Postmodernism and Critical Theory. Or why the Empress has no clothes.

[Mr. Perfect]

Its not even a legal question. Contemporary racists (or cunning satirists pretending to be racists) demand total immunity from any consequence for their statements. So aside from there being no legal repercussions, they don't seem to think anybody should be able to take issue with them at all. The alt-right troll demands a consequence-free "safe space" as large as any hyperprogressive Tumblr teen.

Kids today.

What would be an example of that.

[Mr. Perfect]

Relevant to our original topic: the fact that many in this movement are misguided teens or cynical trolls, it stands to reason that their philosophical terminology might not always be accurate or coherent.

If you get to use terminology inaccurately or incoherently you have to let other people do it.

[Simple Minded]

It's official, Jesus will be here any minute.

koPmuEyP3a0

My wife saw this ad and said to me "You're not buying any more Gillette products. I like my real man. I'm glad we have toxic men."
to which I replied "Yes dear. Whatever you say."

[Nonc Hilaire]

Cultural Marxism began with The Frankfort School communists who escaped persecution in Nazi Germany. Hitler sent them to concentration camps because they were fully anti-society in any form.

They arrived in the US post-war golden age and were frustrated that the proletariat was not sufficiently oppressed or interested in revolution. Americans just wanted to drink, bowl, drive and screw. And they were very pleased with capitalism.

The Frankfort School decided the Western culture must be subverted and destroyed to usher in the revolution. Cultural Marxism is nihilistic, destructive and depressive.

[Mr. Perfect]

They are winning.

[Nonc Hilaire]

They are winning.

No, they are overreaching. The problem is Trump is using their own methods against them and they have no defenses.

[Ibrahim]

Cultural Marxism began with The Frankfort School communists who escaped persecution in Nazi Germany. Hitler sent them to concentration camps because they were fully anti-society in any form.

Let's see who these Frankfurt School monsters were:

The Frankfurt School were:
Max Horkheimer
Theodor W. Adorno
Herbert Marcuse
Friedrich Pollock
Erich Fromm
Otto Kirchheimer
Leo Löwenthal
Franz Leopold Neumann
Henryk Grossman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt ... #Theorists



Ok, a true rogue's gallery. Now let's see if there's anything these dangerous theorists have in common that might have upset Her Hitler.

Horkheimer was born into a conservative, wealthy Orthodox Jewish family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Horkheimer#Early_life

Theodor W. Adorno [...] the only child of Oscar Alexander Wiesengrund (1870–1946) and Maria Calvelli-Adorno della Piana (1865–1952). His mother, a devout Catholic from Corsica, was once a professional singer, while his father, an assimilated Jew who had converted to Protestantism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_W ... and_career

Herbert Marcuse was born July 19, 1898, in Berlin, to Carl Marcuse and Gertrud Kreslawsky. His family was Jewish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_M ... Early_life

Friedrich Pollock was born to a leather factory owner in Freiburg im Breisgau. Pollock's Jewish-born father turned away from Judaism, and raised his son accordingly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Pollock#Life

Erich Fromm was born on March 23, 1900, at Frankfurt am Main, the only child of Orthodox Jewish parents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Fromm#Life

Otto Kirchheimer [...] was a German jurist of Jewish ancestry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Kirchheimer

Born in Frankfurt as the son of assimilated Jews (his father was a physician)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Löwenthal#Life

Franz Leopold Neumann [...] was a German-Jewish political activist, Western Marxist theorist and labor lawyer,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Leopold_Neumann

Grossman was born as Chaskel Grossman into a relatively prosperous Jewish family in Kraków

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henryk_Gr ... _education


Are we sure they were "anti-society in any form?" Because they look like a bunch of lefty bookworms and cultural critics who happened to be ethnically Jewish. Helps explain why these guys were so unpopular with Nazis then and neo-nazis now.


But wait, there's more:

In contemporary usage, the term Cultural Marxism identifies a conspiracy theory that misrepresents the Frankfurt School as part of continual academic and intellectual efforts to destroy Western culture, to be replaced with Marxist culture.[49] In the late 1990s, the Cultural Marxism conspiracy claimed that the Marxist intellectuals of the Frankfurt School were in conspiracy against the societies of the Western world, by undermining the value system of traditionalist conservatism with the Counterculture of the 1960s, the social equality of progressive politics, the racial equality of multiculturalism, and linguistic political correctness.[50][51] In the U.S., the conspiracy ideology of Cultural Marxism is particular to paleoconservative politicians, such as Paul Weyrich, William S. Lind, and Patrick Buchanan, and among like-minded politicians of the alt-right and white nationalist organisations, such as the neo-reactionary Dark Enlightenment.[52]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt ... acy_theory

Well if you can't trust Paul Weyrich when it comes to the history of critical theory in the mid-20th century when who can you trust?

[noddy]

no need to look for any conspiracies on it , its a publicly stated goal (with proud membership) of all left leaning parties in the anglosphere and has british, not jewish origins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

they get a bit cooky from time to time, steralizing the riff raff, things like that.

[Mr. Perfect]

When something is happening out in the open it's not a conspiracy by definition.

[noddy]

well, the term "cultural marxist" is a bit of a clunker - reused and reusable by anyone wanting to exploit the inherit ickyness of calling someone a marxist, righties do abuse it just like lefties abuse the word fascist.

it would be nice if we had new words for modern arguments instead of clunky reuse of 100 year old european factions that have morphed beyond recognition.

anyway, its open and stated policy from the fabians (and their ilk) they want most of the same goals as the marxists, the difference is they think the failure was too much too fast and the process should happen incrementally via cultural takeover of the institutions.

[Ibrahim]

no need to look for any conspiracies on it , its a publicly stated goal (with proud membership) of all left leaning parties in the anglosphere and has british, not jewish origins.

I'm not saying the term has Jewish origins I'm saying it has antisemitic origins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

they get a bit cooky from time to time, steralizing the riff raff, things like that.

The word your looking for here is "socialist." The Fabian society, Orwell, Jeremy Corbyn. These are British socialists. "Cultural Marxist" is a Nazi propaganda term that blamed cultural "degeneracy" on secret plots by the evil Marxist Jews, and its been dredged up again for modern usage by the fringe right.


"Fascist" is another term coined around the same time as "cultural marxist," except that it was enthusiastically self-applied.

[Mr. Perfect]

I'm not saying the term has Jewish origins I'm saying it has antisemitic origins.

And again, it doesn't matter, it's like saying rockets have antisemitic origins.

The word your looking for here is "socialist." The Fabian society, Orwell, Jeremy Corbyn. These are British socialists. "Cultural Marxist" is a Nazi propaganda term that blamed cultural "degeneracy" on secret plots by the evil Marxist Jews, and its been dredged up again for modern usage by the fringe right.

Again false, Cultural Marxism is a term used by the entire right all the time and this ideology has been well documented and the term fits it very nicely.

[noddy]

progressive puritans ?
authoritarian monoculturists ?
wankers ?

im sure their must be a more modern term for it that avoids godwin.,

[Parodite]

It really helps to start with asking what people mean when they say they consider themselves a socialist, Marxist, communist, social democrat, democrat socialist. Or libertarian, conservative, right-wing, left-wing. Any self-identifying label used by anybody.

Only after hearing out a self-identifier, and I would say spend some ordinary human time with him/her to get a more accurate feel about somebody and much needed context..it is possible to apply a label to another person that is different as it just adds or contrasts it with your own opinions and dictionary of labels.

In the process it probably turns out that the self-applied label "socialist" means something very different hundred years ago, or even only ten years. And even today in different places depending who you ask. Berney Sanders may call himself a socialist, he rejects the idea of a working class owning the means of production. He in fact is more similar to a contemporary European social democrat; a strong social agenda, strong workers unions, strong imposing government yet democratic, free market capitalist to the core, but with a gvt hungry to always control the market with ever expanding regulations. Or in reality: regulations and "deregulation" that favor an elite class with political power and big corp interests: oligarchy, technocracy and bureaucratic quasi democracy EU-style. Nothing socialist about all that IMO. Just the same types of monopolies of power and money emerging over time, irrespective of ideals and utopias chased after.

[Simple Minded]

progressive puritans ?
authoritarian monoculturists ?
wankers ?

im sure their must be a more modern term for it that avoids godwin.,

You have set yourself on a very worthy quest my friend. One that will no doubt benefit all of humanity.

liberal, compassionate, condescending, liberating oppressors? nah, too clunky.

I like progressive puritans cause it exposes their desire to move society forward by imposing purity standards, which of course are exclusionary. But, I think Colonel Sun nailed it with Progressive Regressives (PR's). I think history proves the best way to move society forward is to try to replicate the past.

another plus is, once they gain power PR allows for factionalizing into tidy sub grouping and type casts such as Oppressive PR's, Aggressive PR's, Suggestive PR's, Impressive PR's, Expressive PR's, Objective PR's, Reflective PR's, Selective PR's, Obsessive PR's, etc.

Problem is with the internet and weapons of intellectual mass destruction such as wikipedia, self-styled intellectuals can re-write everything at light speed.

It's too hard now to know what's what, and who's who. I miss the good ole days of face to face personal insults. the era of Screw you! Blow me! Eat my shorts! Yo mama! Go f**k yerself! was when human culture peaked IMSMO.

[Simple Minded]

It really helps to start with asking what people mean when they say they consider themselves a socialist, Marxist, communist, social democrat, democrat socialist. Or libertarian, conservative, right-wing, left-wing. Any self-identifying label used by anybody.

Only after hearing out a self-identifier, and I would say spend some ordinary human time with him/her to get a more accurate feel about somebody and much needed context..it is possible to apply a label to another person that is different as it just adds or contrasts it with your own opinions and dictionary of labels.

In the process it probably turns out that the self-applied label "socialist" means something very different hundred years ago, or even only ten years. And even today in different places depending who you ask. Berney Sanders may call himself a socialist, he rejects the idea of a working class owning the means of production. He in fact is more similar to a contemporary European social democrat; a strong social agenda, strong workers unions, strong imposing government yet democratic, free market capitalist to the core, but with a gvt hungry to always control the market with ever expanding regulations. Or in reality: regulations and "deregulation" that favor an elite class with political power and big corp interests: oligarchy, technocracy and bureaucratic quasi democracy EU-style. Nothing socialist about all that IMO. Just the same types of monopolies of power and money emerging over time, irrespective of ideals and utopias chased after.

What? Getting to know someone before labeling them? Thou speaketh Internet Heresy!

They are gonna be coming for you and your people. Well said though.

[Simple Minded]

progressive puritans ?
authoritarian monoculturists ?
wankers ?

im sure their must be a more modern term for it that avoids godwin.,

here is the crux of the problem:

in the past when you couldn't get along with your siblings, Mom or Dad would beat you, separate the incorrigible herd to separate stalls, and possibly subject all of you to tedious physical labor that no one liked.

Now, the preferred solution is the get-along shirt. the internet and social media was supposed to be a big world wide get-along shirt for all of humanity.

the jury is still out

[Ibrahim]

I'm not saying the term has Jewish origins I'm saying it has antisemitic origins.

And again, it doesn't matter, it's like saying rockets have antisemitic origins.

Or gas chambers disguised as showers, I guess.

The word your looking for here is "socialist." The Fabian society, Orwell, Jeremy Corbyn. These are British socialists. "Cultural Marxist" is a Nazi propaganda term that blamed cultural "degeneracy" on secret plots by the evil Marxist Jews, and its been dredged up again for modern usage by the fringe right.

Again false, Cultural Marxism is a term used by the entire right all the time and this ideology has been well documented and the term fits it very nicely.

Another troubling sign of the influence of alt-righters and neo-nazis on the GOP base. And anyway I understand what you are trying to say when you misuse these terms. You just mean socialists and progressives, but you want it to sound scarier so you're unwittingly misusing old Nazi propaganda you've learned from alt-right YouTube videos.

Which is to say you're successfully communicating your opinions, and that should be the goal of all language. I just thought the actual history of the term and origins might be relevant in the "Philosophy" subforum.

But if you don't care you don't care. Reuse all the terms you want. "Untermensch" "Kampfzeit" "Lügenpresse" Don't let history and fact limit your preferred terminology.

[Ibrahim]

In the process it probably turns out that the self-applied label "socialist" means something very different hundred years ago, or even only ten years. And even today in different places depending who you ask. Berney Sanders may call himself a socialist, he rejects the idea of a working class owning the means of production. He in fact is more similar to a contemporary European social democrat

Surely social democracy is a form of socialism. You're right that this is certainly what most contemporary people mean if they are advocating "socialism." Free at point of access medical care for all citizens, strong labor unions, etc. Not Maoism.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

My wife saw this ad and said to me "You're not buying any more Gillette products. I like my real man. I'm glad we have toxic men."
to which I replied "Yes dear. Whatever you say."

1vUq5fKTtm4

[Mr. Perfect]

Or gas chambers disguised as showers, I guess.

You guess what.

Another troubling sign of the influence of alt-righters and neo-nazis on the GOP base. And anyway I understand what you are trying to say when you misuse these terms. You just mean socialists and progressives, but you want it to sound scarier so you're unwittingly misusing old Nazi propaganda you've learned from alt-right YouTube videos.

Which is to say you're successfully communicating your opinions, and that should be the goal of all language. I just thought the actual history of the term and origins might be relevant in the "Philosophy" subforum.

But if you don't care you don't care. Reuse all the terms you want. "Untermensch" "Kampfzeit" "Lügenpresse" Don't let history and fact limit your preferred terminology.

This works as a good springboard.

I personally have a number of segments of the left, which include the following:

HRC Ted Kennedy Nancy Pelosi big government corporate liberalism. The fusion of big business with government vote buying programs, and you get to abort your accidental knockups, have mistresses etc. You get to pretend that you care about the environment while you fly big jets around, you care about women while paying them 20% less and so on.

Bernie Sanders Occasio Cortez poor deluded wannabe Venezuela/Castro socialists who struggle to count on their fingers and toes.

The current SJW-Cultural Marxist.

Lets start with that. The rise of the SJW in the last several years is behind the surge in counter protesting, you appear to be brand new to politics, as such you are not aware of the history of opposing Cultural Marxism in America, going back as far as my memory. I probably heard it first in the 1980's sometime, and of course Rush Limbaugh said everything there was to say about it by 1995.

The problem with the SJW-Cultural Marxist is that the left is like the bad guys in the Matrix. You might have a crowd of reasonable Democrats milling around in the plaza, but at any time they will surrender their autonomy to the most radical among them, these days it's the SJW Cultural Marxists (it used to Soviet Communists).

Case in point, only a little over 8 years ago both obama and HRC had run against gay marriage and zero Democrat voters complained about it, now they along with every Democrat elected in Washington they are for sex changes down to little kids.

Also your talking points remind me of an old truth about leftists, when you describe them accurately they accuse you of smearing them.

[Mr. Perfect]

Surely social democracy is a form of socialism. You're right that this is certainly what most contemporary people mean if they are advocating "socialism." Free at point of access medical care for all citizens, strong labor unions, etc. Not Maoism.

There is no free health care system anywhere in the world, its all paid by private dollars or taxes. Just another lie socialists tell.

[Mr. Perfect]

It really helps to start with asking what people mean when they say they consider themselves a socialist, Marxist, communist, social democrat, democrat socialist. Or libertarian, conservative, right-wing, left-wing. Any self-identifying label used by anybody.

Only after hearing out a self-identifier, and I would say spend some ordinary human time with him/her to get a more accurate feel about somebody and much needed context..it is possible to apply a label to another person that is different as it just adds or contrasts it with your own opinions and dictionary of labels.

In the process it probably turns out that the self-applied label "socialist" means something very different hundred years ago, or even only ten years. And even today in different places depending who you ask. Berney Sanders may call himself a socialist, he rejects the idea of a working class owning the means of production. He in fact is more similar to a contemporary European social democrat; a strong social agenda, strong workers unions, strong imposing government yet democratic, free market capitalist to the core, but with a gvt hungry to always control the market with ever expanding regulations. Or in reality: regulations and "deregulation" that favor an elite class with political power and big corp interests: oligarchy, technocracy and bureaucratic quasi democracy EU-style. Nothing socialist about all that IMO. Just the same types of monopolies of power and money emerging over time, irrespective of ideals and utopias chased after.

Bernie Sanders is closer to Venezuela than Europe.

[Parodite]

In the process it probably turns out that the self-applied label "socialist" means something very different hundred years ago, or even only ten years. And even today in different places depending who you ask. Berney Sanders may call himself a socialist, he rejects the idea of a working class owning the means of production. He in fact is more similar to a contemporary European social democrat

Surely social democracy is a form of socialism. You're right that this is certainly what most contemporary people mean if they are advocating "socialism." Free at point of access medical care for all citizens, strong labor unions, etc. Not Maoism.

Indeed.

[Parodite]

Bernie Sanders is closer to Venezuela than Europe.

I don't know enough about Venezuela but I would rank it closer to failed states where a dictatorship/elite enriches itself by steeling national resources, engaging in corrupt and criminal activity. Giving free hand-outs i.e. meaningless words/chants or little presents to a disenfranchised and struggling population to keep them quiet and happy for as long as they do. Until the economy is wrecked and the ship goes down. Hardly any oil revenues were used to invest in the country and its people. But there no doubt is more complexity to Venezuela and its downfall.