Zionism | Pro and Con

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Postby Parodite » Sat May 10, 2014 12:11 am

HP... I'm not sure how to make you understand something very simple.

Take the general concept; a club, in the following sense:

To join or combine for a common purpose; form a club (free dictionary)

I think this concept is not too difficult to grasp. People form all kinds of clubs, for all kinds of reasons. From a gardening club... to religious clubs like the RCC, sports clubs, investment clubs. With a bit of a stretch, one could call a territory like a nation state also a club. To be a member means you are a citizen of that country.

But forget for the moment all the types of clubs that exist... and focus on the one thing that they all have in common: membership rules. All clubs have them. Would you agree with that, HP?

Do you at understand how clubs work, what membership means, that there exist membership rules? And guess what.. now comes the hard part that I would really like you to meditate on for a while... who make and maintain those membership rules?

Please think of any type of club... of the members of those clubs... and the membership rules that apply to that particular club. Again... who are making and maintaining those membership rules? Keep them sacred and unchanged, or change them when they feel like it?

I think and hope you will agree... that although there are tens of thousands of clubs in the world... they all have this part in common: it is club members themselves who decide on the membership rules. In other words: all clubs self-regulate.

This is true, right? We need some common ground here.

Of course.. we all only seek and accept membership of clubs that we like. And if other people than our adult individual selves made us member of clubs at very young age without asking us for permission first as happens often with religious clubs.. later in life we may decide to unilaterally excommunicate ourselves from such clubs when they don't give us what we want or need. (not all clubs accept such a unilateral move unfortunately; you might get killed)

Do you understand that most people, when they look at clubs in the world they would never wanna be part of even if membership were offered to them for free... simply shrug their shoulders and move on? Moving on because as a non-member there is nothing you can do about those membership rules anyways. You can think they are absurd, stink, are false, evil.... but your opinion doesn't do anything to change those membership rules or change how the club behaves in the wider world. It just should be a reason to be happy you're not member of that club.. or forced to be member.

Well, that last sentence is not quite true. In the case of the Jewish club there is something you can do. If you want them to be more Jewish than they already are... more married to their new territory in the Middle East... you should just keep delegitimizing their Jewishness (or the Jewishness of some their club members) and the country they now live in where they can defend themselves against fits of anti-Semitic violence. People like you HP, actually do them a great service! ;)
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Re:

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sat May 10, 2014 7:37 am

Parodite wrote:HP... I'm not sure how to make you understand something very simple.

Take the general concept; a club, in the following sense:

To join or combine for a common purpose; form a club (free dictionary)

I think this concept is not too difficult to grasp. People form all kinds of clubs, for all kinds of reasons. From a gardening club... to religious clubs like the RCC, sports clubs, investment clubs. With a bit of a stretch, one could call a territory like a nation state also a club. To be a member means you are a citizen of that country.

But forget for the moment all the types of clubs that exist... and focus on the one thing that they all have in common: membership rules. All clubs have them. Would you agree with that, HP?

Do you at understand how clubs work, what membership means, that there exist membership rules? And guess what.. now comes the hard part that I would really like you to meditate on for a while... who make and maintain those membership rules?

Please think of any type of club... of the members of those clubs... and the membership rules that apply to that particular club. Again... who are making and maintaining those membership rules? Keep them sacred and unchanged, or change them when they feel like it?

I think and hope you will agree... that although there are tens of thousands of clubs in the world... they all have this part in common: it is club members themselves who decide on the membership rules. In other words: all clubs self-regulate.

This is true, right? We need some common ground here.

Of course.. we all only seek and accept membership of clubs that we like. And if other people than our adult individual selves made us member of clubs at very young age without asking us for permission first as happens often with religious clubs.. later in life we may decide to unilaterally excommunicate ourselves from such clubs when they don't give us what we want or need. (not all clubs accept such a unilateral move unfortunately; you might get killed)

Do you understand that most people, when they look at clubs in the world they would never wanna be part of even if membership were offered to them for free... simply shrug their shoulders and move on? Moving on because as a non-member there is nothing you can do about those membership rules anyways. You can think they are absurd, stink, are false, evil.... but your opinion doesn't do anything to change those membership rules or change how the club behaves in the wider world. It just should be a reason to be happy you're not member of that club.. or forced to be member.

Well, that last sentence is not quite true. In the case of the Jewish club there is something you can do. If you want them to be more Jewish than they already are... more married to their new territory in the Middle East... you should just keep delegitimizing their Jewishness (or the Jewishness of some their club members) and the country they now live in where they can defend themselves against fits of anti-Semitic violence. People like you HP, actually do them a great service! ;)




Parodite , there's no ambiguity, not understanding of what you and I say .. we understand each other .. Yes, Religion is a CLUB, with membership and rules to become member

but

Judaism was specifically made for Hebrew tribe .. you could only become a member of Hebrew tribe "if your mother was from Hebrew tribe" .. it was specifically "Blood relation" .. in Judaism no such thing as "conversion", Hebrew tribe did not create Judaism as "a universal religion" but specifically for their own tribe, was meant as tribal laws/rules

In that sense, the Ashkenazim (not being Hebrew tribe ethnic) "created" their own "Judaism-II" with their own rules .. no problem doing this, free country, and, that Judaism-II is what Colonel Son referring taking shape in Latvia/Estonia (he is right), but that Judaism-II not same as Judaism of Hebrew tribe

- Ashkenazim Judaism-II is a religion and not a people (the people are Latvian, Estonian, Ukrainian, Pole, Russian .. all different ethnics)

- Hebrew tribe Judaism is "a People" .. people of Hebrew tribe

and

Palestine, Middle East, is not America that different people, British, German, African, Philippine, Chinese , Iranian, Japanese Mexican and and and come in (CLUB) and build a NATION

in a nut shell :

Ashkenazim "Judaism-II" does not entitle them to claim Moses promised them Palestine .. true, bad things happened to them in their home country, true .. if they want a place of their own, Israel, they must ask the indigini, elbowing-in will lead to next disaster

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Re: Re:

Postby Parodite » Sat May 10, 2014 11:35 am

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Ashkenazim "Judaism-II" does not entitle them to claim Moses promised them Palestine .. true, bad things happened to them in their home country, true .. if they want a place of their own, Israel, they must ask the indigini, elbowing-in will lead to next disaster


I do understand this point of yours and will come back to it. It's a very important issue and a lot can be said about and around it.

But I'm not totally sure you understood really what I said about clubs and membership rules. In a nutshell what I'm saying is a principle that applies to all clubs:

Clubs make and break their own rules

You agree? Are we on the same page? I like to rant a bit more about this.

Club rules... and how you become a member.. are not engraved in stainless steel. They do change over time, they are not forever. And clubs themselves.. are not forever either. Some clubs and their rules included simply go extinct. Right?

But what remains true for as long a club exists.. is that they decide on their own club rules. They make them or break them if so they wish. It is totally their own business, the business of the club and members of that club. I think we indeed are on the same page in this, but it appears as if you do know this is true.. but can't accept somehow the consequences of this fact when we focus on a specific club: the Jew-club. So I'll spend some more time on this issue. This will be boring to those who understand all I say here is rather obvious. Mea culpa for that.

Again, and can't repeat it enough.. clubs make-and-break their own rules. To be a member of the RCC there are certain rules. You just can't wake up one sunny morning as a non-Catholic and announce the world you have become a Roman Catholic. Maybe in your own head you changed the membership rules of the RCC that deal with becoming a club member... and believe yourself that this legitimizes your claim that you now are a Roman Catholic.. but to the rest of the club members you are just a delusional wacko. Why a wacko? Because that is not how things work in the reality of clubs and their members. Roman Catholics don't care what non-Roman Catholics fabricate in their own minds on what is a Catholic, should be a Catholic and how one becomes or should become a member, or what brand of Catholic is more Catholic than another.

So.. it is totally irrelevant what outsiders think of a certain club, its rules, how it applies those rules, change them or not change their own rules... right?

To give an example. Let's say the RCC changes it membership rules. Those changed rules say that existing and new members of the RCC must participate in a ritual if they want to stay a member or become a new member. This new rules means that they:

1) eat a porridge on new years eve with the following ingredients: 1/2 liter of sour goat milk + the pulp of 1 Koran (if your kitchen blender can't handle a full Koran.. it is allowed to remove the covers first), then:

2) run 10 times around the St. Peter in Rome, then:

3) kiss the bare feet of the Pope 10x left foot and 10x right foot.. while receiving 50 cleansing lashes on your back with a whip.

4) The above however only applies to German Roman Catholics, as a retribution they for their sins committed in WW2.

5) One final addition that applies to all Roman Catholics world wide: everybody has to apply for citizenship of Vatican City. All applications will be considered. If you are granted this citizenship will allow your certain privileges, responsibilities and powers in your local RC community. (a final test however will have to be done to decide if you are worthy: standing on your head and drink 3 bottles of Holy Trinity wine within 5 minutes; this however should not be seen as a big hurdle given the traditional experiences in this field)

Now outsiders may wonder..."Holy Moses! Where is the time when Catholics were still real Catholics? Before madness took over the RCC? What the f*ck is happening there?? I liked those Catholics of version 1.1 (and some of version 1.2) much better!"

The point being here: as a non-Catholic your opinions and particular tastes don't matter. You are entitled to have them... of course. But what remains is the simple fact.. that clubs make or break, keep or change their own rules as they see fit.

Do you understand, HP, that it is up to Catholics themselves to decide what is, what constitutes a Catholic? What club rules apply? To become a member, stay a member, stop being a member? That it aint zero zill nill relevance nor effect what you.. as a non-Catholic think? Other than an opinion that expresses maybe that club such or such aint your cuppa tea... well.. in that case feel blessed nobody forces you to become a member.

Club rules can concern themselves with all kinds of stuff. They may say that only males can be members, or people with a certain hair color, that they ought to be born in Canada or forget about the whole thing... Lots of crazy stuff going on in clubs. But what still holds true is the same thing and my point:

It is club members who decide on what their club is about, what membership rules apply.. if they ought to be changed or not. Clubs always self-identify and self-regulate.

The Jew-club is no different, HP. They make, break, keep or change their own rules.. as they see fit. It is kind of endearing how much you care about that club and its rules... even though it is utterly useless since it is not your club.

Of course it can be interesting to study clubs, their evolution, rules, how they self-identify and self-regulate.. and of course what it is that this club does in life... how it defines itself, shapes them as a group and as individuals. You can study a club and at the same time suspend your personal opinion and tastes... since they ain't gonna matter anyways that's not difficult... unless you are a club member yourself.

I find the Jew-club and its evolution, its changes through history an interesting club to study, and I don't feel the need nor urge to judge them on how they organize and regulate their club. If one day they decide that all Iranians can apply for membership for free and without further ado... sure I would be surprised.. but who am I to care.. since it is no my club anyways, nor an Iranian so I will scratch my head for a moment and continue with my own life with polite indifference towards the Jew club. I would wish them well though.

Do you understand now that it is entirely up the Jew club.. who is / can become a member of their club? Whether it is native Hebrews that lived unbroken in Palestine...or included those living in Iran for centuries... and included north African Jews and those living in Spain and Portugal that got pushed around in Europe ending up in Poland?.. and included religious converts to Judaism with blond hair and blue eyes?

It is entirely up to the Jewish club HP.. who is and can become member. I think we not disagree on those basics.. but want to be absolutely sure of we really are... or not.

If we really do agree on those general principles that apply to any and all clubs in the world the Jew-club included... sure lets move on to your criticisms on Zionism, the state of Israel.
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Re: Re:

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sat May 10, 2014 6:06 pm

Parodite wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Ashkenazim "Judaism-II" does not entitle them to claim Moses promised them Palestine .. true, bad things happened to them in their home country, true .. if they want a place of their own, Israel, they must ask the indigini, elbowing-in will lead to next disaster


I do understand this point of yours and will come back to it. It's a very important issue and a lot can be said about and around it.

But I'm not totally sure you understood really what I said about clubs and membership rules. In a nutshell what I'm saying is a principle that applies to all clubs:

Clubs make and break their own rules

You agree? Are we on the same page? I like to rant a bit more about this.

Club rules... and how you become a member.. are not engraved in stainless steel. They do change over time, they are not forever. And clubs themselves.. are not forever either. Some clubs and their rules included simply go extinct. Right?

But what remains true for as long a club exists.. is that they decide on their own club rules. They make them or break them if so they wish. It is totally their own business, the business of the club and members of that club. I think we indeed are on the same page in this, but it appears as if you do know this is true.. but can't accept somehow the consequences of this fact when we focus on a specific club: the Jew-club. So I'll spend some more time on this issue. This will be boring to those who understand all I say here is rather obvious. Mea culpa for that.

Again, and can't repeat it enough.. clubs make-and-break their own rules. To be a member of the RCC there are certain rules. You just can't wake up one sunny morning as a non-Catholic and announce the world you have become a Roman Catholic. Maybe in your own head you changed the membership rules of the RCC that deal with becoming a club member... and believe yourself that this legitimizes your claim that you now are a Roman Catholic.. but to the rest of the club members you are just a delusional wacko. Why a wacko? Because that is not how things work in the reality of clubs and their members. Roman Catholics don't care what non-Roman Catholics fabricate in their own minds on what is a Catholic, should be a Catholic and how one becomes or should become a member, or what brand of Catholic is more Catholic than another.

So.. it is totally irrelevant what outsiders think of a certain club, its rules, how it applies those rules, change them or not change their own rules... right?

To give an example. Let's say the RCC changes it membership rules. Those changed rules say that existing and new members of the RCC must participate in a ritual if they want to stay a member or become a new member. This new rules means that they:

1) eat a porridge on new years eve with the following ingredients: 1/2 liter of sour goat milk + the pulp of 1 Koran (if your kitchen blender can't handle a full Koran.. it is allowed to remove the covers first), then:

2) run 10 times around the St. Peter in Rome, then:

3) kiss the bare feet of the Pope 10x left foot and 10x right foot.. while receiving 50 cleansing lashes on your back with a whip.

4) The above however only applies to German Roman Catholics, as a retribution they for their sins committed in WW2.

5) One final addition that applies to all Roman Catholics world wide: everybody has to apply for citizenship of Vatican City. All applications will be considered. If you are granted this citizenship will allow your certain privileges, responsibilities and powers in your local RC community. (a final test however will have to be done to decide if you are worthy: standing on your head and drink 3 bottles of Holy Trinity wine within 5 minutes; this however should not be seen as a big hurdle given the traditional experiences in this field)

Now outsiders may wonder..."Holy Moses! Where is the time when Catholics were still real Catholics? Before madness took over the RCC? What the f*ck is happening there?? I liked those Catholics of version 1.1 (and some of version 1.2) much better!"

The point being here: as a non-Catholic your opinions and particular tastes don't matter. You are entitled to have them... of course. But what remains is the simple fact.. that clubs make or break, keep or change their own rules as they see fit.

Do you understand, HP, that it is up to Catholics themselves to decide what is, what constitutes a Catholic? What club rules apply? To become a member, stay a member, stop being a member? That it aint zero zill nill relevance nor effect what you.. as a non-Catholic think? Other than an opinion that expresses maybe that club such or such aint your cuppa tea... well.. in that case feel blessed nobody forces you to become a member.

Club rules can concern themselves with all kinds of stuff. They may say that only males can be members, or people with a certain hair color, that they ought to be born in Canada or forget about the whole thing... Lots of crazy stuff going on in clubs. But what still holds true is the same thing and my point:

It is club members who decide on what their club is about, what membership rules apply.. if they ought to be changed or not. Clubs always self-identify and self-regulate.

The Jew-club is no different, HP. They make, break, keep or change their own rules.. as they see fit. It is kind of endearing how much you care about that club and its rules... even though it is utterly useless since it is not your club.

Of course it can be interesting to study clubs, their evolution, rules, how they self-identify and self-regulate.. and of course what it is that this club does in life... how it defines itself, shapes them as a group and as individuals. You can study a club and at the same time suspend your personal opinion and tastes... since they ain't gonna matter anyways that's not difficult... unless you are a club member yourself.

I find the Jew-club and its evolution, its changes through history an interesting club to study, and I don't feel the need nor urge to judge them on how they organize and regulate their club. If one day they decide that all Iranians can apply for membership for free and without further ado... sure I would be surprised.. but who am I to care.. since it is no my club anyways, nor an Iranian so I will scratch my head for a moment and continue with my own life with polite indifference towards the Jew club. I would wish them well though.

Do you understand now that it is entirely up the Jew club.. who is / can become a member of their club? Whether it is native Hebrews that lived unbroken in Palestine...or included those living in Iran for centuries... and included north African Jews and those living in Spain and Portugal that got pushed around in Europe ending up in Poland?.. and included religious converts to Judaism with blond hair and blue eyes?

It is entirely up to the Jewish club HP.. who is and can become member. I think we not disagree on those basics.. but want to be absolutely sure of we really are... or not.

If we really do agree on those general principles that apply to any and all clubs in the world the Jew-club included... sure lets move on to your criticisms on Zionism, the state of Israel.



Judaism, Islam, Christianity .. they all not MAN MADE, but created by G_D .. their laws are no "man made laws" but "G_D's laws" .. that's what believers believe (and act upon)

You & I might think this silly, but believers .. those who think G_D created the universe in 7 days, those who think drinking blood of circumcision is holly, those who waiting for Mahdi to arrive .. really think LORD spoke to them by Koran and Bible and Torah

Yes, a Club can change the laws and rules as those laws and rules are made by "Club members" .. but, Koranic laws, Biblical laws and Torah, they written by G_D, any change means "Blasphemy" (Blasphemy is the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God) ... Any change of those laws converts "G_D's laws" to "Man made laws", and for that kind of laws, other rules apply

Yes, Ashkenazim "Judaism-II" CLUB fully entitled changing laws and rules, as Ashkenazim "Judaism-II" is "MAN MADE", no claim of being "G_D made" .. if so, claim Moses promised Ashkenazim Palestine does not hold (would be as if Iranian Shia would claim Allah promised them NYC, Manhattan :lol:)

All the above just debate & reasoning with crazy religious folks

But, for us secular folk, things very simple .. Ashkenazim are (East European, Russian) and do not belong in Middle East .. same as African or Middle Eastern do not belong in Europe .. selective immigration yes, but not forceful entry, elbowing in

But, ME people have big heart and know the genocide Ashkenazim went through and would accommodate them .. but it must be on a friendly bases

Re RCC, Vatican and their rules .. As you know, in RCC Pope is the personnel representative of Jesus on earth .. meaning, what Pope says is "G_D's word" .. in fact, RCC is a "G_D's dictatorship" by Papal hand

In Judaism, should the "Messiah" arrive, he would have same power as Pope has and can change "G_D's laws"

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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Typhoon » Sat May 10, 2014 8:36 pm

Have to wonder who appointed Heracleum Persicutum Chief Rabbi.
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sat May 10, 2014 10:42 pm

Typhoon wrote:Have to wonder who appointed Heracleum Persicutum Chief Rabbi.



Best to listen to Ashkenazim saying themselves :


Donald Sterling


.
“Donald Sterling: The white Jews, there’s white Jews and black Jews, do you understand?

V: And are the black Jews less than the white Jews?

Donald Sterling: A hundred percent, fifty, a hundred percent.

V: And is that right?

Donald Sterling: It isn’t a question – we don’t evaluate what’s right and wrong, we live in a society. We live in a culture. We have to live within that culture.”
.



Ethiopian Jews No Longer Welcome In Israel


As I said above, Colonel, there are 2 kinds of Judaism

- The Hebrew tribe Judaism that lives to the letter of Torah & Talmud .. no conversion, Mother must be Jewish and and and

- The Ashkenazim, Latvian/Estonian/Russian/Khazari etc etc Judaism-II .. the rules
and morals and ethics for Judaism-II is made by Ashkenazim themselves for their own needs

As Donald Sterling CORRECTLY says, in Israel, there are WHITE Ashkenazim Jews, and non white "Hebrew tribe" Jews .. the rest pls read in the 2 article I linked, don't want hurt feelings here

In that sense, speaking about Jews, one must clarify, we talking about G_D Made Jews or "Man Made Jews" ? .. different rules, laws and Rabbies ..

BTW, FYI, Hebrew tribe, the Jews, are a north African tribe, Queen Saba (and Jewish Ethiopian queen)

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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Parodite » Sun May 11, 2014 12:33 am

Typhoon wrote:Have to wonder who appointed Heracleum Persicutum Chief Rabbi.


lol

One of the seven mysteries...
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Parodite » Sun May 11, 2014 12:56 am

HP, I know habits die hard... but I do take it you got my point and agree: it does not matter what you, HP, think is a Jew, or a Jew of type a / b/ or c. What is a Jew is something not you decide on... but Jews themselves. It is totally irrelevant what you as a non-Jew think about it, because Jews don't consult non-Jews first before they have an opinion about themselves.

So believe me... if anyone here is interested in what is a Jew, what brands and varieties may exist... they will certainly not consult you and rather talk to Jews themselves.. or read what various Jewish sources say about it. I'm just speaking for myself here.. but I'm certainly not interested in your concoctions. So if you want to continue your out of focus rants here.. let me know when you are ready so we can focus on the next issue: Zionism and the state of Israel.

*******************************************************************************

Zionism and the state of Israel are certainly not things that only concerns Jews. What only concerns Jews is what they tell themselves when they look in the mirror.. as members of the Jew club. The state of Israel however, how it came into existence effected much more people, notably Arabs that lived in the same area that was called Palestine during the British Mandate after WW1. I give the mic to you, HP.
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sun May 11, 2014 8:34 am

Parodite wrote:HP, I know habits die hard... but I do take it you got my point and agree: it does not matter what you, HP, think is a Jew, or a Jew of type a / b/ or c. What is a Jew is something not you decide on... but Jews themselves. It is totally irrelevant what you as a non-Jew think about it, because Jews don't consult non-Jews first before they have an opinion about themselves.

So believe me... if anyone here is interested in what is a Jew, what brands and varieties may exist... they will certainly not consult you and rather talk to Jews themselves.. or read what various Jewish sources say about it. I'm just speaking for myself here.. but I'm certainly not interested in your concoctions. So if you want to continue your out of focus rants here.. let me know when you are ready so we can focus on the next issue: Zionism and the state of Israel.

*******************************************************************************

Zionism and the state of Israel are certainly not things that only concerns Jews. What only concerns Jews is what they tell themselves when they look in the mirror.. as members of the Jew club. The state of Israel however, how it came into existence effected much more people, notably Arabs that lived in the same area that was called Palestine during the British Mandate after WW1. I give the mic to you, HP.



"International communality" builds an opinion whether Israel a "Legitimate" or "Illegitimate" entity .. to do this, "International communality" must decide/know who these people occupying Palestine are, whether they are people that were driven out and now coming back (like Stalin did with many ethnics, Volga Kozaks, Chechen, Crimea Tatars etc etc), or, they are "foreign" to that place and just invading like "Attila the Hun" invaded Europe and settled in Hungary

Notion, Ashkenazim do not care about "World Opinion" silly, as Ashkenazim State can not survive without "International communality" goodwill, no population, strategic and other dept


In that context, Parodite, issue not who Azari thinks IS Jew or not, but, what "International communality" thinks .. Azari just explaining LOUD what "International communality" might be thinking as more and more voices becoming loud that Israel is "illegitimate" .. continuing present policy makers in Israel would push more and more into "illegitimacy"

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/davidh ... ttlements/

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick ... legitimate

http://www.countercurrents.org/hart050410.htm

Azari, contrary to your opinion, neither against Israel nor against Ashkenazim nor against Jewish .. All Azari saying is as Ashkenazim are foreign to Palestine but they need a home, they must ask the Palestinians to accommodate them AND NOT OTHER WAY ROUND .. the "Bride" might be beautiful but SHE is married, as the Rabbies sent by Herzl to investigate Palestine, reported .. that shows WHO the real "friend" of Jewish people are

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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Parodite » Sun May 11, 2014 1:14 pm

HP.. not so fast.. if you don't mind. We hardly recovered from the first part of this discussion about the Jew-club. Where the point was made and understood that it is up to Jews themselves to decide who is a Jew. This doesn't mean non-Jews should not have opinions (having opinions is everybody's birth right)... it only means that non-Jews and their opinions do not change any of the rules Jews themselves decide to apply nor change opinions Jews have about themselves or each other. As in any club, internal discussions, disagreements about rules and how the club projects itself into the future... occur and are a natural part of club life.

Sorry to again repeat this little obvious detail. Repeating the obvious however is sometimes necessary I believe; it helps to stay grounded in reality.

To make it a more general and obvious point. For people to observe clubs of which they are not a member themselves... is like observing things that you cannot change much about. For instance, you can look at the moon and think what a boring white color it has. You'd rather the moon have a bit of a blue-ish glow and with an orange rim at the edges. That's a fine opinion and matter of taste. However, when grounded in reality you quickly realize that those opinions, tastes or hopes.. are useless beyond them merely being opinions, tastes or hopes.

The moon looks the way it looks, and is what it is. You then can do two things: never look at the moon again because it is such a disappointing object... or you just accept the moon for what it is.. maybe with more curiosity than before re-examine the thing. You then stop telling the moon what it should be according to you and instead... let the moon tell and reveal more about itself to you, if you are curious.

You cannot change much about the moon. No matter how much you yell at it. Now my point: history, the past is, like that moon.

It doesn't matter what you look at if it is of yesterday.. or gone long past thousands of years ago. It can tell you its story.. or part of it more likely.. and you may misinterpret things unintentionally... but you can never re-write it. The past.. is out of reach.

So before we look at the history of the state of Israel.. which is an interesting story no doubt.. it would seem a good thing if we could acknowledge the above truth. As with everything of the past... so are the events, the multiple causes that lead to the state of Israel.. out of our reach. You can allow, as best as you can, this history tell its story to you.. as incomplete it probably will be.... and decide it is a wonderful story... or rather a nightmare of sorts...just another bloody colonialist tale... or an act of liberation and justice... a prophecy come true...or just another raw bloody fight about territory of which there are thousands of more stories to tell... another tragedy to be added to the list.

Any of the above appeals to you? Well.. my point is not that one is better than the other.. but that they are ALL irrelevant... in the same sense as one cannot undo or rewrite any history... anything that is of yesterday. As with looking at the moon... as with having opinions about clubs you are not a member of.

Can you agree with all this as a first principle? (not saying or wanting to imply that history is not a great opportunity to learn.. and inform the present.. but we are not there yet..)
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sun May 11, 2014 6:59 pm

Parodite wrote:HP.. not so fast.. if you don't mind. We hardly recovered from the first part of this discussion about the Jew-club. Where the point was made and understood that it is up to Jews themselves to decide who is a Jew. This doesn't mean non-Jews should not have opinions (having opinions is everybody's birth right)... it only means that non-Jews and their opinions do not change any of the rules Jews themselves decide to apply nor change opinions Jews have about themselves or each other. As in any club, internal discussions, disagreements about rules and how the club projects itself into the future... occur and are a natural part of club life.

Sorry to again repeat this little obvious detail. Repeating the obvious however is sometimes necessary I believe; it helps to stay grounded in reality.

.




Yes, the Hebrew tribe can decide who (according to Torah) is a Jew .. but not Ukrainian and Latvian and Estonian CONVERTS

The CONVERTS are, according to "G_D's law of TORAH law" no Jews, and, by definition, they can not decide who Jew or not .. The converts, Ashkenazim, Latvian and Estonians and Ukrainian follow "Man Made Laws" and not "G_D Made Laws" .

Notion, folks from Latvia and Estonia and Ukraine, declare themselves as "JEWS" and "inventing" something called "Reform Judaism" with rules and laws constituting a BLASPHEMY in Torah, this just OPPORTUNISM to ride the Holocaust train to usurp other people's homes


Parodite wrote:
To make it a more general and obvious point. For people to observe clubs of which they are not a member themselves... is like observing things that you cannot change much about. For instance, you can look at the moon and think what a boring white color it has. You'd rather the moon have a bit of a blue-ish glow and with an orange rim at the edges. That's a fine opinion and matter of taste. However, when grounded in reality you quickly realize that those opinions, tastes or hopes.. are useless beyond them merely being opinions, tastes or hopes.

The moon looks the way it looks, and is what it is. You then can do two things: never look at the moon again because it is such a disappointing object... or you just accept the moon for what it is.. maybe with more curiosity than before re-examine the thing. You then stop telling the moon what it should be according to you and instead... let the moon tell and reveal more about itself to you, if you are curious.

You cannot change much about the moon. No matter how much you yell at it. Now my point: history, the past is, like that moon.

It doesn't matter what you look at if it is of yesterday.. or gone long past thousands of years ago. It can tell you its story.. or part of it more likely.. and you may misinterpret things unintentionally... but you can never re-write it. The past.. is out of reach.

So before we look at the history of the state of Israel.. which is an interesting story no doubt.. it would seem a good thing if we could acknowledge the above truth. As with everything of the past... so are the events, the multiple causes that lead to the state of Israel.. out of our reach. You can allow, as best as you can, this history tell its story to you.. as incomplete it probably will be.... and decide it is a wonderful story... or rather a nightmare of sorts...just another bloody colonialist tale... or an act of liberation and justice... a prophecy come true...or just another raw bloody fight about territory of which there are thousands of more stories to tell... another tragedy to be added to the list.

Any of the above appeals to you? Well.. my point is not that one is better than the other.. but that they are ALL irrelevant... in the same sense as one cannot undo or rewrite any history... anything that is of yesterday. As with looking at the moon... as with having opinions about clubs you are not a member of.

Can you agree with all this as a first principle? (not saying or wanting to imply that history is not a great opportunity to learn.. and inform the present.. but we are not there yet..)



looking at the moon and Israel and and and will not change the fact that Ashkenazim, Latvians Estonians Ukrainians Poles no matter do not belong to "Hebrew tribe" and do not belong in Palestine .. mere fact Ashkenazim say they believe in "THEIR SORT OF JUDAISM" that constitutes a BLASPHEMY in TORAH, despite of all this, fact remains they COVERTS and have no place in Palestine .. that is how "international community" thinks and that is why Israel now is considered more and more as "illegitimate"

FYI .. Torah EXPLICITLY forbids Hebrew Tribe return to Israel until Messiah comes .. returning to Israel would be the biggest SIN

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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Parodite » Sun May 11, 2014 9:04 pm

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Yes, the Hebrew tribe can decide who (according to Torah) is a Jew .. but not Ukrainian and Latvian and Estonian CONVERTS.


Stop right there, referee whistles!

Image

You are just expressing an opinion that is irrelevant. Maybe there are some Jews who agree with you.. mostly likely the majority will disagree... but in either or all cases it is not up to you, your opinion simply doesn't count. I explained why this is so... taking quite some time ranting about club life, club rules.. members versus non members. Only club members make or break their own club rules.. not up to you. You have agreed to what I said... so when you say you agree I believe you know yourself what you are agreeing to. It doesn't follow from what you write that you understand and agree...
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Mon May 12, 2014 8:03 am

Parodite wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Yes, the Hebrew tribe can decide who (according to Torah) is a Jew .. but not Ukrainian and Latvian and Estonian CONVERTS.


Stop right there, referee whistles!

Image

You are just expressing an opinion that is irrelevant. Maybe there are some Jews who agree with you.. mostly likely the majority will disagree... but in either or all cases it is not up to you, your opinion simply doesn't count. I explained why this is so... taking quite some time ranting about club life, club rules.. members versus non members. Only club members make or break their own club rules.. not up to you. You have agreed to what I said... so when you say you agree I believe you know yourself what you are agreeing to. It doesn't follow from what you write that you understand and agree...



Parodite, an analogy should help understand what we talking

The "Afrikaans" in South Africa, the Pieter Willem Botha Mafia, could argue they decide who is an African, even declaring the "Black African" in Africa "terrorists" .. you would argue "Afrikaans" have their "African Club" and make their own rules and decided who African who not and and and, and non of Azari business

The "Analogy" exactly fits to Zionist Israel

- Afrikaans are the Ashkenazim
- Neither the Afrikaans nor the Ashkenazim belong to that region
- The indigini, Blacks and Palestinians declared terrorists in their own homes
- Afrikaans and Ashkenazim, both built nuclear weapons, terrorized indigini, killed millions

And ? ? ?

At the end, when Berlin wall fell and communist disappeared, west washed it's hand off Apartheid SA, Afrikaans were declared "illegitimate" in the eyes of "world community", and disappeared and "New SA" was born

Israel going the same path .. there will be a "NEW Israel" in the lines of "New SA", that's what Azari sayin in many posts

Ashkenazim outside Israel have sensed this (Jew Street), Europe and America have sensed this (Kerry saying so)

Question only is, how the "New Israel" will look like

Well, ask Ahmadinejat :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Parodite » Mon May 12, 2014 9:09 am

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Yes, the Hebrew tribe can decide who (according to Torah) is a Jew .. but not Ukrainian and Latvian and Estonian CONVERTS.

[...]
Parodite, an analogy should help understand what we talking


No sir.. your analogy is just another sad and well known reflex of changing the subject.

You made a claim to know who can decide who is a Jew and who not as quoted, which shows you have still no clue and do not understand the basic principles that apply to clubs and club rules.

I will get to your point later where you object to European Jews... "who just marched into Palestine claiming territory and rights without consulting the indigenous Arabs first". Got that point. Will respond to that. But only after checking with you some other issues and principles first.

So back to Start. Rewind.

Do you understand that it is not up to you to decide who is a Jew ands what Jew-club rules apply? It is really a primary school issue every child can understand. Do you understand it, YES or NO, HP. If you don't get it.. or not agree.. then be specific and not just change the subject. Can you do that? I still believe in you. ;)
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Mon May 12, 2014 10:23 am

Parodite wrote:.

Do you understand that it is not up to you to decide who is a Jew and what Jew-club rules apply ? It is really a primary school issue every child can understand. Do you understand it, YES or NO, HP. If you don't get it.. or not agree.. then be specific and not just change the subject. Can you do that? I still believe in you. ;)

.



Parodite, what do you mean by YOU ? ? Azari just an individual, has one vote of 7 billion votes in this world

Whether Azari thinks it is up to Azari or not to Azari "who is a Jew and what Jew-club rules apply ?" does not matter

What matters is whether the "world community" thinks Ashkenazim are Jews or Converts .. why ? ? Because world community must decide whether Ashkenazim have a "valid case", a legitimate case (for Zionist Israel), OR NOT .. if yes, they will support Ashkenazim, if not they will reject Ashkenazim claim

In that sense, it is utterly immaterial whether Ashkenazim, JEW CLUB (as you say) consider themselves Jews or not, they can think they Hindu or WooDoo

That is heart of the matter : support from "world community for a legitimate case"

Facts on the ground show world community support for (Zionist) Israel is disappearing, this not from Azari, but from main western media (media that's own by Ashkenazim)

The above not anti Ashkenazim, in fact, it is for sake of helping them to find peace in a new place .. again, pls, think of "new SA", the Afrikaans still there, they pretty much own everything what they own B4, in surface no apartheid, but a (Ashkenazim) friend visiting Cap Town said it's business as usual :lol: :lol:

And

NO

If all Iranian Ayatollahs rule drinking Vodka guaranties a place in Paradise and having 4 wife (and 500 "temporary wife" :lol: ) a SIN .. if so .. common sense would say they no Muslim .. Notion, Ayatollahs decide the rules & laws of (Muslim) CLUB, ridiculous, Moh (getting instruction from LORD :) ) set the rules and that's end of the story

Same with Ashkenazim "Judaism-II" .. Judaism-II, called also "reform Judaism", with a lot of "Blasphemy" rules, ain't Judaism but a NEW RELIGION .. same as MORMON in reality a new religion, or Bahai or Scientology

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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Parodite » Mon May 12, 2014 11:30 am

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Whether Azari thinks it is up to Azari or not to Azari "who is a Jew and what Jew-club rules apply ?" does not matter


Ok, thanks. Wasn't sure if we agreed on that point, but indeed it seems we do. Club rules are for club members. Opinions are for free and for everybody ;) Great!

But before we move to your other opinions:

1. European Jews have no territorial rights in Israel/Palestine unless the indigenous Arabs would grant them those rights, and
2. What matters is the opinion of the international community about the state Israel...

.. there was the other point that I made, which is a simple primary school issue as well: we cannot change what happened in the past. Are you fully aware of that too? And understand the implications? Yes/No...
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Mon May 12, 2014 11:54 am

Parodite wrote:.

.. there was the other point that I made, which is a simple primary school issue as well: we cannot change what happened in the past. Are you fully aware of that too? And understand the implications ?

Yes/No...



Depends what you mean by "PAST"

Million yrs ago, 100,000 yrs ago, agree with you

but

Anything less than 5000 yrs ago matters and can be changed (if wrong should be accounted for)

Specially what happened last 1000 yrs .. why ? ? because those event are still UNFOLDING

What is "present" time ? ? last 500 yrs .. would say, at least since Oghuz Turks overrun Constantinople

For Iranians, "present time" is since Cyrus took over Babylon, still UNFOLDING, surface might be misleading as it is influences by "temporary" events but deep in heart, in background, that is the case.

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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Parodite » Mon May 12, 2014 12:27 pm

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote:.

.. there was the other point that I made, which is a simple primary school issue as well: we cannot change what happened in the past. Are you fully aware of that too? And understand the implications ?

Yes/No...



Depends what you mean by "PAST"


I mean the past.. in absolute and total sense. From 5 million years ago... to a second ago. I agree, things still unfolding... and when you look behind you, you can see where you came from, a backward view of your unfolding journey and landscape you move in:

Image

On Iranian journey.. you see big deep Iranian landscape.. its history. Same for everyone.

Point is simple: at any moment during journey if you take a snap shot... you cannot change what is behind you. Now if you never look ahead to the future too.. anticipating the changing conditions, probably one day you see your own ship wrecked on the rocks... end of journey.. end of changing landscape. Last image. Tomb stone.

Therefore most important is to look ahead, always anticipate forward movement as good as possible. Otherwise Titanic. This also creates happier pictures of the past taken on back of ship when you look backward in time.
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Parodite » Wed May 14, 2014 10:38 am

HP, I assume you agree with the mentioned principle: you can watch all day backwards in time to the past...and be happy or very angry with all you see... but you better look especially forward in time.. anticipating the always changing current situation/position.. otherwise Titanic disasters. Agree Yes/No?

You made this point:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Anything less than 5000 yrs ago matters and can be changed (if wrong should be accounted for)
Specially what happened last 1000 yrs .. why ? ? because those event are still UNFOLDING.


My question is then: isn't that a bit impractical? In terms of borders in the world... which are all like tombstone reminders of wars red in tooth and claw with hundreds of thousands dead... most are illegitimate if you take last 1000 years as the time frame. Or even if you only take the last 150 years... all borders are illegal. What you want to do about it?
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Wed May 14, 2014 3:12 pm

Parodite wrote:HP, I assume you agree with the mentioned principle: you can watch all day backwards in time to the past...and be happy or very angry with all you see... but you better look especially forward in time.. anticipating the always changing current situation/position.. otherwise Titanic disasters.

Agree Yes/No ?



Yes, agree must always look forward drawing lesson from the past

Agree, YES

Parodite wrote:
You made this point:

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Anything less than 5000 yrs ago matters and can be changed (if wrong should be accounted for)
Specially what happened last 1000 yrs .. why ? ? because those event are still UNFOLDING.


My question is then: isn't that a bit impractical? In terms of borders in the world... which are all like tombstone reminders of wars red in tooth and claw with hundreds of thousands dead... most are illegitimate if you take last 1000 years as the time frame. Or even if you only take the last 150 years... all borders are illegal. What you want to do about it ?



A good question, deserves an answer

The most dramatic change of last (say) 100 yrs is how military power became impotent .. nuclear weapon, chemical, biological and other stuff, weapons of MASS destruction now pretty much "mainstream" .. now maybe 50 Nations have access to all the above, in generation or two 100, in five generations probably ALL nations will have access to all those goodies.

Think this way .. in America everybody is armed to prevent big government abusing power (anchors in constitution) .. now, superimpose this to groups having access to WMD to prevent abuse of pig powers.

What will be the result ?

Result will be, Powers (money & economy), big & small, will have no power to force things anymore (with military power)

Meaning no Attila, Chingiz, Hitler, Churchill, Truman, Stalin, Bush and and can WITHSTAND POPULAR POWER

Rumsfeld is "disarmed"

More and more "east Ukrainian" type of things will happen and no one can stop it .. revolt, referendum, declaring independent .. independent of (so called) National borders, but same culture, civilization

Nobody can stop this

That is what I am saying and saying and saying .. GREATER PERSIA

look at the map


Greater_Iran.gif
Greater_Iran.gif (33.42 KiB) Viewed 291 times



All same culture and civilization .. people want to be one again

Will of the people will win

Military power is impotent stopping this as long as people are "literate" knowledgeable and informed

In that sense, borders made by force, bloody killing, British general being drunk drawing on the sand, will evaporate .. Crimea

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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Wed May 14, 2014 11:42 pm

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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Parodite » Sat May 17, 2014 2:33 pm

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote:HP, I assume you agree with the mentioned principle: you can watch all day backwards in time to the past...and be happy or very angry with all you see... but you better look especially forward in time.. anticipating the always changing current situation/position.. otherwise Titanic disasters.

Agree Yes/No ?



Yes, agree must always look forward drawing lesson from the past


Very much agree with that. What lessons of past are important lessons to you?

Parodite wrote:
You made this point:

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Anything less than 5000 yrs ago matters and can be changed (if wrong should be accounted for)
Specially what happened last 1000 yrs .. why ? ? because those event are still UNFOLDING.


My question is then: isn't that a bit impractical? In terms of borders in the world... which are all like tombstone reminders of wars red in tooth and claw with hundreds of thousands dead... most are illegitimate if you take last 1000 years as the time frame. Or even if you only take the last 150 years... all borders are illegal. What you want to do about it ?



A good question, deserves an answer


Sorry for clipping your entire last part. I'm not sure I agree with you about the new reality with WMD everywhere.. and popular power becoming unstoppable, old friends re-united in new borders. Interesting stuff.. but not what my point and question was all about.

What I said about borders... all of them being illegal, meaning products of bloody wars and undemocratic powergames... was of course in response to you mentioning that the state of Israel is illegal, the result of great injustices done to local Arabs.

Meaning: if you wanna go talk about illegal borders and illegal countries... well you have a very big world to pick from. Why obsess so much about Israel? Much better is question how to move forward.. always start in the present. You agree Yes/No?
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Re: Zionism | Pro and Con

Postby Marcus » Sat May 17, 2014 4:00 pm

Deleted . . .
Last edited by Marcus on Sun May 18, 2014 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Will of the Princes/Will of the People.........

Postby monster_gardener » Sat May 17, 2014 6:46 pm

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote:HP, I assume you agree with the mentioned principle: you can watch all day backwards in time to the past...and be happy or very angry with all you see... but you better look especially forward in time.. anticipating the always changing current situation/position.. otherwise Titanic disasters.

Agree Yes/No ?



Yes, agree must always look forward drawing lesson from the past

Agree, YES

Parodite wrote:
You made this point:

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Anything less than 5000 yrs ago matters and can be changed (if wrong should be accounted for)
Specially what happened last 1000 yrs .. why ? ? because those event are still UNFOLDING.


My question is then: isn't that a bit impractical? In terms of borders in the world... which are all like tombstone reminders of wars red in tooth and claw with hundreds of thousands dead... most are illegitimate if you take last 1000 years as the time frame. Or even if you only take the last 150 years... all borders are illegal. What you want to do about it ?



A good question, deserves an answer

The most dramatic change of last (say) 100 yrs is how military power became impotent .. nuclear weapon, chemical, biological and other stuff, weapons of MASS destruction now pretty much "mainstream" .. now maybe 50 Nations have access to all the above, in generation or two 100, in five generations probably ALL nations will have access to all those goodies.

Think this way .. in America everybody is armed to prevent big government abusing power (anchors in constitution) .. now, superimpose this to groups having access to WMD to prevent abuse of pig powers.

What will be the result ?

Result will be, Powers (money & economy), big & small, will have no power to force things anymore (with military power)

Meaning no Attila, Chingiz, Hitler, Churchill, Truman, Stalin, Bush and and can WITHSTAND POPULAR POWER

Rumsfeld is "disarmed"

More and more "east Ukrainian" type of things will happen and no one can stop it .. revolt, referendum, declaring independent .. independent of (so called) National borders, but same culture, civilization

Nobody can stop this

That is what I am saying and saying and saying .. GREATER PERSIA

look at the map


The attachment Greater_Iran.gif is no longer available



All same culture and civilization .. people want to be one again

Will of the people will win

Military power is impotent stopping this as long as people are "literate" knowledgeable and informed

In that sense, borders made by force, bloody killing, British general being drunk drawing on the sand, will evaporate .. Crimea

.


Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari

The most dramatic change of last (say) 100 yrs is how military power became impotent .. nuclear weapon, chemical, biological and other stuff, weapons of MASS destruction now pretty much "mainstream" .. now maybe 50 Nations have access to all the above, in generation or two 100, in five generations probably ALL nations will have access to all those goodies.

Think this way .. in America everybody is armed to prevent big government abusing power (anchors in constitution) .. now, superimpose this to groups having access to WMD to prevent abuse of pig powers.


Problem is that Nukes and BioPlague etc are not the same as personal fire arms.... :idea:

What will be the result ?


Likely Nuclear War(s) or maybe worse...... At least in the Northern Hemisphere....

Result will be, Powers (money & economy), big & small, will have no power to force things anymore (with military power)

Meaning no Attila, Chingiz, Hitler, Churchill, Truman, Stalin, Bush and and can WITHSTAND POPULAR POWER


I wouldn't be too sure about that....... :idea:

Give Chingiz nukes and China might not be here today.... Chingiz tried to exterminate the Chinese with bows, swords & spears....... He would have loved Nukes.......

Likewise Hitler vs. England, Russia and mayber Uz....... Hitler gets enough nukes first..... :shock: :evil: :o

In the long run, it may/probably doesn't matter that much if the other side has nukes....

They are likely going to be used by a Madman or Sociopath or Scared Person who thinks an enemy is going to use them first.......

This almost happened between the Soviets & US more than once during the Cold War......

More and more "east Ukrainian" type of things will happen


Probably true...... :roll:

and no one can stop it ..


Not so........

The Talented Mr. Putin, President Prince Vlad the Imprisoner of Russia could stop it if he so chose.....

Or maybe some Black Widow Chechens if they bagged The Talened Mr. Putin, The Biggest Baddest Russian Bear of them all.

independent of (so called) National borders, but same culture, civilization


Maybe.....

But Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey Killer Ape Humans allegedly of the same culture & civilization have been known to fight to the Death over the most minor of differences including the Color of a Racing Team....

Nobody can stop this


Not so.......

Anyone with control of sufficient WMDs and the will/madness to do so....

That is what I am saying and saying and saying .. GREATER PERSIA

look at the map


Greater_Iran.gif
Greater_Iran.gif (33.42 KiB) Viewed 256 times




Lord Have Mercy, Azari....... :roll:

The Persian Lion PeaCocks have designs on territory that the Chinese Dragons actually control already? :shock:

Is Iran trying to Become the Seventh War That China is Sure to Fight? ;) :twisted: :lol: :roll:

http://www.haohaoreport.com/chinese-his ... t-50-years


Similar with what you call the "Zoo" of the Nuke Armed Pakistan :shock:

Wonder if they will much more trouble with blowing away Shia than they do with Hindus....

Maybe but I wouldn't bet much on it if someone was trying to take territory they control....

Powers usually have a strange obsession with territory....... ;)

Want to keep what they have........

Maybe ;) get more........

Even if it is trouble...... :roll:

All same culture and civilization .. people want to be one again


Yeah, sure.......

Afghan Tribes that hate each other's guts are part of the same culture and civilization...

Maybe...... ;) .... Euroz twisted:

Or Islamics......

But I suspect each of them wants to be one again mostly/only if each one of them is the One over All of the Others...

Will of the people will win


No guarantee of that....

If the regime is sufficiently ruthless....

And has the codes to the Nuke Missiles.......


Military power is impotent stopping this as long as people are "literate" knowledgeable and informed


Maybe.....

If their opponent is an Arrogant, DELUSIONAL, Lazy, LYING Son of a Bitch Eater like obama.....

No so much if a Tchingiz or Hitler with WMDs & the Will to Use Them.....

Or if a Cunning, Diligent Prince like The Talented Mr. Putin, President Prince Vlad the Imprisoner is their adversary or better yet their leader.....

Bottom Line: WMDs and Depraved Sinful Chaos Monkeys on a single planet is not likely to work well long term...

Sustainable Space Colonies need to be setup on/in the Moon and in the Asteroids as a start: Get Humanity's eggs into as many baskets as possible before we destroy the one nest we have now :shock: :roll:

Ideally colony ships should be sent to other uninhabited star systems so that human homes are as far away from each other as possible.......

Otherwise better pray that Jesus, the Mad Mahdi or the Culture shows up to rescue us Depraved Sinful, Egotistical Chaos Monkey Humans......

Better do that anyway........ :idea:
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