Student Daze

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Student Daze

Postby manolo » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:21 am

Folks,

We were in the city the other day and walked amongst a load of students lazing around in the park. They were drinking beer and wine, smoking, flirting with each other, some reading a bit of existentialism, Kerouac or a broadsheet. Sleepy heads in the sun.

Looking at all those young, healthy, folks lolling around made me think of the real meaning of university. It is to be totally free for 3 years or more, laying in bed in the mornings, skipping boring lectures, over-imbibing in stimulants or soporifics, partying all night, arguing about esoterics or the best colour for a Ferrari (a real conversation I heard in the philosophy common room). But, above all it is having all that time when you don’t have to go to some boring 8am-5pm job full of stuffy suits and stultifying, imprisoning, hours.

Three whole years of freedom when we are young and at our most vibrant!

That’s university. Then a quick blast of study in the last part of the last year and come away with a good degree. What’s not to like?

I certainly liked my student daze.

Alex.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:49 pm

:D

Alex,

Ah, the desires of the rich who live in the first world...... ;) I think I better understand some of our differences of opinion now.

I am assuming your field of study was not a serious discipline (serious, subjectively defined as a field as study generally not comprehensible when one is stoned), such as hard science, engineering, or medicine, unless of course you are an extremely gifted individual.

What was your field of study?

Climatology? Law? :)
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Re: Student Daze

Postby Typhoon » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:30 pm

Lucky sod.

My class spent 4 years trying to survive the various prof's assignments and tests: over 100 people in 1st year; end of 4th year 7 graduated.

Grad school was more of the same, only tougher.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby manolo » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:03 pm

Simple Minded wrote::D

Alex,

Ah, the desires of the rich who live in the first world...... ;) I think I better understand some of our differences of opinion now.

I am assuming your field of study was not a serious discipline (serious, subjectively defined as a field as study generally not comprehensible when one is stoned), such as hard science, engineering, or medicine, unless of course you are an extremely gifted individual.

What was your field of study?

Climatology? Law? :)


SM,

I took a surprisingly good degree in philosophy and went on to do research in moral rights theory. Came away with an abiding respect for clear thinking (whatever that is?) and humility in the face of logic and its limitations.

Claim to fame is my philosophy prof studied with Edmund Husserl. :ugeek:

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Re: Student Daze

Postby Endovelico » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:40 am

Typhoon wrote:Lucky sod.

My class spent 4 years trying to survive the various prof's assignments and tests: over 100 people in 1st year; end of 4th year 7 graduated.

Grad school was more of the same, only tougher.


I can't help thinking that's a bit excessive. There must be a better way to encourage excellence without being destructive to over 90% of people.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby manolo » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:04 am

Typhoon wrote:Lucky sod.

My class spent 4 years trying to survive the various prof's assignments and tests: over 100 people in 1st year; end of 4th year 7 graduated.

Grad school was more of the same, only tougher.


Typhoon,

Good grief. :(

When teaching, I used to say to a new class "My aim is to get everyone through this course." OK, this wasn't at uni level, but I think if a student is good enough to get into university there is no reason they can't come out with at least a modest degree, even with the lazing around. :)

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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:17 am

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote::D

Alex,

Ah, the desires of the rich who live in the first world...... ;) I think I better understand some of our differences of opinion now.

I am assuming your field of study was not a serious discipline (serious, subjectively defined as a field as study generally not comprehensible when one is stoned), such as hard science, engineering, or medicine, unless of course you are an extremely gifted individual.

What was your field of study?

Climatology? Law? :)


SM,

I took a surprisingly good degree in philosophy and went on to do research in moral rights theory. Came away with an abiding respect for clear thinking (whatever that is?) and humility in the face of logic and its limitations.

Claim to fame is my philosophy prof studied with Edmund Husserl. :ugeek:

Alex.


Edmund Husserl? The NASCAR driver? :)

I minored in philosophy.

One of my favorite philosophy professors when asked "Bill, what can you tell me about The Great Thinkers (which was a class he thought (Freudian typo, should have been taught))?" He would hesitate a couple seconds, look thoughtful, and say "They're all dead!"

No one here at OTNOT transported back me to philosophy class more than Dioscuri. He constantly reminded me of how, as students, we would try to out-intellectualize each other. One would come up with the phrase "knowledgeless knowledge" and it was game on!

Before you know it we were deep in discussion and throwing around terms like "thoughtless thought" and "experienceless experience," "existenceless existence," "temporal eternity," etc.

Good fun. But definitely not, the mindset you wanted designing the bridges you would drive across, or performing medical procedures on you or your loved ones.

there's a place for everyone........ as long as everyvon stays in zere place! :twisted:
Last edited by Simple Minded on Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:44 am

Typhoon wrote:Lucky sod.

My class spent 4 years trying to survive the various prof's assignments and tests: over 100 people in 1st year; end of 4th year 7 graduated.

Grad school was more of the same, only tougher.


old Klick & Klack joke:
The science major asks "Why does that work?"
The engineering major asks: "How does that work?
The art history major asks: "You want fries with that?"


Some fields require a discipline that others simply have not experienced and may not be able to comprehend. Conditioning requires exercise. Performance requires preparation.

The engineering students at RIT were stunned by the students who were "studying" subjects that did not require effort, study, or the purchase of text books. Photography students and art majors come to mind. Buy, hey, that was their cup of tea, they found their place in the world, so good for them.

My future father-in-law used to criticize his daughter and I when we told him engineering at RIT was a discipline, not a fun vacation. Our reply was "You just don't know." A year after we graduated and married, a poll was published in which students ranked 300 US schools in terms of fun. RIT came in at 298 between Annapolis and West Point, Johns Hopkins Medical school was 300. We showed it to him, he was very quiet.

I think far too many people in the US today will never know what it is like to be pushed beyond their self-imposed, non-extant barriers of laziness by a parent, teacher, coach, or employer. Many of us resemble children who whine, "Mommy, I can't! It's toooooooo hard!"

We want to live in the first world, but we also want to condemn the "Tiger Moms" (or Tiger Teachers/Coaches/Employers) who will produce the doctors who will extend our obese lives, the engineers who design Lasik machines, or the Navy Seals who will allow us to whine without cost..... or the climatologists who will fix MMGW! :lol:

"Rome in the latter stages....?

"The iron ore thinks itself senselessly tortured in the furnace. The tempered blade of fine steel looks back and knows better."

teenagers have a lot in common with iron ore..... :) Except I think the former may be denser....... ;)
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Re: Student Daze

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:54 pm

I think as the internet replaces universities and certified competencies replace degrees much of this will be resolved. The current university system has more in common with its roots in the middle ages than the 21st century.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby manolo » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:53 pm

Simple Minded wrote:

The engineering students at RIT were stunned by the students who were "studying" subjects that did not require effort, study, or the purchase of text books. Photography students and art majors come to mind. Buy, hey, that was their cup of tea, they found their place in the world, so good for them.



SM,

I'm just glad my Art History module encouraged me to buy the reference books. The original Degas and Matisse catalogues and prints on my bookshelves have outperformed stocks by multiples++. An antique dealer visited the other day, glanced over at the shelves and grunted "Bloody Hell!" :shock:

I've had to fit a dehumidifier in the library. :(

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Re: Student Daze

Postby Typhoon » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:01 am

Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Lucky sod.

My class spent 4 years trying to survive the various prof's assignments and tests: over 100 people in 1st year; end of 4th year 7 graduated.

Grad school was more of the same, only tougher.


I can't help thinking that's a bit excessive. There must be a better way to encourage excellence without being destructive to over 90% of people.


It certainly felt so at the time . . . :wink:

On the other hand, one could argue that the profs were doing those students a favour, by getting them to "ring the bell", they went on to more satisfying careers in other fields.

Jobs in the field, the definition of a "job" being a permanent academic position in the minds of the profs*, were very very scarce and still are.

Some of those supposed post grad failures went on to places such as Wall Street and made megamillions, and in some cases, billions

or as one prof with a sense of humour called it, "the revenge of the B students".

*an mathematically impossible prejudice** that was inculcated into the students

**if every prof graduated, on average, more students than the replacement rate of profs one would have exponential growth in the number of academics.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:59 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:

The engineering students at RIT were stunned by the students who were "studying" subjects that did not require effort, study, or the purchase of text books. Photography students and art majors come to mind. Buy, hey, that was their cup of tea, they found their place in the world, so good for them.



SM,

I'm just glad my Art History module encouraged me to buy the reference books. The original Degas and Matisse catalogues and prints on my bookshelves have outperformed stocks by multiples++. An antique dealer visited the other day, glanced over at the shelves and grunted "Bloody Hell!" :shock:

I've had to fit a dehumidifier in the library. :(

Alex.


Alex,

Us 45%ers salute those of you who have attained more wealth than us. :)

But a lot of the 55%ers want to skin you alive...., I would also be leary of many of those 65%ers also....
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Re: Student Daze

Postby Typhoon » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:57 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:

The engineering students at RIT were stunned by the students who were "studying" subjects that did not require effort, study, or the purchase of text books. Photography students and art majors come to mind. Buy, hey, that was their cup of tea, they found their place in the world, so good for them.



SM,

I'm just glad my Art History module encouraged me to buy the reference books. The original Degas and Matisse catalogues and prints on my bookshelves have outperformed stocks by multiples++. An antique dealer visited the other day, glanced over at the shelves and grunted "Bloody Hell!" :shock:

I've had to fit a dehumidifier in the library. :(

Alex.


Well done.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby manolo » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:43 am

Simple Minded wrote:
Us 45%ers salute those of you who have attained more wealth than us. :)

But a lot of the 55%ers want to skin you alive...., I would also be leary of many of those 65%ers also....


SM,

Of course there is envy in the world, and I have found a lot of it amongst those 'socialist' antique dealers. :o It was/is a murky world but if you want the goods you have to rub shoulders and take no prisoners. Antique auction rooms are a kind of university of greed, much like the stock market. :)

A dealer once let slip to me about a prize piece he had seen. I was in his car. When it stopped I calmly got out and walked way. Round the corner I started running across the city, as fast as my legs could carry me, grabbed a cab, raced to dusty shop where the piece was and bought it there and then. The dealer never spoke to me again, in all the years he couldn't manage a smile. :D

Alex.

PS - For anyone interested, there is a Johnny Depp film "The Ninth Gate" which sums up the whole thing beautifully.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:25 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Us 45%ers salute those of you who have attained more wealth than us. :)

But a lot of the 55%ers want to skin you alive...., I would also be leary of many of those 65%ers also....


SM,

Of course there is envy in the world, and I have found a lot of it amongst those 'socialist' antique dealers. :o It was/is a murky world but if you want the goods you have to rub shoulders and take no prisoners. Antique auction rooms are a kind of university of greed, much like the stock market. :)

A dealer once let slip to me about a prize piece he had seen. I was in his car. When it stopped I calmly got out and walked way. Round the corner I started running across the city, as fast as my legs could carry me, grabbed a cab, raced to dusty shop where the piece was and bought it there and then. The dealer never spoke to me again, in all the years he couldn't manage a smile. :D

Alex.

PS - For anyone interested, there is a Johnny Depp film "The Ninth Gate" which sums up the whole thing beautifully.


Alex,

Very well said. Ideology is free, personal loss or gain determines perspective. One man's books are another man's guns, computer, land, house, etc.

Your gain of that treasure, f**ked with his source of income or worse, his sense of self-esteem. People take that very personally. He might have forgiven you sooner if you had just schtupped his wife.

My hard core socialist buddy, refusing my suggestion, to whisper Marx's famous quote (which was his favorite) in his baby daughter's ear repeatedly, was one of the greatest epiphanies I have ever witnessed. "I meant from those other people with abilities...... not me or my own."

:lol: :lol: A friend likes to say "Until you have worked behind the counter of a convenient store for 30 days, you have no idea what humanity is like." I think auctions are also the epitome of humanity!!!

I was pretty sure you were just as human as the rest of us...... ;)

US 45%ers have to decide whether to pride ourselves on oppressing the 55%, or to feel bad about being oppressed by the 44%.... So many perspectives.... how to choose...? ;)
Last edited by Simple Minded on Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:59 pm

Alex,

I rode in a trials event this weekend.

Due to lack of riding lately, and resultant deterioration of skill, I rode in the intermediate class (second lowest). Many of the riders complained about the sections, the organizers, the ribbons, the markers, etc.

I was struck by how when I ride in the higher skilled classes, very few of the riders have the same complaints. In the more skilled classes, almost all criticism is directed at oneself, what one did wrong, and what one could do to improve.

It struck me that even a few trials riders are a reasonable microcosm of society at large.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby manolo » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Simple Minded wrote:I was pretty sure you were just as human as the rest of us...... ;)


SM,

I think the secret of real strength is to only f*** over those who can afford the loss. I knew that this guy could.

Alex.

PS - It goes in the schoolyard too. Never kick down a weaker kid. Bad form and no fun either.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby manolo » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:08 pm

Simple Minded wrote:Alex,

I rode in a trials event this weekend.

Due to lack of riding lately, and resultant deterioration of skill, I rode in the intermediate class (second lowest). Many of the riders complained about the sections, the organizers, the ribbons, the markers, etc.

I was struck by how when I ride in the higher skilled classes, very few of the riders have the same complaints. In the more skilled classes, almost all criticism is directed at oneself, what one did wrong, and what one could do to improve.

It struck me that even a few trials riders are a reasonable microcosm of society at large.


SM,

I'm going to agree with you that the most effective competition is competition with oneself.

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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:36 am

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:I was pretty sure you were just as human as the rest of us...... ;)


SM,

I think the secret of real strength is to only f*** over those who can afford the loss. I knew that this guy could.

Alex.

PS - It goes in the schoolyard too. Never kick down a weaker kid. Bad form and no fun either.


:lol: :lol:

Alex,

Now I KNOW you're just as human as the rest of us. :) You've just entered The Subjective Zone.

Hmmmm.... You've also provided moral rationale to the 50 dudes who don't have 3 hp mopeds to steal your YZF.... and now that you have demonstrated your superior strength..... also the weak dealer dude who does not have the prize piece that you now own.

They KNOW you can afford the loss.

What they don't know is that you are armed.... and that you will frown upon YOUR cyberspace ideology being applied in YOUR real world. :)

If the 99% only take from the 1%.... and the 98% only take from the 2%.... and he 97% only take from the 3%......... and the 50% only take from the 50%...... and the 2% only take from the 98%..... and the 1% only take from the 99%..... things would be more......"fair" for the 100%!

"WE" all know "THEY" can afford it!
Last edited by Simple Minded on Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:41 am

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Alex,

I rode in a trials event this weekend.

Due to lack of riding lately, and resultant deterioration of skill, I rode in the intermediate class (second lowest). Many of the riders complained about the sections, the organizers, the ribbons, the markers, etc.

I was struck by how when I ride in the higher skilled classes, very few of the riders have the same complaints. In the more skilled classes, almost all criticism is directed at oneself, what one did wrong, and what one could do to improve.

It struck me that even a few trials riders are a reasonable microcosm of society at large.


SM,

I'm going to agree with you that the most effective competition is competition with oneself.

Alex.


True enough, all the shades of greed, pride, shame, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of unworthiness, etc. all are internal pains and pleasures that motivate.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby manolo » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:04 pm

Simple Minded wrote:True enough, all the shades of greed, pride, shame, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of unworthiness, etc. all are internal pains and pleasures that motivate.


SM,

Oh dear, now I have to take back my agreeing. :(

Competition with oneself requires none of this baggage and is much the better without it, apart from the accomplishment. Of course we can set ourselves goals to accomplish and work towards them with an easy mind. I've done it.

When teaching I was well aware of the inspiration of students and the pains that so often demotivate.

Alex.
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Re: Student Daze

Postby manolo » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:07 pm

Simple Minded wrote: You've just entered The Subjective Zone.


SM,

Some fancy footwork in that post and only one edit. Impressive. :)

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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:26 am

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: You've just entered The Subjective Zone.


SM,

Some fancy footwork in that post and only one edit. Impressive. :)

Alex.


Alex,

Thanks. Dyslexia is a real bitch.

Don't pick on the special ed kids.

Some would say it is bad form.... kinda like:

manolo wrote:PS - It goes in the schoolyard too. Never kick down a weaker kid. Bad form and no fun either.

:) ;)

Obviously..., picking on the disadvantaged is fun.... ;) But probably not as much fun as playing "the disadvantaged" to rationalize winning tactics.

Serious question: When one assumes the role of "the weaker" to justify tactics, how many victories does it take before one is proven to be "the stronger" feigning weakness?

A friend claims the Special Forces has a saying "If you are in a fair fight, your tactics suck!"
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Re: Student Daze

Postby manolo » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:02 pm

SM,

I'm sorry if I upset you, there was no irony intended. Your post was impressive, and that is high praise coming from me. :)

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Re: Student Daze

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:18 pm

manolo wrote:SM,

I'm sorry if I upset you, there was no irony intended. Your post was impressive, and that is high praise coming from me. :)

Alex.


Alex my friend,

:lol: :lol:

No need to apologize. No offense was taken. I thought I stuffed enough emoticons into that post to make it clear. You're a good man to apologize though.

Even though I do I have dyslexia, I was just playing the Victim Game with you.

Works fantastic on those with empathy. ;) Which is why I think it get employed so often.

Turn about is fair play? Is it not?

Funny how we all desire recognition of our superior intellect, wealth, discernment, taste, sophistication, education, etc. (vanity?), but when there is gain to be realized by playing the fool, the victim, the oppressed, or the disadvantaged..., being recognized for one's "inferiority" doesn't hurt quite so much. :)

Nothing cleanses the conscious of the 40%er who gets accused of victimizing the 60%ers quite as fast as claiming they themselves are the victims of the oppressive 35%ers!

Regarding my posts, as a friend loves to say, when you follow his guidance and it proves to be wrong: "You've known me long enough by now to know better than to listen to anything I say."

So are you still oppressing the poor by owning motorcycles and valuables? ;) :)
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