The Sham

[Enki]

Noddy can you expand on that please.

[Simple Minded]

I have long thought that the "Eastern" religions/philosophies (also Marcus Aurelius' writings) that emphasized the role of the individual's foci, perception, and interpretation in creating the view the individual holds that life/people was/are good, bad, neutral, unfair, just, mean, kind, etc. were very useful.

I think it was Thoreau who said something to the effect that the person who has problems with their bowel movements (perhaps ED or heartburn today...) sets about reforming the world.

I think far to many in the West have great faith in the lever pullers to solve problems that lie beyond the capability of the lever pullers to solve.

group solutions administered from afar..... localized individual perceptions of the solutions..... hmmmm..... what could possibly go wrong?

[Enki]

I have long thought that the "Eastern" religions/philosophies (also Marcus Aurelius' writings) that emphasized the role of the individual's foci, perception, and interpretation in creating the view the individual holds that life/people was/are good, bad, neutral, unfair, just, mean, kind, etc. were very useful.

I think it was Thoreau who said something to the effect that the person who has problems with their bowel movements (perhaps ED or heartburn today...) sets about reforming the world.

I think far to many in the West have great faith in the lever pullers to solve problems that lie beyond the capability of the lever pullers to solve.

group solutions administered from afar..... localized individual perceptions of the solutions..... hmmmm..... what could possibly go wrong?

True, at the end of the day, it is up to individuals to resolve the problems internally. If you are not a part of the problem, then you are a part of the solution.

[noddy]

Noddy can you expand on that please.

i will try to start a new thread on "indifference" (oh teh horrorz) later today... ill leave this thread dedicated to single truth, which is not something i can believe in at all.... its abstract reductionism to infinity for me.

hopefully dioscuri can rattle out some more eloquence that convinces me of his position.

[Simple Minded]

Noddy can you expand on that please.

i will try to start a new thread on "indifference" (oh teh horrorz) later today... ill leave this thread dedicated to single truth, which is not something i can believe in at all.... its abstract reductionism to infinity for me.

hopefully dioscuri can rattle out some more eloquence that convinces me of his position.

I too look forward to your post (NO PRESSURE!!) especially since you used the word "indifference" above.


"The good life can be achieved to perfection by any soul capable of showing indifference to things that are themselves indifferent……….bearing also in mind that none of them is responsible for the opinion we form of it. They make no approaches to us, they remain stationary, it is we who produce judgments about them………..Do not be aggrieved, then, if things are not always to your liking."

Marcus Aurelius

[Parodite]

All ideologies are idiotic, whether religious or political, for it is conceptual thinking, the conceptual word, which has so unfortunately divided man.

- Jiddu Krishnamurti

Great quote Parodite.

without concepts you are stuck in reactive mode and dont get to plan/create much... anyway.

I think JK means conceptual thought used outside of practical use. To take the bus from A to B indeed you need to conceptual thought, be able to read signs, schedules. Same for growing potatoes. Ideology though, especially religious ideologies tend to use metaphysical concepts that apply only in virtual spaces.

i think this is gobbedlygookery, its not the fault of conceptual thinking its about the diabolical irrational game between ego/arrogance/insecurity when dealing with the concepts

Agree with that. Conceptual thought as applied in ideological/religious virtual spaces is in some sort of a feeback loop with e.g. ego/arrogance/insecurity and more; the palette of human emotion and basic behavior.

an insecure person will lash out at anything that affects their little ego, no concepts required... it can be as simple as walking past their front door.

Ideas, images, symbols in religion and ideology... when embedded via strong feedback loops with basic human emotion and behavior .. can make them lash out even faster and harder. In a group they become a pack of wolves, running with the devil at their heals and destiny heaven haven waiting. Don't be in their way! They will kill you, or just explain poetically you will not last nor live, or be killed later by divine powers that will cleans the earth from heretic impurities like you, dirty sinner! God is Great and you'll be dead.

So insecure people are made even more insecure and then ending up in terra paranoia. That turns some into monsters, like Hitler.

[noddy]

just a quick note to say i actually did sit myself down and start compiling notes and thoughts and then came down hard with a nasty stomach bacteria.

when i can muster up half a brain i will continue...

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

And if you reach a certain level of enlightenment, Nike trainers become unecessary. Needing a fashion brand to complete your identity becomes obsolete. For instance, my goal when I put on fashion brands, is purely for other people's benefits. If I want to assimilate into a Wall Street crowd, I must alter certain aspects of my appearance. Those who I consider my actual peers are those who can see me regardless of what clothes I am wearing.

The secret is that there is no secret. There is no such thing as enlightenment. There is no world but this one. It seems like your ideal is a self-conscious amused disengagement from the world, an elevated perch from which you can survey the commoners and dabble in participation here and there if the fancy strikes you. My ideal is diametrically opposed: un-self-conscious full engagement in your world. These types, however, are usually the yokels and simpletons provincial morons that the clever urban-dweller laughs at for not seeing the relativity of the things they are naive enough to care about.

[Enki]

And if you reach a certain level of enlightenment, Nike trainers become unecessary. Needing a fashion brand to complete your identity becomes obsolete. For instance, my goal when I put on fashion brands, is purely for other people's benefits. If I want to assimilate into a Wall Street crowd, I must alter certain aspects of my appearance. Those who I consider my actual peers are those who can see me regardless of what clothes I am wearing.

The secret is that there is no secret. There is no such thing as enlightenment. There is no world but this one. It seems like your ideal is a self-conscious amused disengagement from the world, an elevated perch from which you can survey the commoners and dabble in participation here and there if the fancy strikes you. My ideal is diametrically opposed: un-self-conscious full engagement in your world. These types, however, are usually the yokels and simpletons provincial morons that the clever urban-dweller laughs at for not seeing the relativity of the things they are naive enough to care about.

Not at all. My ideal is completely achievable and has nothing to do with an ordination or a pose, it has to do with increasing one's ability to be aware of what is going on around them. Enlightenment is simply the ability to see more clearly, to more easily know. This can be attained in many ways. It can be attained by training your mind for more efficient thinking. It can be attained by achieving more knowledge about how more things work. It can be attained by training your eyes to see better or your ears to hear better. It can be attained by reducing pain so that less of your mental power is spent processing pain. It can be attained by becoming better at processing pain.

To me it's a sensual experiential issue, not a matter of belief.

un-self-conscious full engagement in your world - This is precisely what I strive for.

[Ibrahim]

The secret is that there is no secret. There is no such thing as enlightenment. There is no world but this one.

This actually how some Buddhist sects define "enlightenment."

[Juggernaut Nihilism]

Nirvana and Samsara are one.

[Dioscuri]

The secret is that there is no secret. There is no such thing as enlightenment. There is no world but this one.

The nature and organization of this world is foreclosed to ordinary consciousness, and is therefore effectively secret. Enlightenment is to begin to glimpse this organization.

There is also an additional snag in that it is possible to exploit the Real organization of the world without knowing its nature.

It seems like your ideal is a self-conscious amused disengagement from the world, an elevated perch from which you can survey the commoners and dabble in participation here and there if the fancy strikes you. My ideal is diametrically opposed: un-self-conscious full engagement in your world.

"Full engagement" with What? Is the question...

[Parodite]

Word-Geschwätz hat noch nie ein gutes Bier produziert. Noch ändert sie den Geschmack.

(Word babble has never produced a good beer. Nor does it change the taste.)