Sharpshooters vs. Snipers . . .

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Marcus
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Sharpshooters vs. Snipers . . .

Post by Marcus »

Demon of Undoing wrote:Yes, I am familiar with those stories and more. Stories of generations of veterans that were ersatz snipers, but told nobody out of a sense of social preservation. You must understand, the entire story on snipers changed after a guy named Jim Land hit. He and Hathcock, through the shoestring, pre- Vietnam USMC rifle team, were instrumental in putting the narrative on snipers where it is today. Not since Berdan had it been fashionable to even organize like that- and Berdan was a maverick, like Land. Neither officer at the time had an easy go of it.

Yes, critical shots were made, but the British sniper that did not shoot Washington in the back was not violating practice, but conforming to common values held at the time, and since. Does considering sniping unsportsmanlike matter a hill of beans? No. But for many years, the idea of standing off and shooting down an unsuspecting, essentially defenseless man was simply not mainstream. Only war experience changed the notion, and yes, that lesson was re- learned in every war. Sharpshooters, yes. Modern sniper teams, working long range and stalking? No.

Yes, there is a very fine line between a sharpshooter/ DM and a scout/ sniper. Civil War and before was almost totally skirmishers with longer range ( in Europe jaeger types were sometimes issued rifles to work as skirmishers). A man with an accurized rifle situated with line troops, is working as a marksman/ sharpshooter. It is in these two roles that yes, an impact was made. You want to champion accurate rifle fire as an American virtue ( wow, ok), fine. It's had its place. But actual sniping per se - at distance, isolated, forward of lines and cut off from aid, out for precision targets of high value- that's got a very recent history.

Long Carbine was essentially native, would not fight with armies, and was a renegade by nature and reputation. He too was not celebrated as a soldier in his time ( even for a fictional character). Didn't want to shoot men, anyway.


An interesting distinction, DU, and one that hadn't occurred to me. But where do we go with it? Also, what is "DM" above?

You pretty well described Hawkeye . . I'd add that Bumpo was also very much into Christian virtue, constantly contrasting it with the "savage" virtue of his friend Chingachgook. Read them all . . passed them on to our grandkids.
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YMix
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Re: Sharpshooters vs. Snipers . . .

Post by YMix »

Also, what is "DM" above?
Designated marksman.
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Demon of Undoing
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Re: Sharpshooters vs. Snipers . . .

Post by Demon of Undoing »

A marksman/ sharpshooter is handy all the way down to the squad level in virtually any infantry combat. It is expecting a bit much out of the average troop to shoot through an eight inch hole in a wall ( for instance) that houses a machinegun, at 300 yards. If your DM can get some breathing room, it is not too much, by any means. A guy that can actually perform minute of angle shots on demand ( one inch per hundred yards of range) is worth his weight in gold, especially in urban terrain and counterinsurgency missions.

Ibrahim is correct that in those conditions, a woman walking up to a checkpoint with a grenade is indeed a "legitimate" target. It also is exactly the kind of mission a DM might have to deal with. By virtue of having better optics, he can make out minute details easier. Because the patrol leader can have the squad hold fire and have control over one man on one rifle, he can have fine- tuned discrimination as to when the shot comes. He can give her as long as possible to turn back or at least stop and wait for EOD ( these people are sometimes wired). Failing that, he can drop her with one shot from the accurized rifle, perhaps saving some of the explanation a fusillade - riddled body would require for the family.

I would argue that Kyle and Co from Coronado Power and Light are wasted as DMs. Most of his kills happened from high rise buildings in Fallujah is what I gather. They were indeed fulfilling one of the original roles of the SEALs, supporting the Fleet Marine Force in expeditionary deployments, so I guess it's legit. Sort of swatting flies with sledgehammers, but whatever.

Scout/ sniping is more in line with direct action/ long range recon. Super hard stuff, shooting beyond well is a requirement just to get in the door. That sort of a job you don't give to privates, where you might just shuck a DMR on a two- year enlistee. S/S teams by their nature require more maturity, a vastly wider skill set, and above all the ability to think and work independently and with the whole world hunting you. It's a special kind of psychology required.

Thing is, inasmuch as I was aimed at doing this very field by my mentors ( on my insistence), I don't much like it, nor do I like having to deal with the people involved any more. There is an intimacy with a target when you are watching his chest rise and fall with his breath through a high- power scope. You might have crosshairs on him for hours before shooting. In that time, under that close of scrutiny, you get to know him. And then you blast his lights out. It's a lot like murder. " Murder" is a legal justification, so not appropriate, but from Mars, it's gonna look the same. Splitting hairs, but there you go. If you postulate the need for militarize in the modern world, you're a fool not to embrace sniping, but I just feel different now. I'd rather it be sword and buckler in the courtyard.
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