Which God?

[Mr. Perfect]

Now you're talking.

From the other thread, I have discovered the following. In many years of congregating, in the many congregations I've congregated in, with all the congregators I've congregated with in doing my churching, it seems to boil down to the following.

50% of the crowd is there for the wrong reasons, social climbing, safety of the herd, conforming to family, etc. However the other 50% are there because of this.

1. Creation/reality needs a creator/God
2. Morality requires a God, that is objective morality is an invisible higher power
3. God has interacted with them

This is the sum of my experience. There are many ancillary arguments and forces that go along with it but these are the fundamentals, in the sum of my experience and research.

[Mr. Perfect]

my track record of choices leans more towards chaotic evolution than intelligent design, thats for sure.

Or a fallen world.

[Mr. Perfect]

They say the lord works in mysterious ways.

maybe it's god's will.

some would say god made noddy that way.

........

Others would say God made noddy with the ability to choose.

[Simple Minded]

Now you're talking.

From the other thread, I have discovered the following. In many years of congregating, in the many congregations I've congregated in, with all the congregators I've congregated with in doing my churching, it seems to boil down to the following.

50% of the crowd is there for the wrong reasons, social climbing, safety of the herd, conforming to family, etc. However the other 50% are there because of this.

1. Creation/reality needs a creator/God
2. Morality requires a God, that is objective morality is an invisible higher power
3. God has interacted with them

This is the sum of my experience. There are many ancillary arguments and forces that go along with it but these are the fundamentals, in the sum of my experience and research.

Alright Mr. P. You've boiled it down to simple minded terms. I concur. You percentages are probably +/- 15%, but it rings true in my experiences.

There are those who seem to have experienced a genuine epiphany and are better people because of it. Then there are the others who use religion as camouflage or as a "get out of Hell" free card.

The former make you think it is a good deal, the latter serve as excellent reasons to avoid that particular herd. Christianity would be a much easier sell, and have a much bigger congregation, if you could get half of the card carrying self-professed Christians to STFU. The latter group brings to mind the old saying "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you say." or in the other form "What you are speaks so loudly, I can not hear what you say."

Those who preach what they practice, and their brethren who practice what they preach, are alway more agreeable.

[noddy]

the problem with all that is you are left with "good people go to heaven" and the religion of choice doesnt really matter.

once you make the religion matter, and who is getting worshiped for what, then things get more complicated and start smelling all tribal and human.

[Simple Minded]

the problem with all that is you are left with "good people go to heaven" and the religion of choice doesnt really matter.

once you make the religion matter, and who is getting worshiped for what, then things get more complicated and start smelling all tribal and human.

Bingo, er, uh, I mean amen!

Religion as group identity, social glue, a tool of projecting/maintaining wealth and power for "us", or religion as a personal experience/practice to help "me" deal with life and become a better person.

In my experience, Big R Religion, and little r religion have little in common. It's down to the whole group identity thang again.

What does a Christian, or a black, or a democrat, or a Asian think? Dunno, all the ones I've ever met seem like individuals. It is not that difficult for some to remove much of their interpretation from the perception. For others, "Eh, they're all like that!"

[Parodite]

Now you're talking.

From the other thread, I have discovered the following. In many years of congregating, in the many congregations I've congregated in, with all the congregators I've congregated with in doing my churching, it seems to boil down to the following.

50% of the crowd is there for the wrong reasons, social climbing, safety of the herd, conforming to family, etc. However the other 50% are there because of this.

1. Creation/reality needs a creator/God
2. Morality requires a God, that is objective morality is an invisible higher power
3. God has interacted with them

This is the sum of my experience. There are many ancillary arguments and forces that go along with it but these are the fundamentals, in the sum of my experience and research.

I became a bit less judgmental about what other people believe/not believe, at least i'm trying. Getting older also helps.

To mind-read others is a daunting task. My handicapped guess is that many believers believe what they believe because of their upbringing in family and through culture plus the human predicament in general of suffering, with death waiting at the end of every road.

That people want to be part of a herd for protection and social well being is not a bad thing, or doesn't need to be. Our nature is tribal first, and universal moral code comes only second as an ideal or the "one day we will all be brethern" type.

I'm of the (e) + caveat(2) type: sort of a religious agnostic doing a moon walk. Which means in my case that no holy book, no philosophy, no talk about God/religion/meaning that informs itself from a 3rd person perspective and is communicated from a 3rd person perspective (included for instance deep thinkahs like Jordan Peterson who also rants 3rd personally obsessively, albeit in an interesting way)..provides me with much value in the religious space.

Science, as an extension of the empirical senses is to me the only valuable investigator-communicator in the 3rd person world, the public domain. But as said, science is completely impotent when it comes to 1st person conscious reality. But that is not science's fault: it just is how it is. I do suspect though that experience-independent reality leaves its fingerprints in our experiential 1st person reality through mathematics. Lost in translation but the math prevails.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Now you're talking.

From the other thread, I have discovered the following. In many years of congregating, in the many congregations I've congregated in, with all the congregators I've congregated with in doing my churching, it seems to boil down to the following.

50% of the crowd is there for the wrong reasons, social climbing, safety of the herd, conforming to family, etc. However the other 50% are there because of this.

1. Creation/reality needs a creator/God
2. Morality requires a God, that is objective morality is an invisible higher power
3. God has interacted with them

This is the sum of my experience. There are many ancillary arguments and forces that go along with it but these are the fundamentals, in the sum of my experience and research.

Alright Mr. P. You've boiled it down to simple minded terms. I concur. You percentages are probably +/- 15%, but it rings true in my experiences.

There are those who seem to have experienced a genuine epiphany and are better people because of it. Then there are the others who use religion as camouflage or as a "get out of Hell" free card.

The former make you think it is a good deal, the latter serve as excellent reasons to avoid that particular herd. Christianity would be a much easier sell, and have a much bigger congregation, if you could get half of the card carrying self-professed Christians to STFU. The latter group brings to mind the old saying "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you say." or in the other form "What you are speaks so loudly, I can not hear what you say."

Those who preach what they practice, and their brethren who practice what they preach, are alway more agreeable.

rQ0Hj-EL6jE

For the last ninety seconds of silence because 78's don't go on longer that about two and a half minutes, here's a thought: Creation doesn't require a God, we require a God to make sense of creation. If we don't have a God to establish a basis for morality and purpose in creation, our minds will return a 404 File Not Found to our genetic and evolutionary root directory and that just may do it for us as a species......'>........

[Simple Minded]

For the last ninety seconds of silence because 78's don't go on longer that about two and a half minutes, here's a thought: Creation doesn't require a God, we require a God to make sense of creation. If we don't have a God to establish a basis for morality and purpose in creation, our minds will return a 404 File Not Found to our genetic and evolutionary root directory and that just may do it for us as a species......'>........

I can agree that line of thought can/does carry a lot of weight with some people. Here's some additional bonuses:
1. Judgement day, with the resultant Heaven or Hell is a very satisfying psychological sequel to a life that often sees bad people apparently prosper.
2. An all powerful God who sees and knows all just might make some people behave better than they would if they thought he did not exist.
3. Cosmic justice just plain seems right. Everyone understands the carrot and the stick.

When my mother's attempts to get my brothers and/or I to "toe the line" were unsuccessful, a simple rolling of the eyes and uttering of the phrase "OK, then. Just wait until your father gets home!" was all it took for us to behave like angels..... and pray like hell that she would forget/forgive our trespasses before he got home. Appeals to one's humanity sometimes only get so much attention.

I think there is a saying in German which translates into "The certainty of pain is easier to bear than the pain of uncertainty."

[noddy]

If you believe for practical, truthy reasons instead of actually believing , isnt that just the "cultural christian" vaguely defined, borderline atheist modern thing.

[Mr. Perfect]

Not necessarily, no.

[Mr. Perfect]

I think you are missing some things.

I can agree that line of thought can/does carry a lot of weight with some people. Here's some additional bonuses:
1. Judgement day, with the resultant Heaven or Hell is a very satisfying psychological sequel to a life that often sees bad people apparently prosper.

I think that many Christians are not assured of their salvation. This is actually a negative toward being Christian.

2. An all powerful God who sees and knows all just might make some people behave better than they would if they thought he did not exist.

Leading to...

3. Cosmic justice just plain seems right. Everyone understands the carrot and the stick.

There is something other than the carrot and the stick. It's spelled out in the teachings of Jesus.

When my mother's attempts to get my brothers and/or I to "toe the line" were unsuccessful, a simple rolling of the eyes and uttering of the phrase "OK, then. Just wait until your father gets home!" was all it took for us to behave like angels..... and pray like hell that she would forget/forgive our trespasses before he got home. Appeals to one's humanity sometimes only get so much attention.

I think there is a saying in German which translates into "The certainty of pain is easier to bear than the pain of uncertainty."

This is worthy of it's own book, it may already exist but I don't know what it's called.

If you decide to curse you are vulgar. If you decide to sleep around you are a lecher. If you take things that don't belong to you you are a thief. If you lie to get ahead in life you become a liar.

Nobody is watching, it is the natural consequence of your decisions words and actions. You become what you say do think and believe. That is what defines you, and you transmit it to people all around you whether you are aware or not.

If you don't want to be those things, if you want to be virtuous lovely and of good report you need to study out and find out what you need to do to become that way. It's natural consequences as opposed to rewards and punishments. We've all met people who radiate goodness and evil without doing much of anything, it is the sum of their life. We are fourth dimensional beings, we are integrals from calculus in that we are the sum of everything we've done before.

[Mr. Perfect]

rQ0Hj-EL6jE

Church is not for the perfect, it is for the imperfect.

However that is the challenge, when you go to church many are rowing in the right direction, many are rowing in the wrong direction. That's just mortality.

For the last ninety seconds of silence because 78's don't go on longer that about two and a half minutes, here's a thought: Creation doesn't require a God, we require a God to make sense of creation.

Opinions vary.

If we don't have a God to establish a basis for morality and purpose in creation, our minds will return a 404 File Not Found to our genetic and evolutionary root directory and that just may do it for us as a species......'>........

Some say yes, that is the case.

[Mr. Perfect]

the problem with all that is you are left with "good people go to heaven" and the religion of choice doesnt really matter.

Depends on the religion. Christianity requires an oath of commitment if you will.

once you make the religion matter, and who is getting worshiped for what, then things get more complicated and start smelling all tribal and human.

Christianity has proven to be very adaptable to local customs.

[Simple Minded]

This is worthy of it's own book, it may already exist but I don't know what it's called.

Nobody is watching, it is the natural consequence of your decisions words and actions. You become what you say do think and believe. That is what defines you, and you transmit it to people all around you whether you are aware or not.

If you don't want to be those things, if you want to be virtuous lovely and of good report you need to study out and find out what you need to do to become that way. It's natural consequences as opposed to rewards and punishments. We've all met people who radiate goodness and evil without doing much of anything, it is the sum of their life. We are fourth dimensional beings, we are integrals from calculus in that we are the sum of everything we've done before.

I could not agree with you more Mr. P. Listening to someone proselytize is a very poor substitute for looking them in the eye.

The words of the person who preaches the commercially available version of Big R Religion are of little interest to me, simply because, usually, I've already read their guide book(s) myself.

Of infinitely more interest is looking the individual in the eye, and hearing their own personal tale of how their belief system has influenced their life, including behavior and thought processes. Big R Religion is often political, financial, and institutional machinations.

Little r religion (philosophy for the last of a better word) is where the rubber hits the road. Big P commercial Philosophy has the same problems as big R Religion.

Individual actions carry more weight in my book. Charitable donations and helping others is a very reliable indicator of good character in my book. Going to church and preaching to others, not so much.

A Heaven filled with church goers and proselytizers will be a very different place than the Heaven filled with people who shovel snow out of their elderly neighbor's driveways. I often recall my crusty old fart buddy saying "It's gonna be a hell of a Heaven when all these hypocrites get there!"

I think you would enjoy James Allen's As a Man Thinketh, Mediations by Marcus Aurelius, and The Imitation of Christ by Thomas A' Kempis. Or for the same information in a very different flavor, pick up Carlos Castaneda's books. Extra dimensions included at no cost.

Divine guidance, or practical wisdom? Only the reader/practitioner can determine for themselves. Sounds like free will to me.

[Mr. Perfect]

A Heaven filled with church goers and proselytizers will be a very different place than the Heaven filled with people who shovel snow out of their elderly neighbor's driveways.

You seem subtly determined to paint these as mutually exclusive things.

[Mr. Perfect]

A Heaven filled with church goers and proselytizers will be a very different place than the Heaven filled with people who shovel snow out of their elderly neighbor's driveways.

You seem subtly determined to paint these as mutually exclusive things.

True. A lot of people will go to great lengths to rationalize not going to Church.

[Simple Minded]

A Heaven filled with church goers and proselytizers will be a very different place than the Heaven filled with people who shovel snow out of their elderly neighbor's driveways.

You seem subtly determined to paint these as mutually exclusive things.

I was agreeing with you about the 50% of the congregation you say go to church for the wrong reasons.

True. A lot of people will go to great lengths to rationalize not going to Church.

Agreed. Some go to great lengths to rationalize not going to church, others go to great lengths (even going to church!) to rationalize not shoveling snow for their neighbors. Humans implying free will at its finest. I like this part of God's plan.

[Typhoon]

45073584_10217477893078364_6896804418868477952_n.jpg (53.01 KiB) Viewed 1794 times

[Typhoon]

Sci Mag | Did judgmental gods help societies grow?

Today’s most popular religions have one thing in common: gods or supernatural laws (such as karma) that dictate moral behavior and punish transgressions. Act morally and these supernatural forces will reward you; break the rules and you’ll be punished.

But moralizing gods seem to be quite rare in human history. Researchers know from ethnographies that the gods of hunter-gatherer societies, for example, don’t much concern themselves with humans, much less their moral behavior. (Many of them focus on nature instead.) Now, a new study tests a popular hypothesis about why moralizing gods eventually took over.

Many scholars argue that moralizing gods were needed to build large-scale societies, an idea sometimes known as the “big gods” hypothesis, although it applies to impersonal supernatural moral laws like karma as well. Hunter-gatherers live in small bands in which everybody knows everybody else, so immoral behavior is virtually guaranteed to be discovered and punished. But in larger, more anonymous societies—from networks of interconnected villages to the first cities—people can break the rules without anyone noticing. If everyone did that, society would fall apart, so moralizing gods were needed to keep an eye on everyone and encourage cooperation instead of cheating. The more people cooperate, the more the society can grow.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

The 'Big Gods' hypothesis is post hoc reasoning according to Karl Jaspers and Charles Taylor. It wasn't that complex societies needed Big Daddy to serve as a traffic cop, but that the idea of transcendence entered into human consciousness, and culture and society build out from there:

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Background on what John Vervaeke is on about.....'>.....

https://www.britannica.com/list/the-axi ... fast-facts