Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a wife

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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Ibrahim wrote:
That my initial statement is correct is clear. The text and meaning is plain, even among the dozen translations you provided. The fact that this is dragging on is only due to you.


I know this is hard for you to understand, but saying this over and over again doesn't make it so. Show it.

I've posted several translations, referred to people who've read the text differently, posted the Hebrew words used and looked into the Latin text. What you think of that doesn't matter, but it sure seems like I'm making a case while you're sticking your hands in your ears and going "nut-uh".
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Ibrahim wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:If the author was to imply forced rape, they would've used chazaq, or even laqach which is used other situations (like the Rape of Dinah) where it is made explicit that a man has taken hold of a woman and has humiliated her.
We've got a dozen translations that you presented, presumably by people who know a thing or two about Hebrew, and they produced English renderings that in every example but one clearly imply rape.

Tinker rightly points out that this this society raping an unwed woman was technically a greater offense to her father than to her, but act is the same.
And that's nice, but will you please show me where we are to assume a rape has occurred?
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Ibrahim »

Right here:

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; KJV

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not espoused, and taking her, lie with her, and the matter come to judgment: DOUAY-RHEIMS

If a man shall find a damsel [that is] a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; WEBSTER BIBLE

If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; WORLD ENGLISH BIBLE

When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found, YLT

When a man findeth a damsel that is a virgin who is not betrothed, and layeth hold of her and lieth with her, and they are found, ROTHERHAM

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; JPS 1917 OT

"If a man find a damsel who is a virgin who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her, and they be found, THIRD MILLENNIUM

If a man find a damsel, a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found, DARBY

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; AMV

If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, RSV

If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, NRSV

If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, NASB

If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, ESV

If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her and they are found, AMPLIFIED

If the sex was consensual it would be unnecessary to add anything to "lies with her." The additional detail of "seizes" or "lays hold of" implies force.
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Ibrahim wrote:
If the sex was consensual it would be unnecessary to add anything to "lies with her." The additional detail of "seizes" or "lays hold of" implies force.
Where a male patriarch possessed people and "taking hold of" (like the Latin implies) is claiming (ignoring) that patriarchal authority, which doesn't suggest force at all. And where force is suggested, other words are used, like in the Rape of Dinah where laqach (to take) and chazaq (to strengthen) are used.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Ibrahim »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
If the sex was consensual it would be unnecessary to add anything to "lies with her." The additional detail of "seizes" or "lays hold of" implies force.
Where a male patriarch possessed people and "taking hold of" (like the Latin implies) is claiming (ignoring) that patriarchal authority, which doesn't suggest force at all. And where force is suggested, other words are used, like in the Rape of Dinah where laqach (to take) and chazaq (to strengthen) are used.

So in your view the words refer to theft (as in theft of the virgin from her father)? If this were the case then consent isn't relevant one way or the other and rape is at best only a possibility in these scenarios.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Enki »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:And that's nice, but will you please show me where we are to assume a rape has occurred?
I gave the only rebuttal to this question that actually matters and you ignored it.

The passage is meant to cover ANY penetration of an unwed girl. Whether or not she was coerced is irrelevant.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Enki »

Ibrahim wrote:If the sex was consensual it would be unnecessary to add anything to "lies with her." The additional detail of "seizes" or "lays hold of" implies force.

No it doesn't. It merely implies possession. The manner or gruffness of that possession is immaterial. The law is the same. If she seduces you sweetly by the watering hole, the offense is the same. If you slap her across the jaw and bend her over the tree stump, the offense is the same.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Well, I know which one I prefer.

Smack my ass and call me Susan!
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Marriage by capture was once the most common form of the institution. There are man steps between there and courtly love, I don't know why people get so upset about the fact that mankind didn't make the leap in one bound.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by anderson »

To perhaps help facilitate a deeper, more context based discussion:
Chapter 22
Moses sets forth laws pertaining to lost property, wearing of proper clothes, caring for interests of others, marrying virgins, and sexual immorality.

1 Thou shalt not see thy abrother’s ox or his sheep go bastray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother.

2 And if thy brother abe not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again.

3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all alost thing of thy brother’s, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.

4 ¶Thou shalt not see thy brother’s ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely ahelp him to lift them up again.

5 ¶The woman shall not awear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

6 ¶If a bird’s nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the adam sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the bdam with the young:

7 But thou shalt in any wise let the dam go, and take the young to thee; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest aprolong thy days.

8 ¶When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a abattlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

9 ¶Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with adivers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.

10 ¶Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.

11 ¶Thou shalt not wear a garment of adivers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

12 ¶Thou shalt make thee afringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself.

13 ¶If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and ahate her,

14 And agive occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a bmaid:

15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

16 And the damsel’s father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

19 And they shall aamerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil bname upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she adie: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

22 ¶If a man be found lying with a woman amarried to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

23 ¶If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto aan husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she acried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 ¶But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and alie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, aeven so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

28 ¶If a man find a damsel that is a avirgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his awife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

30 ¶A man shall not take his afather’s wife, nor bdiscover his father’s skirt.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Bringing this forward...... because it's relevant.....'>........
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by anderson »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:Bringing this forward...... because it's relevant.....'>........
Ah Spengler. Still as hopelessly FOS as always.
So now he's shilling for bloating the books with totally redundant legal statutes. Good one, Chet.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Ibrahim »

lizz wrote:Bringing this forward...... because it's relevant.....'>........
This is Spengler is his most malicious propaganda mode. A bunch of pundits and eminent legal scholars, conservatives even, denounce the "anti-Sharia movement" as advocating unconstitutional religious discrimination in order to "protect" against imaginary/hypothetical Islamic laws being implemented in America, and Spengler's defense of the precisely the kind of hollow propaganda he produces and supports is "yeah, but Muslims all beat their wives." An argument so bad that it's been the cliche of a bad legal argument since Cicero's day.



Hey DoU, what are your observations about domestic disturbances from your days with the police? Lot of guys with turbans or skinny white guys on meth?


Also Lizz, this isn't relevant at all. Tinker brought up an OT verse. Now if we Spengler were talking about spousal abuse within the ultra-Orthodox or Settler communities, that would be relevant to an OT verse. But I'm sure those guys are regular Valentinos.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Ibrahim wrote:
lizz wrote:Bringing this forward...... because it's relevant.....'>........
This is Spengler is his most malicious propaganda mode. A bunch of pundits and eminent legal scholars, conservatives even, denounce the "anti-Sharia movement" as advocating unconstitutional religious discrimination in order to "protect" against imaginary/hypothetical Islamic laws being implemented in America, and Spengler's defense of the precisely the kind of hollow propaganda he produces and supports is "yeah, but Muslims all beat their wives." An argument so bad that it's been the cliche of a bad legal argument since Cicero's day.



Hey DoU, what are your observations about domestic disturbances from your days with the police? Lot of guys with turbans or skinny white guys on meth?


Also Lizz, this isn't relevant at all. Tinker brought up an OT verse. Now if we Spengler were talking about spousal abuse within the ultra-Orthodox or Settler communities, that would be relevant to an OT verse. But I'm sure those guys are regular Valentinos.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Typhoon »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:Bringing this forward...... because it's relevant.....'>........
When did Spenglerman stop beating his wife?
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Ibrahim wrote:Also Lizz, this isn't relevant at all. Tinker brought up an OT verse. Now if we Spengler were talking about spousal abuse within the ultra-Orthodox or Settler communities, that would be relevant to an OT verse. But I'm sure those guys are regular Valentinos.
It's relevant because David says quite succinctly that Torah, or Written Law, can be re-interpreted and even put into abeyance by the Oral Law as codified through the Mishnah and Talmud. Indeed, the Torah can't even be assumed coherent without the oral tradition. This in stark contrast with Islam. And David doesn't give a jolly fat one about the secret lives of the Haradim. His focus is entirely how American jurisprudence should deal with the anomaly of Sharia Law and remain consistent with its practices and principles.......

Enki wrote:Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
So what is Jesus's stance on forcing a woman to marry her rapist?
David P. Goldman wrote:As I noted elsewhere, Jewish Oral Law has the authority to interpret and even put into abeyance parts of the Written Law (classic example is Deut. 21:18-21). No such possibility in Islam.
http://pjmedia.com/spengler/2012/06/14/ ... /#comments
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Ibrahim »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Also Lizz, this isn't relevant at all. Tinker brought up an OT verse. Now if we Spengler were talking about spousal abuse within the ultra-Orthodox or Settler communities, that would be relevant to an OT verse. But I'm sure those guys are regular Valentinos.
It's relevant because David says quite succinctly that Torah, or Written Law, can be re-interpreted and even put into abeyance by the Oral Law as codified through the Mishnah and Talmud.
Why should anyone care what this totally unqualified former LarRouchite thinks he knows about the Torah? You brought it up for the same reason he brought it up.


Indeed, the Torah can't even be assumed coherent without the oral tradition. This in stark contrast with Islam.


This is a lie. Islamic commentary on the Quran is enormous and highly regarded, and historically speaking the expertise of Islamic scholars and jurists was largely judged on their mastery of, and contributions to, this body of commentary.

And David doesn't give a jolly fat one about the secret lives of the Haradim.
Rather, he ignores it because it is a massive humiliation to his pretenses of Jewish supremacism and finger-pointing a his straw-man version of Islam.


His focus is entirely how American jurisprudence should deal with the anomaly of Sharia Law and remain consistent with its practices and principles.......
Another lie. There is no anomaly, Spengler is raving against imaginary laws that don't exist in America and that he is making up to justify other discriminatory laws he wishes existed.


David P. Goldman wrote:As I noted elsewhere, Jewish Oral Law has the authority to interpret and even put into abeyance parts of the Written Law (classic example is Deut. 21:18-21). No such possibility in Islam.
This man's comments are worthless, since he knows nothing about either subject. You've only smeared Spengler's filth all over this thread to change the subject entirely.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by YMix »

You've only smeared Spengler's filth all over this thread to change the subject entirely.
Take it easy, Ibrahim. More arguments, less hyperbole.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Ibrahim »

YMix wrote:
You've only smeared Spengler's filth all over this thread to change the subject entirely.
Take it easy, Ibrahim. More arguments, less hyperbole.

You're right, there are only two threads going on at once where we can comb through this latest essay for pearls of wisdom.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by planctom »

Azrael wrote:
Enki wrote:Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
So what is Jesus's stance on forcing a woman to marry her rapist?
I think he would be against it, especially considering how he saved the "adultress" from a stoning. He was also against men even lusting over women.
Yes, and don´t forget that Deuteronomy was written hundreds of years before Jesus was born.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

This man's comments are worthless, since he knows nothing about either subject. You've only smeared Spengler's filth all over this thread to change the subject entirely.
Christ...... lavender on a plank and hit me in the arse with it.......o_ô........

The inflection I was looking for was Deuteronomy meant something quite different by the time Jesus had a chance to contemplate it from the time when it was written, and that Jesus didn't have a view much removed from the enlightened Pharisees he rubbed shoulders with. How's that?......
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
This man's comments are worthless, since he knows nothing about either subject. You've only smeared Spengler's filth all over this thread to change the subject entirely.
Christ...... lavender on a plank and hit me in the arse with it.......o_ô........

The inflection I was looking for was Deuteronomy meant something quite different by the time Jesus had a chance to contemplate it from the time when it was written, and that Jesus didn't have a view much removed from the enlightened Pharisees he rubbed shoulders with. How's that?......
Any changes in interpretation for a continuous legal tradition will tend to show up in a text. What evidence is there that the view prevailing in rabbinic Judaism was an innovation, differing from how the law was originally interpreted? Even when compiled, the passages in Exodus and Deuteronomy were in need of interpreters to reconcile both texts into one (at least in theory) tradition.
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Hubristic ignorance . . .

Post by Marcus »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
This man's comments are worthless, since he knows nothing about either subject. You've only smeared Spengler's filth all over this thread to change the subject entirely.
The inflection I was looking for was . . How's that?......
Such hubristic, rude stupidity wasn't worth a reply, Lizz. One may well disagree with Goldman, but his comments are far from worthless, and Goldman knows much more about everything than does the man ignorant enough to blow David off so easily.

That said, Goldman is in excellent company. Ib has also blown off Rosenstock-Huessy and C. S. Lewis. Maybe Rosenzweig too if memory serves . . :oops:
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Enki »

Spengler sez: The Jews are better than you in every way, unless you are a devout Christian, in which case it's just most ways. Vote Republican!
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Lonely need a companion? Rape any hot virgin and get a

Post by Ibrahim »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
This man's comments are worthless, since he knows nothing about either subject. You've only smeared Spengler's filth all over this thread to change the subject entirely.
Christ...... lavender on a plank and hit me in the arse with it.......o_ô........
It would be less painful and more dignified than quoting Spengler on theology.


The inflection I was looking for was Deuteronomy meant something quite different by the time Jesus had a chance to contemplate it from the time when it was written, and that Jesus didn't have a view much removed from the enlightened Pharisees he rubbed shoulders with. How's that?......
Well that's not what the essay you linked to is about. It's about how people who oppose anti-Sharia legislation as an unconstitutional tilt at legal windmills need to wake up to the fact that Muslims all beat their wives.







Marcus wrote:One may well disagree with Goldman, but his comments are far from worthless, and Goldman knows much more about everything than does the man ignorant enough to blow David off so easily.
This forum is packed with people who were banned from Spengler's various forums for exposing his nonsensical propaganda with historical facts or statistical data. The fact that you still worship this golden calf (Goldman calf?) is a sign of your gullibility, not his intelligence.

Ib has also blown off Rosenstock-Huessy and C. S. Lewis. Maybe Rosenzweig too if memory serves . .
Definitely Rosenzweig. That's a whole roster of second-rate and third-rate minds. Come up with a few more and we've got a starting lineup for a intellectual t-ball team.
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