Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
I am not sure your question has been answered, Alex. Your question is an important but a difficult one. It all depends upon what one means by “Christian” and what, exactly is our “nation,” and how the two refer to each other. Those understandings will vary considerably with who you talk to here and typically lack much in depth and insight.
NH has made the point of the dominant influence of Christian attitudes and aspirations on our nation. He is correct. Even the most modern, secular societies are products of Western cultural evolution where the Judeo-Christian traditions played a pivotal role. However, predominant influence may not be the same as identification. While Marxism certainly would not have been possible without the redemptive, socially transformative example of Christianity or the social justice concerns of the Judaic prophetic tradition, a nation that identifies itself as Marxist or Socialist would not necessarily call themselves “Christian,” or “Judaic.”
One could also define identification by the demonstrated values of the nation’s primary enterprises. By their fruits, you will know them sort of thing. In that case, we are the producers of war and armaments and empty, entertaining diversions for the world, while creating wealth for ourselves. This demonstrates the dominant values of power, violence, wealth, and vapid sensuality – what one would be more likely to consider pagan than Christian. Still, most Americans would hardly consider their nation “pagan,” so that definition also falls short.
While in pre-modern societies, the political collective and its religious culture were not separate, the modern “nation” is a political construction, a human artifact, and, as such, its nominal identifications are, in the end, voluntary, consensual political acts. It is ultimately what the nation, its people, and its leadership predominantly chose to identify with.
First off, America cannot be constitutionally declared a “Christian” nation in accordance with the 1st Amendment to the Constitution which states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” This was a pragmatic requirement for the new government over colonies of a variety of religious refugees with different identifications, as well as an historical awareness of how religious fanaticism can make consensual governance impossible from the instructive history of the English Civil War over a century before. This constitutional precedent was reasserted in the new republic in 1796 in the Treaty of Tripoli, which received ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797, and was signed by President John Adams. The treaty stated, “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen (Muslims).” Unless the Bill of Rights is amended and long standing traditions upended, the government cannot identify itself with any religion.
In the USA the religious identification issue is extremely controversial, mostly due to the weakness of our religious culture and education that has led to endless patterns of insipid reaction and counter reaction on assorted issues.
In spite of our apparent religiosity, the state of religious education here is deplorable, and most of the people who thump the Bible the hardest, have little understanding of what they are thumping, much less the complex social, economic, and political challenges over the centuries that brought forth the assorted scriptures they so loudly champion. While asserting the predominant authority of scripture, the Sola Scriptura, as the foundation of a Christian life goes back to Luther, that authority traditionally did not require a literal hermeneutic. American “fundamentalism” is a more recent development as a reactionary response to scientific principles such as evolution and the perceived encroachment of secular aspirations (i.e. Gay Marriage) on a traditional way of life that many people fear is unraveling.
A loud, quite visible group in the secular community respond to religious fundamentalism and assertion with a kind of reactionary atheism that considers religion, particularly Islam, as the root of violence in the world. These people not only have minimal understanding of religion, but they also have very little comprehension of the philosophy of science, have never seriously read Popper or Kuhn, or have any sense of the limitations of reason as elucidated in philosophy as far back as Kant’s “Critique of Pure Reason.”
The paucity of understandings on both sides of the religious/secular divide in this country leads to endless arguments that I find depthless and fatuous.
So, there is no consensual identification for the US at this time, “Christian” or otherwise. We really do not know what we are so we substitute blame and grievance to relieve our poverty and confusion of our identity. A difficult situation that does not have the substance to provide you with any real answer to the question you posed, Alex.
NH has made the point of the dominant influence of Christian attitudes and aspirations on our nation. He is correct. Even the most modern, secular societies are products of Western cultural evolution where the Judeo-Christian traditions played a pivotal role. However, predominant influence may not be the same as identification. While Marxism certainly would not have been possible without the redemptive, socially transformative example of Christianity or the social justice concerns of the Judaic prophetic tradition, a nation that identifies itself as Marxist or Socialist would not necessarily call themselves “Christian,” or “Judaic.”
One could also define identification by the demonstrated values of the nation’s primary enterprises. By their fruits, you will know them sort of thing. In that case, we are the producers of war and armaments and empty, entertaining diversions for the world, while creating wealth for ourselves. This demonstrates the dominant values of power, violence, wealth, and vapid sensuality – what one would be more likely to consider pagan than Christian. Still, most Americans would hardly consider their nation “pagan,” so that definition also falls short.
While in pre-modern societies, the political collective and its religious culture were not separate, the modern “nation” is a political construction, a human artifact, and, as such, its nominal identifications are, in the end, voluntary, consensual political acts. It is ultimately what the nation, its people, and its leadership predominantly chose to identify with.
First off, America cannot be constitutionally declared a “Christian” nation in accordance with the 1st Amendment to the Constitution which states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” This was a pragmatic requirement for the new government over colonies of a variety of religious refugees with different identifications, as well as an historical awareness of how religious fanaticism can make consensual governance impossible from the instructive history of the English Civil War over a century before. This constitutional precedent was reasserted in the new republic in 1796 in the Treaty of Tripoli, which received ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797, and was signed by President John Adams. The treaty stated, “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen (Muslims).” Unless the Bill of Rights is amended and long standing traditions upended, the government cannot identify itself with any religion.
In the USA the religious identification issue is extremely controversial, mostly due to the weakness of our religious culture and education that has led to endless patterns of insipid reaction and counter reaction on assorted issues.
In spite of our apparent religiosity, the state of religious education here is deplorable, and most of the people who thump the Bible the hardest, have little understanding of what they are thumping, much less the complex social, economic, and political challenges over the centuries that brought forth the assorted scriptures they so loudly champion. While asserting the predominant authority of scripture, the Sola Scriptura, as the foundation of a Christian life goes back to Luther, that authority traditionally did not require a literal hermeneutic. American “fundamentalism” is a more recent development as a reactionary response to scientific principles such as evolution and the perceived encroachment of secular aspirations (i.e. Gay Marriage) on a traditional way of life that many people fear is unraveling.
A loud, quite visible group in the secular community respond to religious fundamentalism and assertion with a kind of reactionary atheism that considers religion, particularly Islam, as the root of violence in the world. These people not only have minimal understanding of religion, but they also have very little comprehension of the philosophy of science, have never seriously read Popper or Kuhn, or have any sense of the limitations of reason as elucidated in philosophy as far back as Kant’s “Critique of Pure Reason.”
The paucity of understandings on both sides of the religious/secular divide in this country leads to endless arguments that I find depthless and fatuous.
So, there is no consensual identification for the US at this time, “Christian” or otherwise. We really do not know what we are so we substitute blame and grievance to relieve our poverty and confusion of our identity. A difficult situation that does not have the substance to provide you with any real answer to the question you posed, Alex.
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
kmich,
Thanks for that. In the reading of your post I have realised something about Kant that has puzzled me for years.
Alex.
Thanks for that. In the reading of your post I have realised something about Kant that has puzzled me for years.
Alex.
- Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
.
Muslims to outnumber Christians worldwide by 2070 :
Islam only major religion to increase faster than world’s population
Mosche, whatever it is, it ain't good
.
Muslims to outnumber Christians worldwide by 2070 :
Islam only major religion to increase faster than world’s population
Mosche, whatever it is, it ain't good
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
.
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Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
AdH2DGSXjss
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
I suppose it depend upon what you mean as "Christian."
![Image](http://www.alternet.org/files/screen_shot_2014-05-02_at_2.06.06_pm.png)
![Image](http://www.alternet.org/files/screen_shot_2014-05-02_at_2.02.57_pm.png)
![Image](http://www.alternet.org/files/screen_shot_2014-05-02_at_2.06.06_pm.png)
![Image](http://www.alternet.org/files/screen_shot_2014-05-02_at_2.02.57_pm.png)
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Maybe true, but I have also heard that "God helps those who help themselves!"kmich wrote:I suppose it depend upon what you mean as "Christian."
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
that actually makes for a really good euphemism.
"dont mind me, i was just holding hands with god"
"dont mind me, i was just holding hands with god"
ultracrepidarian
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
God is always ready to lend us a helping hand....
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Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
I was always intrigued by the answer that we are a skeptical nation which adopted Christianity. But our main philosopher (and applied to our theologians!) is Rene Descartes.
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Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Brilliant. Well done. Renews my faith in online interaction.Nonc Hilaire wrote:The god US athiests do not believe in has the characteristics of the Christian God.
Censorship isn't necessary
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
It's more like if you don't believe something to exist, that something does not have any characteristics other than its non-existance.Mr. Perfect wrote:Brilliant. Well done. Renews my faith in online interaction.Nonc Hilaire wrote:The god US athiests do not believe in has the characteristics of the Christian God.
Deep down I'm very superficial
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Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Not really. Long experience causes me to agree with NH, the daddy in the sky God of the Bible lives very much rent free in the minds of western leftists. Particularly the US variety.
Censorship isn't necessary
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Not sure it's the leftis fault. For starters, the Christian God is usually addressed by the faithful as Father and their Christ as His Son. How anthropomorhpic can it get. How does Mother and Her Daughter sound? Creepy.. doesn't it.Mr. Perfect wrote:Not really. Long experience causes me to agree with NH, the daddy in the sky God of the Bible lives very much rent free in the minds of western leftists. Particularly the US variety.
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
Deep down I'm very superficial
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Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Years ago, during a bout of drinking and bullsh*tting with my US colleagues,Parodite wrote:Not sure it's the leftis fault. For starters, the Christian God is usually addressed by the faithful as Father and their Christ as His Son. How anthropomorhpic can it get. How does Mother and Her Daughter sound? Creepy.. doesn't it.Mr. Perfect wrote:Not really. Long experience causes me to agree with NH, the daddy in the sky God of the Bible lives very much rent free in the minds of western leftists. Particularly the US variety.
I came up with a physics "explanation" for the mystery of the so-called Holy Trinity of the Christian god as a superposition of QM eigenstates:
|god> = a|father> + b|son> + c|holy ghost>
wherein a^2, b^2, and c^2 are the probabilities of observing any of the holy states with a^2 + b^2 + c^2 = 1.
The energy projection operator for this system is the Holy Roller Hamiltonian, H_hr, which projects the QM |god> state into one of the three "observable*" holy QM eigenstates: |father>, |son>, or |holy ghost>
*Poetic license here.
H_hr |god> = E_father |father>
H_hr |god> = E_son |son>
H_hr |god> = E_holy_ghost |holy ghost>
wherein E_father, E_son, and E_holy_ghost are the holy energy level of the three states, respectively.
How is that for "quantum weirdness".
The only reason that I did not publish it in the Journal of Irreproducible Results is that some fundamentalist might start citing it as an "explanation".
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Mr. Perfect wrote:Then we all agree.
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Always amused and bemused by the desperate need of fundamentalists, of all religions - both metaphysical and secular, that others perceive things as they do.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Indeed. The main key US Founding Fathers were very much men of the Enlightenment.NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:I was always intrigued by the answer that we are a skeptical nation which adopted Christianity. But our main philosopher (and applied to our theologians!) is Rene Descartes.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Nonc Hilaire wrote:The god US athiests do not believe in has the characteristics of the Christian God.
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist,
a woman in the audience stood up and said,
'Yes, that's all well and fine,
but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?
~ Quentin Crisp
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Could be. In this case though it is obvious that seculars let a false God live in their heads rent free. I certainly don't make them.Typhoon wrote:Mr. Perfect wrote:Then we all agree.
Always amused and bemused by the desperate need of fundamentalists, of all religions - both metaphysical and secular, that others perceive things as they do.
Censorship isn't necessary
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
VanderfoolTyphoon wrote:Years ago, during a bout of drinking and bullsh*tting with my US colleagues,Parodite wrote:Not sure it's the leftis fault. For starters, the Christian God is usually addressed by the faithful as Father and their Christ as His Son. How anthropomorhpic can it get. How does Mother and Her Daughter sound? Creepy.. doesn't it.Mr. Perfect wrote:Not really. Long experience causes me to agree with NH, the daddy in the sky God of the Bible lives very much rent free in the minds of western leftists. Particularly the US variety.
I came up with a physics "explanation" for the mystery of the so-called Holy Trinity of the Christian god as a superposition of QM eigenstates:
|god> = a|father> + b|son> + c|holy ghost>
wherein a^2, b^2, and c^2 are the probabilities of observing any of the holy states with a^2 + b^2 + c^2 = 1.
The energy projection operator for this system is the Holy Roller Hamiltonian, H_hr, which projects the QM |god> state into one of the three "observable*" holy QM eigenstates: |father>, |son>, or |holy ghost>
*Poetic license here.
H_hr |god> = E_father |father>
H_hr |god> = E_son |son>
H_hr |god> = E_holy_ghost |holy ghost>
wherein E_father, E_son, and E_holy_ghost are the holy energy level of the three states, respectively.
How is that for "quantum weirdness".
The only reason that I did not publish it in the Journal of Irreproducible Results is that some fundamentalist might start citing it as an "explanation".
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
Comparable with "me, myself and I". Three eigenstates for the price of one!
Deep down I'm very superficial
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Only in your imagination.Mr. Perfect wrote:Could be. In this case though it is obvious that seculars let a false God live in their heads rent free. I certainly don't make them.Typhoon wrote:Mr. Perfect wrote:Then we all agree.
Always amused and bemused by the desperate need of fundamentalists, of all religions - both metaphysical and secular, that others perceive things as they do.
This is a common canard used by believers in the metaphysical to console themselves regarding the indifference to their beliefs by atheists..
The only time I think about the Christian version of a god is reading this forum. Outside of this forum I never think about any version of gods
The real universe is, to me, far far more interesting than any conjectured metaphysical one.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Typhoon, I suspect you often think of love, mercy, righteousness, justice, charity outside of this forum. Perhaps even temperance on rare occasions.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
I hope that I do. Probably less than I should.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Typhoon, I suspect you often think of love, mercy, righteousness, justice, charity outside of this forum.
However, when I do, it has nothing to do with with a metaphysical deity.
In the restricted sense, usually the morning after . . .Perhaps even temperance on rare occasions.
In the general sense, a lack of is one of my many character flaws.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Is America a "Christian" Nation?
Only by personal experience.Typhoon wrote: Only in your imagination.
Censorship isn't necessary