Enlightenment which where?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Post Reply
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5690
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Enlightenment which where?

Post by Parodite »

Some reflections on his reflections. A lot of good stuff, but I'd like to question the idea that philosophies, enlightened (pro-reason and pro-science) or otherwise, are a big causal force in human progress or evolution in general. They appear to me more like after-thoughts, a reflection.

I do think ideas have a causal force and can be consequential, but they are usually highly overrated. Correlation equals not causation, and I'd say this is particularly true for ideas, philosophies like enlightenment thinking. It is totally unclear how much of a causal force ideas/philosophies actually were and are amidst that huge forest of multi-mega variables non-linear causal web in which they occur. Very similar to how CO2 is considered the driving force of climate change without much proof available for that claim: the data actually scream uncertainty and impenetrable complexity.

It seems unlikely that by sheer intellectual insight, where reality is seen from an abstracted "above" with a box filled with empirically collected data to be analysed, people start to change behavior. Direct their actions towards a new goal after they drew their conclusions sitting on that bright enlightened cloud.

I do think he is rock solid correct about one thing: empirical data and empirical experience is the driving motor of what he identified as the enlightenment evolution. What he does not say however and what I would like to add, is that all human behavior is driven by empirical data, empirical experience. Always. And it is true for all animals. No organism is able to be non-empirical. To function in their world, they have to be empirical because that is what sensory systems are. To "hypothesize" their best next move, all animals rely on empirical experience that occurred in the past. This knowledge<->action tandem got automated into reliable reflexive processes and behaviors where possible.

Reality is always a changing configuration of similar yet different circumstances so the need remains for behavioral flexibility, a "creative anticipation" of what occurs from moment to moment, day to day, month, years, eons... During this process old automated tricks can become obsolete while new tricks need to be learned. New tricks will be (partially) automated after they were proven useful enough times. This was true before "the enlightenment" for all organisms of all times. Never was it true that all those old tricks disposed and new tricks learned by any organism were the result of abstracted reflections, conceptual ideas.. philosophies. Generated on a bright cloud by intellectuals.

All behavior and change of behavior was, is and will be the result of immediate and changing circumstance necessitating solutions for the realities as they exist moment to moment. What is a solution of course depends on what the problem was: this is different for every animal, species, plant or microbe living sometime somewhere, from moment to moment, as different species.

When a new solution was created it was a moment of enlightenment for those organisms. Hurray! But most likely also the first step towards a new dark age where new solutions will be needed for new types of problems.

"Creating solutions" of course smacks like anthropomorphism. As-if organisms congregate and have their brightest intellectuals and scientists dig for solutions. But nothing is further from the truth. For millions of years organisms managed to create "bright" solutions for very "dark" problems without much thinking, not much self-awareness aqa consciousness (highly overrated imo), let alone a PhD in any frontal-lobed human endeavor on ivy league universities.
Deep down I'm very superficial
noddy
Posts: 11347
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Enlightenment which where?

Post by noddy »

Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape
ultracrepidarian
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5690
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Enlightenment which where?

Post by Parodite »

noddy wrote:
Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape
Nice rap lyrics too :)
friggin fuckn filthy fancy fowl in the face facts etc
Deep down I'm very superficial
noddy
Posts: 11347
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Enlightenment which where?

Post by noddy »

its the outtro to my favourite talking heads song, ahead of its time it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z92avHmgDRA

enlightenment and facts (tm) was all fun when it mostly monoculture and all that was being discussed was a few issues that were backing up against the conservatives of the day.

now we are on to stage 2 of that grand project, that facts require priorities to get them in order, not all facts are equal and suddenly its all smelling like the old days again and nothing has changed.

which seems to be the crux of your muse aswell.
ultracrepidarian
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5690
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Enlightenment which where?

Post by Parodite »

noddy wrote:its the outtro to my favourite talking heads song, ahead of its time it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z92avHmgDRA
Somehow the talking heads passed me by during the sensi high school years so I probably lost the chance of soul for it :P
enlightenment and facts (tm) was all fun when it mostly monoculture and all that was being discussed was a few issues that were backing up against the conservatives of the day.

now we are on to stage 2 of that grand project, that facts require priorities to get them in order, not all facts are equal and suddenly its all smelling like the old days again and nothing has changed.

which seems to be the crux of your muse aswell.
Indeed. The same show, different costumes. Variations on theme. Maybe over very long stretches time things look different.

Btw got this from your country. Maybe an illustrating irony fun case of how to deliberately create a new dark age with regular power outages that people themselves pay for to happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYHX-Ib3Q5Q

But of course the problem for (a) is often the solution for (b). The renewables mafia is doing even better when others sit in the dark with less money in their pockets paying for their own misery.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Simple Minded

Re: Enlightenment which where?

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:
enlightenment and facts (tm) was all fun when it mostly monoculture and all that was being discussed was a few issues that were backing up against the conservatives of the day.

now we are on to stage 2 of that grand project, that facts require priorities to get them in order, not all facts are equal and suddenly its all smelling like the old days again and nothing has changed.

which seems to be the crux of your muse aswell.
stands to reason that when some animals are more equal than other animals, that some animal's facts are more equal than other animal's facts.
Simple Minded

Re: Enlightenment which where?

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Btw got this from your country. Maybe an illustrating irony fun case of how to deliberately create a new dark age with regular power outages that people themselves pay for to happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYHX-Ib3Q5Q

But of course the problem for (a) is often the solution for (b). The renewables mafia is doing even better when others sit in the dark with less money in their pockets paying for their own misery.
I love this lady. excellent presentation. "kicking above your weight" instead of "punching above your weight." "maybe there is a god."

As I pointed out many moons ago, right here on OTNOT, that anyone who thinks that forcing utilities to buy back power from people who install their own home renewable energy sources, is not driving up energy costs for everyone who is connected to the grid, does not understand basic physics or basic economics.

adding unpredictability of supply to the existing unpredictability of demand....., uh, yeah, sure, where's the downside?

no surprise that politicians don't understand basic economics nor basic physics.
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27435
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Enlightenment which where?

Post by Typhoon »

Spiked | On liberal authoritarianism
Bowing to the authority of experts saps the lifeblood of democracy.
. . . Someone has to decide, and if that decision preempts democratic decision-making, then clearly the decision cannot be left up to the people. In fact, among liberal political scientists, the whole idea that the people should define the scope of basic human rights is now sneeringly referred to as ‘majoritarian’ democracy, qualified as if it were no kind of democracy at all.

Mainstream liberals have reasoned that the delineation of the set of human rights that are necessary for the maintenance of individual freedom can only be properly performed by experts. Those experts, the experts in human rights, are by definition educated professionals like academics, lawyers, judges, journalists, civil servants, social workers, medical doctors and lobbyists. By virtue of dedicated study and professional practice they have made themselves the legitimate authorities on the subject. And they truly are the legitimate authorities on the subject. When you want an authority on chemistry, you consult a chemist. When you want an authority on human rights, you consult a human-rights lawyer.

The whole idea that the people should define the scope of human rights is now often sneeringly referred to as ‘majoritarian’ democracy, qualified as if it were no kind of democracy at all

The problem is that politics is a unique field of human activity. Authoritarianism in chemistry may be unproblematic, even desirable. Authoritarianism in politics is dangerous, even when the authorities themselves are above reproach. In the contemporary liberal worldview, certain policies are mandatory, others are beyond the pale, and only the experts can tell which is which. Liberal democracy thus requires the obedience of the voters (or at least the citizens) to expert authority. The people are the passive recipients of those rights the experts deem them to possess. As the domain of rights expands, experts end up making more and more of the decisions – or at least more of the decisions that matter – in an ever-increasing number of the most important aspects of public life: economic policy, criminal justice, what’s taught in schools, who’s allowed to enter the country, what diseases will be cured, even (in many cases) who will have the opportunity to run for elective office. In these areas and more, experts arrogate to themselves the authority to adjudicate competing claims for public resources and private benefits. As society evolves, the areas reserved to expert adjudication seem only to expand. In the course of normal politics, previously depoliticised policy domains rarely return to the realm of democratic determination.

The new authoritarianism of the 21st century has nothing to do with the Trump presidency. It is neither a right-wing authoritarianism, nor a nationalist authoritarianism, nor even a conservative authoritarianism. The new authoritarianism of the 21st century is, paradoxically, a liberal authoritarianism. It is a tyranny of experts.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27435
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Enlightenment which where?

Post by Typhoon »

The Bulwark | Your opinion is irrelevant.
It doesn't matter what you think.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Post Reply