Thanks very much for your explanation here and on the other thread.

Best wishes . . .

[Hoosiernorm]

I'm just not sure what paradise Luther trashed. I read this really good book one time about Europe under Catholicism. It had pictures and everything. Didnt seem like any sort of Utopia to me.

Which one? I think there's like three or four of them..

[Ibrahim]

Before I go and sound too reasonable, I will say that there are strains of Protestant Christianity that I am "anti." I have a very low opinion of American Evangelicalism, for example. But I think this kind of specificity is different. "Protestantism" is too large a tent.

To use the obvious comparison, I understand having antipathy for Wahhabism, which is a specific sect, more than antipathy to Islam generally. Same principle here with Evangelicalism as opposed to Protestantism generally.



Regarding SpengFor, the hostility seemed mostly directed at Mainline Protestant churches, because although they are Christians (which Spengler thinks is good) they hold liberal views on social issues and are fairly ecumenical, which Spengler loathes. So in his world they represent a kind of fifth column that will bless abortions and hand Israel and America over to Arab terrorists in the same of the golden calf called "tolerance."

[Mr. Perfect]

Before I go and sound too reasonable, I will say that there are strains of Protestant Christianity that I am "anti." I have a very low opinion of American Evangelicalism, for example.

Well. That would be racist.

[Marcus]

. . Regarding SpengFor, the hostility seemed mostly directed at Mainline Protestant churches, because . . they hold liberal views on social issues and are fairly ecumenical, which Spengler loathes. So in his world they represent a kind of fifth column that will bless abortions and hand Israel and America over to Arab terrorists in the same of the golden calf called "tolerance."

Most evangelicals of my acquaintance consider mainline Protestantism about as useless as tits on a boar hog.

[noddy]

i always get rowan williams and rowan atkinson confoozled..

[Demon of Undoing]

i always get rowan williams and rowan atkinson confoozled..

The Black Adder wears hats that are less silly.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

How many things are wrong with the reformation...... uh..... let's see.......

Took the crucifix and turned it into the cross - the Body of Christ is an unseemly object, in His Name, who knew?..........

Curbed the people's enthusiasm for reveling in the Word whenever it could - no graven images, no pageantry, no stained glass and no incense. That sort of thing......

Turned His Mother out of His house and bade Her to be silent and not to attract undue attention to Herself.......

Chose mediocrity over excellence, reconciliation over justice, pedantry over passion......

There's probably more but, ehn...... there's a few.......

[Hoosiernorm]

I'm sorry Lzz I still don't get the veneration of Mary aspect of the big "C". I can appreciate so many things about "C" on so many levels that it often pains me to still remain Lutheran. Largely due to the limited ability of the big "L" to articulate itself within the modern era with any level of either sophistication or relevance. I mean I sort of like that for a lot of folks it remains the basis of local civility and local custom but it seems to lose it's power at the edge of the parking lot for some reason. On a good day it extends to the city limits but that's only if there's enough disposable income and lavender seems to be going everyone's way. I love the story of the different saints and the lives that they lived as testaments to the power of love and understanding but I still can't pray to Mary and honestly tell myself that I'm serving God's will with that action.

[noddy]

as an outsider i find the certainty in lack of certainty in mainline protestenism refreshing and humble but once the confidence went out of it due to the inability to rationalise colonialism/empire with the mission statements it did leave it a hollow and dry husk with little to attract new members.

your never going to attract the young or the lost without energy and confidence... hence the rise of the evangelicals.

[Ibrahim]

I'm sorry Lzz I still don't get the veneration of Mary aspect of the big "C". I can appreciate so many things about "C" on so many levels that it often pains me to still remain Lutheran. Largely due to the limited ability of the big "L" to articulate itself within the modern era with any level of either sophistication or relevance. I mean I sort of like that for a lot of folks it remains the basis of local civility and local custom but it seems to lose it's power at the edge of the parking lot for some reason. On a good day it extends to the city limits but that's only if there's enough disposable income and lavender seems to be going everyone's way. I love the story of the different saints and the lives that they lived as testaments to the power of love and understanding but I still can't pray to Mary and honestly tell myself that I'm serving God's will with that action.

One of the common secular historical arguments is that the cult of Mary served the purpose of helping to channel various forms of pagan goddess worship into an accepted part of Christian religion. This was important/useful when the Christianized Romans (or Romanized Christians) were trying to convert their entire European, North African, and Near Eastern empire.

By the time the Reformation rolls around, the native religions of Europe have been destroyed so utterly that there is no need to cater to pagan sensibilities, so the cult of Mary is removed from Protestant Christianity as a distraction from God. Along with all the statues and frescoes and so on.

[Marcus]

How many things are wrong with the reformation...... uh..... let's see.......

Took the crucifix and turned it into the cross - the Body of Christ is an unseemly object, in His Name, who knew?..........

Curbed the people's enthusiasm for reveling in the Word whenever it could - no graven images, no pageantry, no stained glass and no incense. That sort of thing......

Turned His Mother out of His house and bade Her to be silent and not to attract undue attention to Herself.......

Chose mediocrity over excellence, reconciliation over justice, pedantry over passion......

There's probably more but, ehn...... there's a few.......

Alternatives to a sectarian spirit, myopia, and the abuse of the traditions and beliefs of fellow Christians:

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Touchstone is a Christian journal, conservative in doctrine and eclectic in content, with editors and readers from each of the three great divisions of Christendom—Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox.

The mission of the journal and its publisher, The Fellowship of St. James, is to provide a place where Christians of various backgrounds can speak with one another on the basis of shared belief in the fundamental doctrines of the faith as revealed in Holy Scripture and summarized in the ancient creeds of the Church.

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Launched in September 1995, Books & Culture is a bimonthly review that engages the contemporary world from a Christian perspective. Every issue of Books & Culture contains in-depth reviews of books that merit critical attention, as well as shorter notices of significant new titles. While the magazine's center is Christian, we seek common ground with like-minded souls from other communities of faith.

[Parodite]

Catholicism a more visual form of art, reformed more auditory? The senses are at war when there is no brain to use them as source material to make a cake.

[Marcus]

The senses are at war when there is no brain to use them as source material to make a cake*.

Very good! Is that yours, or did you hear it elsewhere? Love it . . .

But few Roman Catholics and very few Reformed Christians are abusive of other Christian denominations. The great majority of us have outgrown such Medievalism.

• *That's why ATOL's cake tastes like ****.

[Torchwood]

I'm just not sure what paradise Luther trashed. I read this really good book one time about Europe under Catholicism. It had pictures and everything. Didnt seem like any sort of Utopia to me.

My impression is that a lot of the anger directed at Luther et al. is really about destroying the political and ecclesiastical power of the Roman See, but it would seem they didn't need much help in that regard. Rome itself had fractured the Christian world 500 years before Luther when the Bishop of Rome excommunicated the Bishop of Constantinople, thus sundering the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church into the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox denominations. Trouble over church reform had been brewing in the West at least since the time of Wycliffe, over 100 years before Luther.

Someone once said that the instant Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg, one-third of Europe became Lutheran. All that was needed to close the deal was for Rome to excommunicate Luther as they did earlier to Eastern Christians.

Who knows? That might explain why some dislike Luther and the Reformation in general, but what accounts for the special slime reserved for John Calvin?

The survival of Luther and his creed may have had more to do with the fact that German princes liked the idea of taking over monastic lands. Ironically Wycliffe and Hus were not radical enough - they wanted to reform Holy Mother Church, not break with it.

Anyway, history is history. Alph (whose absence is lamented) made a persuasive case on the Spengler forum that we are all to some degree cultural Protestants now, although I would argue that the French revolution and its aftermath had some very post-Catholic traits, with earthly salvation through the state replacing HMC.

[Marcus]

The survival of Luther and his creed may have had more to do with the fact that German princes liked the idea of taking over monastic lands. Ironically Wycliffe and Hus were not radical enough - they wanted to reform Holy Mother Church, not break with it.

Anyway, history is history. Alph (whose absence is lamented) made a persuasive case on the Spengler forum that we are all to some degree cultural Protestants now, although I would argue that the French revolution and its aftermath had some very post-Catholic traits, with earthly salvation through the state replacing HMC.

There's no doubt that Luther's survival wasn't hurt by Frederick, and Luther, like Wycliffe and Hus before him, had only the reform of the Church in mind until Leo tried to play hardball. It all went down- or uphill from there, depending on one's view. I doubt that the German princes had the acquisition of Church lands in mind at the time, though Henry VIII surely did later in England. I don't think any of the players—not Luther and not the politicians—had any way of reckoning the immensity of the ecclesiastical and social cataclysm that lay ahead. To cop a phrase from Luther himself, "Events are in the saddle, and we are ridden."

Your last claim—that we're all to some degree cultural Protestants—is on the money. The American Revolution is the Reformation written in politics, and not the world nor the Christian church have been the same since.

Nicely noted . .

[Ibrahim]

Alph... made a persuasive case on the Spengler forum that we are all to some degree cultural Protestants now,

Not very persuasive at all. A statement either wrong or meaningless, depending on the weather.

[Ibrahim]

Your last claim—that we're all to some degree cultural Protestants—is on the money. The American Revolution is the Reformation written in politics, and not the world nor the Christian church have been the same since.

The American revolution was an Enlightenment project, plain and simple. Not only is this borne out by the intellectual heavyweights among the "Founding Fathers," but the Classical nomenclature and reconstructed institutions are a dead giveaway.

[Marcus]

Your last claim—that we're all to some degree cultural Protestants—is on the money. The American Revolution is the Reformation written in politics, and not the world nor the Christian church have been the same since.

The American revolution was an Enlightenment project, . .

You wish . . .