Freedom and controlling ideologies

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:41 am

Simple Minded wrote:That is one of the big bitches with capitalism, that lefties have. Voluntary business transactions mean Jenna Jamerson has a higher income than Mother Teresa.

Reality hurts the opinion we have of what wonderful creatures we are.


i hear it all day every day from some of my circles, their is a certain mindset which absolutely believes in winner takes all politics and controlling everyone to suit a personal agenda.

this is my biggest fear from multiculturism actually, a more extreme version of winner takes all politics with very little shared between the contending sub communities.

something that is impossible to discuss here or anywhere without zombie responses.
noddy
 
Posts: 5499
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:56 pm

noddy wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:That is one of the big bitches with capitalism, that lefties have. Voluntary business transactions mean Jenna Jamerson has a higher income than Mother Teresa.

Reality hurts the opinion we have of what wonderful creatures we are.


i hear it all day every day from some of my circles, their is a certain mindset which absolutely believes in winner takes all politics and controlling everyone to suit a personal agenda.

this is my biggest fear from multiculturism actually, a more extreme version of winner takes all politics with very little shared between the contending sub communities.

something that is impossible to discuss here or anywhere without zombie responses.


I’m still waiting for God or Darwin to supply us with those selfless individuals as an ultimate ideal, and as examples to emulate. Preachers seem loaded with hypocrisy when you see what they practice. At least as humans, we are consistent.

Some of my favorite discussions:
- My UAW brothers who are hard core leftist with GM’s money, or my grandmother’s money if she is buying a car, yet hard core capitalist with their own money.
- My buddy from Ireland, now living in Bermuda, who professes left, yet comes to the US several times each year on social visits and each time ship a ton of stuff to Ireland and Bermuda so he avoid paying for his ideology, and appear super generous to his relatives.
- The college professor or the doctor who says education or health care should be free, yet expects to be paid for practicing their profession.
- The compassionate soul who has no problem forcing the poor and elderly to pay more for food, clothing, housing, and fuel to subsidize education, health care, and pensions for the poor and elderly.
- My leftie European/Canadian friends who choose to live here, rather than in their home lands where people are more virtuous.
- My buddy who quotes Marx for 10+ years, yet when I point out his 16 month old daughter will have “abilities” at the same time I have “needs,” and would he please, please, please instil Marxist values in her, so that, as an adult, she will know I am more entitled to her pay check than she is, decides to never mention Marx again.
- My leftie friends who live in a house that costs 3X more than the national average, and 5X more than the local average and who spend more each month on alcohol than most families do on food.

And that’s just a few lefties that I have known for decades.

“Christianity” as camouflage would also fill volumes. My two favorites are the ad for the person looking for work as a “Christian babysitter” and the parents who are looking for a “Christian babysitter” to hire. “Christian” is more descriptive than “human” I suppose……

Leftie or Rightie seem to have more value as derogatory labels than as descriptors. But that’s what makes the discussions so entertaining. Preaching what we actually practice is dull as hell.

celebrate diversity (between talking and acting)! :P
to refrain from imitation is the best revenge
Simple Minded
 
Posts: 6521
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:24 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:21 pm

Simple Minded wrote:I’m still waiting for God or Darwin to supply us with those selfless individuals as an ultimate ideal, and as examples to emulate.


SM,

I have no shortage of role models in my personal life which fulfil the 'selfless individuals' part of your description. Indeed, I am amazingly fortunate to have both a wife and a daughter who fit my understanding of the term. I don't know about emulation, but they love me, which might count for something.

'Ultimate ideal' is a different thing, probably the focus for religious types but I'm no expert in that field.

Alex.
User avatar
manolo
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:46 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:58 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:I’m still waiting for God or Darwin to supply us with those selfless individuals as an ultimate ideal, and as examples to emulate.


SM,

I have no shortage of role models in my personal life which fulfil the 'selfless individuals' part of your description. Indeed, I am amazingly fortunate to have both a wife and a daughter who fit my understanding of the term. I don't know about emulation, but they love me, which might count for something.

'Ultimate ideal' is a different thing, probably the focus for religious types but I'm no expert in that field.

Alex.


Alex,

That is why the discussions are always entertaining but often pointless. The definitions are subjective and relative. Similar to beauty, only the observer can determine if one's standard is achieved. Never the observee.

I'm pretty sure no two people have ever climbed the same mountain. ;)
to refrain from imitation is the best revenge
Simple Minded
 
Posts: 6521
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:24 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby manolo » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:15 am

Simple Minded wrote:I'm pretty sure no two people have ever climbed the same mountain. ;)


SM,

I'm not one to diss a Sartre quote.

Alex.
User avatar
manolo
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:46 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:09 am

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:I'm pretty sure no two people have ever climbed the same mountain. ;)


SM,

I'm not one to diss a Sartre quote.

Alex.


Jean-Paul, or his brother Fredo? ;)
to refrain from imitation is the best revenge
Simple Minded
 
Posts: 6521
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:24 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:29 am

some animals try and break into the zoo to get at the shelter and food, other animals are desperate to break out of the zoo so they can run freely and live by their own choices.
noddy
 
Posts: 5499
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Typhoon » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:28 pm

Grauniad | How did my communist family get it so wrong? Because politics was their religion

Marxism gave my parents faith to last a lifetime and helped them deny reality.
The left today looks as if it’s also developing into a church.


Apparently, Moscow had more Ph.D.'s per capita than any other city. Many in Marxist-Leninist theory.
Churning out papers and books on the historical inevitability of scientific Marxism.

I wonder what they ended up doing.
All the world's a stage.
User avatar
Typhoon
 
Posts: 14964
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:18 am

Typhoon wrote:
I wonder what they ended up doing.


Climate "Scientists."

Green is the new red.
to refrain from imitation is the best revenge
Simple Minded
 
Posts: 6521
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:24 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:32 pm

Simple Minded wrote:Green is the new red.


and orange is the new black,..but after a while you realize you're just dizzy from the paint fumes. :)

noddy wrote:
i hear it all day every day from some of my circles, their is a certain mindset which absolutely believes in winner takes all politics and controlling everyone to suit a personal agenda.

this is my biggest fear from multiculturism actually, a more extreme version of winner takes all politics with very little shared between the contending sub communities.


Pascal:

"On what shall man found the order of the world which he would govern? Shall it be on the caprice of each individual? What confusion! Shall it be on justice? Man is ignorant of it.
Certainly had he known it, he would not have established this maxim, the most general of all that obtain among men, that each should follow the custom of his own country. The glory of true equity would have brought all nations under subjection, and legislators would not have taken as their model the fancies and caprice of Persians and Germans instead of this unchanging justice. We should have seen it set up in all the States on earth and in all times; whereas we see neither justice nor injustice which does not change its nature with change in climate. Three degrees of latitude reverse all jurisprudence; a meridian decides the truth. Fundamental laws change after a few years of possession; right has its epochs; the entry of Saturn into the Lion marks to us the origin of such and such a crime. A strange justice that is bounded by a river! Truth on this side of the Pyrenees, error on the other side."
User avatar
NapLajoieonSteroids
 
Posts: 2992
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:04 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby noddy » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:44 pm

Pascal wrote:"On what shall man found the order of the world which he would govern? Shall it be on the caprice of each individual? What confusion! Shall it be on justice? Man is ignorant of it.
Certainly had he known it, he would not have established this maxim, the most general of all that obtain among men, that each should follow the custom of his own country. The glory of true equity would have brought all nations under subjection, and legislators would not have taken as their model the fancies and caprice of Persians and Germans instead of this unchanging justice. We should have seen it set up in all the States on earth and in all times; whereas we see neither justice nor injustice which does not change its nature with change in climate. Three degrees of latitude reverse all jurisprudence; a meridian decides the truth. Fundamental laws change after a few years of possession; right has its epochs; the entry of Saturn into the Lion marks to us the origin of such and such a crime. A strange justice that is bounded by a river! Truth on this side of the Pyrenees, error on the other side."


hmm. higher truth.

does anyone believe in that stuff anymore ? its a civilisational confidence thing isnt it ? i seem to remember it vaguely.
noddy
 
Posts: 5499
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Freedom and controlling ideologies

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:51 pm

noddy wrote:
Pascal wrote:"On what shall man found the order of the world which he would govern? Shall it be on the caprice of each individual? What confusion! Shall it be on justice? Man is ignorant of it.
Certainly had he known it, he would not have established this maxim, the most general of all that obtain among men, that each should follow the custom of his own country. The glory of true equity would have brought all nations under subjection, and legislators would not have taken as their model the fancies and caprice of Persians and Germans instead of this unchanging justice. We should have seen it set up in all the States on earth and in all times; whereas we see neither justice nor injustice which does not change its nature with change in climate. Three degrees of latitude reverse all jurisprudence; a meridian decides the truth. Fundamental laws change after a few years of possession; right has its epochs; the entry of Saturn into the Lion marks to us the origin of such and such a crime. A strange justice that is bounded by a river! Truth on this side of the Pyrenees, error on the other side."


hmm. higher truth.

does anyone believe in that stuff anymore ? its a civilisational confidence thing isnt it ? i seem to remember it vaguely.


If Pascal had just said "In the long run, there is no long run, or even any people!" he woulda been a lot more widely read, and had more credibility!

Trying to get those intellectuals to listen is tough!
to refrain from imitation is the best revenge
Simple Minded
 
Posts: 6521
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:24 pm

Previous

Return to Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests