Violins: old masters vs new

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Typhoon
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Violins: old masters vs new

Post by Typhoon »

PhysOrg | Study shows even professional musicians can't tell old master violins from new
It’s been a known fact in the musical world for at least a couple of centuries; violins made by two old Italian masters, Giuseppe Guarneri del Gesu, and especially Antonio Stradivari are superior in every way to anything that has come since. Because of this, various scientists over the years have studied these special instruments to discern their secrets and while they’ve come up with several theories, none has been able to conclusively prove anything. This might be, suggest Claudia Fritz and Joseph Curtin, because the musical magic wrought by the classical instruments is nothing more than a myth. The two have conducted a study at a violin competition in Indiana this past year using professional violinists to gauge the quality of a variety of violins, some from the old masters, some that were made very recently. And as they describe in their paper to be published in the Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences, master violinists, it appears, aren’t able to tell which instrument is which, any better than anyone else.
Expect this to be a controversial finding in the classical music world.
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Azrael
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Re: Violins: old masters vs new

Post by Azrael »

This doesn't surprise me. And I am slightly relieved. I'm glad we don't live in the dark ages of violins.
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jerryberry
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Re: Violins: old masters vs new

Post by jerryberry »

Where the hell is calinescu? I tried logging into my old spengler forum account to send him and Ellen an invite but can't do it.

I'm relieved as well.
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jerryberry
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Re: Violins: old masters vs new

Post by jerryberry »

from the comments, Paolo Alberghini writes:
"The qualities that a Stradivari, Guarneri or any other expensive instrument offers that makes them special cannot be appreciated in just a short sound clip. For many players, it can take months and even years to truly be able to get the best out of a Stradivari violin. Is a complex relationship that has to mature. Also, there are very few people who specialize in adjusting and curating these "expensive" instruments around the world. With a bad adjustment and set up even the most valuable violin can sound like... Well you get the point.

I have plenty of experience with these Strads, and knwo that is not the kind of instrument you can pick up and bring the best out of them immediately. There are also many variables the study did not take into account. Did the set up on teh violin done by the same person, were all the strings as new in all the violins? Etc. "
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Re: Violins: old masters vs new

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Well I can't speak for violins but I make and play wood instruments and can tell you that either factory or custom, new instruments destroy old instruments with few exceptions. The old ones that do sound better generally do because the wood or something else is old, and gives it a certain filtering/triggering of frequencies that is essentially sort of a built in wah pedal, stuck in one position (aka filter, but I repeat).
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jerryberry
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Re: Violins: old masters vs new

Post by jerryberry »

Honestly, every time I've tried a new guitar at a nice shop, I've been green with envy. It's fun to grow with an old trusty instrument, wearing out the frets and all. I remember reading how Pat Metheny could make a specific sitar like sound from a worn down fret that ended up being one of his hits.
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Re: Violins: old masters vs new

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.

Not Everyone’s in Tune Over Precious Violins

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. . long-running debate over whether the enormous worth of such instruments is rooted in myth or merit.

The tradition of challenging the intrinsic musical worth of antique instruments is nearly as venerable as the instruments themselves. Science has advanced, with ever better methods of analysis. Makers have leapt ahead in producing superb instruments, which have gained a foothold among many serious players.

But while the mystique faces ever-greater scrutiny, it remains powerful in our increasingly digitized and disposable world, where 300-year-old wood objects used to express deep emotion seem ever more precious. Prices continue to soar, and musicians still yearn to play old master instruments.

[..]

But while the mystique faces ever-greater scrutiny, it remains powerful in our increasingly digitized and disposable world, where 300-year-old wood objects used to express deep emotion seem ever more precious. Prices continue to soar, and musicians still yearn to play old master instruments.

The latest to get one is Stéphane Tétreault, an 18-year-old Montrealer who is being loaned the 1707 Countess of Stainlein Stradivarius cello that belonged to Bernard Greenhouse, a founding member of the Beaux Arts Trio, who died last May. The Greenhouse family sold the instrument two weeks ago to an anonymous patron in Montreal for an undisclosed amount, but one said to surpass the previous record of $6 million.

The Strad wars won’t end soon, and soaring prices for the 2,000 made during the golden age of mid-16th to mid-18th-century northern Italy have intensified the stakes. The pool of talented string players is growing. The number of Strads and Guarnerius del Gesùs and Amatis and Bergonzis is not.

By contrast, mechanical instruments like clarinets and flutes tend to wear out; even pianos, with their complicated action and the tendency of their flat soundboards to warp, have lives usually measured only in decades, not centuries.

Broadly speaking, consider the divide in the string world to be between the True Believers and the Debunkers.

On the true believer side are collectors, dealers and superstar players who perform on the valuable instruments. All have an interest in maintaining the reputation of these instruments, as a source of both wealth and prestige.

Several factors put old Italian instruments on top. Superb wood, perfected design, the highest craftsmanship and special varnish all came together in Cremona and its environs from 1550 to 1750. The sheer number of years being played is a factor. Repeated vibrations have an effect on the wood’s structure, causing cells to break down in a way that produces a more flexible sound, some violin experts say. “By playing an instrument, it opens up its pores,” said the violinist and conductor Pinchas Zukerman, who plays a 1742 Guarnerius del Gesù. “The voice becomes purer and brighter.”

Like many violin experts, Mr. Zukerman cautions that some Strads are better than others. What matters is the connection. “When an instrument suits a player, my God, it’s a match in heaven,” he said. “When I play on Perlman’s violin I sound like garbage,” he said of Itzhak Perlman’s Strad. “He plays it, and it sounds like a million bucks.”

Psychology plays an important role. If musicians think they are playing one of the greatest instruments in the world, one that served virtuosos before them, they may actually play better.

“A great violinist can make almost any violin sound really good,” said Christopher Reuning, the Boston-based dealer who brokered the Greenhouse sale. “When they are playing a great Strad they have an ease.” It allows them to “sculpt the sound” and produce different emotions with the slightest change of bow speed, he added.

The equipment adds to the performer’s luster. Programs sometimes list the name and date of a violinist’s instrument.

The debunkers include scientists, modern luthiers and some younger soloists who can’t afford old master instruments and make a virtue of the new.

“Classifying violins into old and new doesn’t really make any sense, except for the history of design and antique value,” said Claudia Fritz, a flutist and the researcher at the Université Pierre et Marie Curie in Paris who conducted the blind performance study that was published in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on Jan. 2. “I don’t think there is any objective difference,” said Ms. Fritz.

Sam Zygmuntowicz is one of the nation’s most prominent violin makers. He lives in Park Slope, Brooklyn, and his new fiddles go for $55,000. An older instrument recently sold for $130,000 at auction. “Don’t ask the question ‘What makes a Strad great?’ ” he said. “Ask the question ‘What are the attributes of great violins, and what makes this violin different than another?’ ”

“The thing about believers is they just believe,” he said. “For those who are privileged enough to be selling them or own them or buy them, there’s no incentive to disbelieve it.”

The debunkers make another point. The Strad mystique can put enormous pressure on performers to play on a rare named instrument and devalues musicians who don’t.

“This is all I heard when I was growing up,” said Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg, the international soloist. “ ‘You need a great old violin,’ ” she said. “It was drummed into my head.” She felt it so keenly that in her 20s, when she gained the use of a Strad that was too large for her, she kept on playing despite suffering tendinitis.

After two seasons, the wealthy couple who had loaned it to her decided to divorce and recalled the instrument. “In hindsight, it turned out for me to be a blessing because I was ruining my arm,” she said. Ms. Salerno-Sonnenberg now plays a much more comfortable Peter Guarnerius of 1721.

The stratospheric costs of rare instruments mean that many players must rely on loans from wealthy patrons, a situation that can sap an artist’s dignity and cause disruptions in their lives.

Dylana Jenson was a rising star in the late 1970s and early 1980s. After winning a silver medal at the International Tchaikovsky Competition in Moscow at 17, she was loaned a Guarnerius del Gesù. Six years later, when she decided to marry, the patron took the instrument back, saying she was not committed to her career, according to Ms. Jenson. Her career fell into a tailspin.

“It was an intimate part of my ability to express myself as an artist,” she said of the violin. “Then I had nothing.” She now plays a Zygmuntowicz instrument.

more @ link

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interesting

but

Violin and any music instrument, in final analysis, is not a piece of art, but a technological, mathematical, instrument

like wine is a chemical product and not making art

these days, with advance wine making technology, any country, no matter of climate, can make (already making) excellent wine, already happening

same with Violin or Piano or flute or Saxophone

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jerryberry
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Re: Violins: old masters vs new

Post by jerryberry »

Azari, agreed. I think. The art is what the person creates with the instrument but, I wouldn't rule out an objects potential for art (or beauty) just because it has specs. Just a thought....
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