Issues of Race in the USA

[Typhoon]

Also, sociologists don't disregard culture when they talk about poverty. They just don't limit the boundaries of culture by race. African American culture is considered part of American culture as a whole.

The culture of making sure resources stay in white hands is pretty essential to any analysis of culture. Culture arises from circumstances. People who have money aren't desperate and don't make desperate decisions, and they have a broader array of remedies to problems they face.

A bit rich considering the field of sociology is dominated by irreproducible results - see replication crisis.

[Simple Minded]

White people talking about how black people shouldn't be killing other black people are just oppressing black people by imposing Northern white culture on them.

Black people killing other black people is black people appropriating Hatfield-McCoy white redneck culture.

Until we turn off the black-white filters and sorting mechanism, talking about culture is pointless. Not just pointless, down right racist!

Amazingly bizarre to see the present turn on the black-white filter and then proclaim, "Hey, check this out! More datapoint for how racist people are!"

[noddy]

this is all last century arguments, violence has been trending down in all demographics since the 70's.

the current argument is who gets tax payer resources and why are they more deserving than other cultures/sub cultures.

middle class uni education is only the dream of middle class uni educated types, they never checked if that was the dream of native americans, rednecks or ghetto blacks.

[Simple Minded]

this is all last century arguments, violence has been trending down in all demographics since the 70's.

the current argument is who gets tax payer resources and why are they more deserving than other cultures/sub cultures.

middle class uni education is only the dream of middle class uni educated types, they never checked if that was the dream of native americans, rednecks or ghetto blacks.

Amen!

Just cause you ain't got no fancy book learning, don't mean you can't be impotent!

[Zack Morris]

Wow your math. Holy lavender, HUGE error.

39 out of 100,000 isn't 7000 out of 100,000 it is 39 out of 100,000.

1 in 15 black people isn't a murderer 1 in 2564 is.

Not even wrong.

Nice to see you around, Enki. Shame we didn't meet when I lived in New York and I hope you are staying safe.

Col. Sun is trying to bamboozle you with meaningless figures. Don't fall for his misdirection. He's already committed a fatal logical error in arguing his case:

The violence is not due to poverty, a trope of academic sociology, it is due to culture.

Culture. Indeed. Col. Sun admits here that the problem is structural. What is African American culture and how did it form? Presumably, he has not thought this through and believes African American culture to be something independent and immutable, brought from Africa perhaps, or maybe the product of genetics.

You can chart the path of African American culture as a straight line from unconscious bias and abject poverty, to high incarceration rates and broken families, to ghettoization, to legally-enforced discrimination and segregation, to open terrorism and rule by fear and violence, to extreme relative impoverishment by government policy, and all the way back to chattel slavery and forced family separations. All of this is in the span of a century and a half.

One would have to be deliberately ignorant to avoid admitting all this.

The State has invested considerable resources on behalf of whites since the 19th century. For blacks, it hardly did more than begrudgingly offer legal equality a couple of generations ago. There is an entire solution space involving direct government intervention that has not been explored yet.

[Simple Minded]

Culture. Indeed. Col. Sun admits here that the problem is structural. What is African American culture and how did it form? Presumably, he has not thought this through and believes African American culture to be something independent and immutable, brought from Africa perhaps, or maybe the product of genetics.

As a buddy used to say "Uh-huh.... whatever makes your nipples hard!"

I think that anyone who talks about Black culture or White culture is a racist.

They start out by using skin color as the filter to search for data that supports their racist predilections.

Self-destructive, Redneck culture is common to both urban blacks and rural whites. Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams have written about this for decades. But it is bitter medicine to swallow for those who wish to blame others for the quality of their lives.

Blame yourself first, and you have a better chance of improving your situation. Parents and peers are also huge influencers, damn shame you can't ick the former.

People who want to ignore all the other variables, especially Fred's personal choices that result in the quality of Fred's life, are the same mentality as Climate Change alarmists who ignore the effects of the Sun on temperature.

My nipples feel great!!!

[Zack Morris]

Blame yourself first, and you have a better chance of improving your situation. Parents and peers are also huge influencers, damn shame you can't ick the former.

That's a good attitude to have but it does not come naturally nor easily. Plenty of historical evidence to back this up. All successful societies have been fleeting and were book-ended by longer periods of stagnation. If it were as simple as admonishing one's self to do better, we would see a lot more success. Even the much-vaunted Western civilization is really less than a thousand years old and was birthed by fortuitous historical circumstances. Europeans were barbarians for most of their existence and despite extensive contact with superior civilizations were unable to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

The racial disparity in wealth and achievement is staggering in the United States. Conservatives believe this is a problem that can be ignored because it doesn't affect them but they're wrong. The politics of identity and tribalism, increasing hostility to immigration, and political extremism are all knock-on effects of failing to grapple with America's original sin head-on.

[Enki]

Wow your math. Holy lavender, HUGE error.

39 out of 100,000 isn't 7000 out of 100,000 it is 39 out of 100,000.

1 in 15 black people isn't a murderer 1 in 2564 is.

Not even wrong.

Nice to see you around, Enki. Shame we didn't meet when I lived in New York and I hope you are staying safe.

Hey Zack, yea, would have been great to meet you. I don't live there anymore. I'm in New Mexico now.

I guess black culture suppresses all those 300,000 votes in Georgia. That type of stuff makes my nipples soft. I guess personal responsibility doesn't apply to the people who stop black folks from voting.

One day we'll have an equal playing field and see. Love seeing how an economic Renaissance is in the works now that there are a lot of wealthy black people setting up VC funds and improving access to banking services. A friend of mine has an investor network in the Bronx that has built up. I know some folks would say that investing based on skin color in favor of black folks is the real racism, except I have been invited to participate on multiple levels with no problem. Huge opportunity to invest in those businesses because some really smart folks are finally accessing capital and business networks they were kept out of until very recently.

[Typhoon]

this is all last century arguments, violence has been trending down in all demographics since the 70's.

the current argument is who gets tax payer resources and why are they more deserving than other cultures/sub cultures.

middle class uni education is only the dream of middle class uni educated types, they never checked if that was the dream of native americans, rednecks or ghetto blacks.

Not one is arguing [except some of my US colleagues] that all blacks should attend uni [white rednecks are ignored].

Be it black or white redneck, everyone in a society should have competent math and literacy skills so that they can make other choices in life than "livin' with yo mama" while trying to make it as a "gangsta rappa". Be that a apprenticeship to learn a useful trade, attend college to earn a useful degree, or attend a uni to earn a professional degree [M.D., P.Eng, etc.]. The talented few should have the opportunity give STEM a go.

On the other hand, degrees in various "grievance studies" may be a growth industry in the West, but they contribute less than zero to society.

[Zack Morris]

Be it black or white redneck, everyone in a society should have competent math and literacy skills so that they can make other choices in life than "livin' with yo mama" while trying to make it as a "gangsta rappa". Be that a apprenticeship to learn a useful trade, attend college to earn a useful degree, or attend a uni to earn a professional degree [M.D., P.Eng, etc.]. The talented few should have the opportunity give STEM a go.

There is a structural lack of access to educational resources for black children, so good luck with that. School systems in the US are designed to keep funding local, which means poor neighborhoods have significantly worse schools than wealthy ones.

"Useful jobs" are disappearing fast. Between software eating the world and low-value manufacturing disappearing, developed countries are facing a chronic underemployment problem for large swaths of the population that will require creative government intervention.

On the other hand, degrees in various "grievance studies" may be a growth industry in the West, but they contribute less than zero to society.

As I pointed out in another thread, these degrees are mostly a right-wing fiction. That said, expect the traditionally oppressed to become increasingly vocal worldwide. In East Asia, LGBT rights activism is strengthening and as immigration becomes slowly normalized, expect to see more interrogation and deconstruction of the social contract.

[Enki]

Be it black or white redneck, everyone in a society should have competent math and literacy skills so that they can make other choices in life than "livin' with yo mama" while trying to make it as a "gangsta rappa". Be that a apprenticeship to learn a useful trade, attend college to earn a useful degree, or attend a uni to earn a professional degree [M.D., P.Eng, etc.]. The talented few should have the opportunity give STEM a go.

There is a structural lack of access to educational resources for black children, so good luck with that. School systems in the US are designed to keep funding local, which means poor neighborhoods have significantly worse schools than wealthy ones.

"Useful jobs" are disappearing fast. Between software eating the world and low-value manufacturing disappearing, developed countries are facing a chronic underemployment problem for large swaths of the population that will require creative government intervention.

On the other hand, degrees in various "grievance studies" may be a growth industry in the West, but they contribute less than zero to society.

As I pointed out in another thread, these degrees are mostly a right-wing fiction. That said, expect the traditionally oppressed to become increasingly vocal worldwide. In East Asia, LGBT rights activism is strengthening and as immigration becomes slowly normalized, expect to see more interrogation and deconstruction of the social contract.

I've never heard a single post by anybody referring to critical theory as "grievance studies" really understands the core of it. Which is funny considering the analysis of social media censorship that is going on in the other thread is critical theory being applied, and the arguments are largely rooted in grievance of people afraid that they are about to be structurally deprived of rights. I guess being banned by Google or Twitter for advocating racial violence is culture. If they had a better culture they wouldn't be having their rights infringed by multinationals. Nice to see the right aim their ire at the correct threats from corporate America though, maybe the culture is becoming more advanced. Oh wait, none of that could possibly be true because there is no such thing as structural impediments. Sociology is not reproducible!

[Typhoon]

Be it black or white redneck, everyone in a society should have competent math and literacy skills so that they can make other choices in life than "livin' with yo mama" while trying to make it as a "gangsta rappa". Be that a apprenticeship to learn a useful trade, attend college to earn a useful degree, or attend a uni to earn a professional degree [M.D., P.Eng, etc.]. The talented few should have the opportunity give STEM a go.

There is a structural lack of access to educational resources for black children, so good luck with that. School systems in the US are designed to keep funding local, which means poor neighborhoods have significantly worse schools than wealthy ones.

"Useful jobs" are disappearing fast. Between software eating the world and low-value manufacturing disappearing, developed countries are facing a chronic underemployment problem for large swaths of the population that will require creative government intervention.

On the other hand, degrees in various "grievance studies" may be a growth industry in the West, but they contribute less than zero to society.

As I pointed out in another thread, these degrees are mostly a right-wing fiction. That said, expect the traditionally oppressed to become increasingly vocal worldwide. In East Asia, LGBT rights activism is strengthening and as immigration becomes slowly normalized, expect to see more interrogation and deconstruction of the social contract.

I've never heard a single post by anybody referring to critical theory as "grievance studies" really understands the core of it. Which is funny considering the analysis of social media censorship that is going on in the other thread is critical theory being applied, and the arguments are largely rooted in grievance of people afraid that they are about to be structurally deprived of rights. I guess being banned by Google or Twitter for advocating racial violence is culture. If they had a better culture they wouldn't be having their rights infringed by multinationals. Nice to see the right aim their ire at the correct threats from corporate America though, maybe the culture is becoming more advanced. Oh wait, none of that could possibly be true because there is no such thing as structural impediments. Sociology is not reproducible!

It's nothing more than the usual empty fantasy nonsense from the so-called humanities.
Useless, yet highly-privileged, people who hate themselves, their life choices, and the society that they live in.

[Simple Minded]

It's nothing more than the usual empty fantasy nonsense from the so-called humanities.
Useless, yet highly-privileged, people who hate themselves, their life choices, and the society that they live in.

Amen. Lotta zip codes out there, hundreds of millions of individuals with varying opinions, ya gotta do some wild mental gymnastics to force them all into one or the other of two camps. Always strike me as strange that even some Americans think America is only 2 people living on 2 acres.

Oddly enough, the woke opinions are usually held by those who haven't spent a few years laboring in the field along side people of color. If the elite mutes had, they might just realize that most people could not care less about their own skin color or the skin color of others. But to a racist, it is the primary variable that must be emphasized in all considerations.

It still working out that all the parts of America I have lived in, have nothing in common with areas and issues the elites and the MSM are concerned about.

Ain't no better way to camouflage your privilege than to say white rednecks is poor due to their personal choices, but black rednecks is poor cause society is oppressive.

White collar racists have a much more impressive vocabulary. Kinda makes it hard for some of us to understand them at times.

Nothing worse than racists using big words....... kinda disguises the fact that they never view people as individuals but only as herd animals.

5MGhgGDhnWg

[Simple Minded]

It's nothing more than the usual empty fantasy nonsense from the so-called humanities.
Useless, yet highly-privileged, people who hate themselves, their life choices, and the society that they live in.

A few years back, I think it was on another forum, a kid posted that he was getting a master's degree with a thesis that America is a racist country because of the low(?) percentage of bi-racial marriages. I couldn't resist.

Over the course of a few post he revealed that his girl friend was of the same race as him, his parents were of the same race, his grandparents ere of the same race, and the same was true of his girlfriends parents and grandparents. So following the logic of his thesis, I pointed out the obvious, namely that he, his girlfriend, and both their families were all racists!

He was shocked, indignant, and replied that those few datapoint were not indicative of racism, because of other factors. I said, "yep, and the same is true of every same race marriage datapoint you are going to use to try to prove your theory of racism.

Racism, like beauty, or offense is in the eye of the beholder. Seek and ye shall find.

"One man's Racist is another man's Woke Activist!" (tm)

-G5eEJTtKUw

[Zack Morris]

I guess being banned by Google or Twitter for advocating racial violence is culture. If they had a better culture they wouldn't be having their rights infringed by multinationals.

This brings up an interesting question: what exactly is conservative culture and what innovations has it developed in recent decades? One of the most interesting deficits is in the area of comedy. Why aren't conservatives funny? Pushing the boundaries of permissible thought, as these intellectual rebels see themselves, should produce humor and satire that resonates with people demoralized by stale liberalism.

[You're not special. https://www.onthenatureofthings.net/for ... p?p=65#p65]

[Typhoon]

. . .

I guess being banned by Google or Twitter for advocating racial violence is culture.

. . .

A rhetorical "And when did you stop beating your wife?" statement.

Guess again.

[noddy]

this is all last century arguments, violence has been trending down in all demographics since the 70's.

the current argument is who gets tax payer resources and why are they more deserving than other cultures/sub cultures.

middle class uni education is only the dream of middle class uni educated types, they never checked if that was the dream of native americans, rednecks or ghetto blacks.

Not one is arguing [except some of my US colleagues] that all blacks should attend uni [white rednecks are ignored].

Be it black or white redneck, everyone in a society should have competent math and literacy skills so that they can make other choices in life than "livin' with yo mama" while trying to make it as a "gangsta rappa". Be that a apprenticeship to learn a useful trade, attend college to earn a useful degree, or attend a uni to earn a professional degree [M.D., P.Eng, etc.]. The talented few should have the opportunity give STEM a go.

On the other hand, degrees in various "grievance studies" may be a growth industry in the West, but they contribute less than zero to society.

I dont get your point, sorry.

we dont need any more tradies, we dont need any more college grads, we dont need any more uni grads.

all those roles are already over serviced and have increasing unemployment, the fix is to create less of those students, not more.

india and china pump out more surplus grads in all industries than the population of my country.

i really think we are past bromides on all this - education is not the answer, its not going to create more jobs, just more competition for existing jobs.

its why we had the occupy protests, its why we had the tea party protests, its why we have the BLM protests, its why we have alt-right and angry groups everywhere.

our societies stopped making safe middle class jobs for "mediocre" people, those people are expected to be happy about being declared not good enough to live comfortably.

its why we have all the bitterness against "mediocre white men giving each other jobs"

if the percentage of safe middle class jobs for black people is statistically correct, that still leaves way too many of them exactly where they are right now.

we need some way of making the 50% of the population who are below mediocre a part of society in ways that dont leave them angry and feeling under the pump

when i was a kid, atleast 50% of the population barely finished middle school and happily went on to work with on the job training - farms and industry.

they could then afford single income house and raise a family modestly on that.

those folks are the angry ones, they arent going anywhere, and jobs arent being created that need them.

I dont know what the solution is, all I know is that education is only a small part of the picture.

Perhaps in Australia, but in Japan there is a serious shortage of labour due to the declining birth rate.

Automation is part of the solution. Some labour from SE Asia is permitted residency to partially fill the gap.

However, Japan is not going open the floodgates to mass immigration anytime in the foreseeable future.

[Enki]

noddy

I guess we'll just start seeing more deaths of despair.

[noddy]

we already are.

some suicide internally, drugs and depression, some do it externally with terrorism and nihilism.

both of those define our age.

[Enki]

we already are.

some suicide internally, drugs and depression, some do it externally with terrorism and nihilism.

both of those define our age.

Violence defines every age.

[Zack Morris]

Useless, yet highly-privileged, people who hate themselves, their life choices, and the society that they live in.

Sounds like you just described the "red pill" crowd to a tee.

If one were educating a child today in a developed country, I would advise them to pursue the arts as a major, STEM as a minor. The future belongs to those with imagination and a passion for life.

[Doc]

Useless, yet highly-privileged, people who hate themselves, their life choices, and the society that they live in.

Sounds like you just described the "red pill" crowd to a tee.

If one were educating a child today in a developed country, I would advise them to pursue the arts as a major, STEM as a minor. The future belongs to those with imagination and a passion for life.

You can learn technique to develop your creativity. but generally people are creative or they are not. College isn't needed to do that, If what you say is true then why do the largest corporations no longer require a college degree?
I would advise them not to go to college at all. Some would a recruiter at Google...
_RKGhp83FN4
tXgCG50YoWs

Do you know what creature on earth is the most efficient in self locomotion?

0lvMgMrNDlg

Steve Jobs is first of many many modern success stories that did not get a college degree before their success. Bill Gates didn't have one either Neither did Mark Zuckerberg, Paul Allen, Michael Dell, Larry Ellison. Steve Wozniak has a BS in Engineering and had his dream job before he ever thought to start building computers for his friends. All he ever wanted to do was build things.

The only reason Gates and Zuckerberg went to college. Or at least the biggest thing they got out of their time there was they met people.

Bob Noyce found college so valuable because one of his teachers was friends with John Bardeen co-inventor of the transistor(and the only two time Nobel prize winner ever)

While Noyce was an undergraduate, he was fascinated by the field of physics and took a course in the subject that was taught by professor Grant Gale. Gale obtained two of the very first transistors ever produced by Bell Labs and showed them off to his class. Noyce was hooked.[10][18][19] Gale suggested that he apply to the doctoral program in physics at MIT, which he did.[20]

Its what you know, who you know, and how hard do you work. If you are "passionate" something you like doing then chance are good you will do fine. But you had better meet some people.

I should add that sometimes you need the Huevos to take a chance.

If you come from a single parent household the above is not impossible, but it is hell of a lot harder.

[Doc]

this is all last century arguments, violence has been trending down in all demographics since the 70's.

the current argument is who gets tax payer resources and why are they more deserving than other cultures/sub cultures.

middle class uni education is only the dream of middle class uni educated types, they never checked if that was the dream of native americans, rednecks or ghetto blacks.

Not one is arguing [except some of my US colleagues] that all blacks should attend uni [white rednecks are ignored].

Be it black or white redneck, everyone in a society should have competent math and literacy skills so that they can make other choices in life than "livin' with yo mama" while trying to make it as a "gangsta rappa". Be that a apprenticeship to learn a useful trade, attend college to earn a useful degree, or attend a uni to earn a professional degree [M.D., P.Eng, etc.]. The talented few should have the opportunity give STEM a go.

On the other hand, degrees in various "grievance studies" may be a growth industry in the West, but they contribute less than zero to society.

I dont get your point, sorry.

we dont need any more tradies, we dont need any more college grads, we dont need any more uni grads.

all those roles are already over serviced and have increasing unemployment, the fix is to create less of those students, not more.

india and china pump out more surplus grads in all industries than the population of my country.

i really think we are past bromides on all this - education is not the answer, its not going to create more jobs, just more competition for existing jobs.

its why we had the occupy protests, its why we had the tea party protests, its why we have the BLM protests, its why we have alt-right and angry groups everywhere.

our societies stopped making safe middle class jobs for "mediocre" people, those people are expected to be happy about being declared not good enough to live comfortably.

its why we have all the bitterness against "mediocre white men giving each other jobs"

if the percentage of safe middle class jobs for black people is statistically correct, that still leaves way too many of them exactly where they are right now.

we need some way of making the 50% of the population who are below mediocre a part of society in ways that dont leave them angry and feeling under the pump

when i was a kid, atleast 50% of the population barely finished middle school and happily went on to work with on the job training - farms and industry.

they could then afford single income house and raise a family modestly on that.

those folks are the angry ones, they arent going anywhere, and jobs arent being created that need them.

I dont know what the solution is, all I know is that education is only a small part of the picture.

Perhaps in Australia, but in Japan there is a serious shortage of labour due to the declining birth rate.

Automation is part of the solution. Some labour from SE Asia is permitted residency to partially fill the gap.

However, Japan is not going open the floodgates to mass immigration anytime in the foreseeable future.

In the US we need more lawyers Even though the US graduates more lawyers every year than total number of lawyers in Japan. They always seem to come up with clever ways to make money. They are virtually money trees

And more Health insurance companies. What a modern marvel They get doctors and dentist to double the prices they charge so the doctors can give them a 50% discount so people can pre-pay their medical care. Now that is wealth creation !!

Then you have multinational corporations that figured out if you move manufacturing to China your cost are 10% of what you sell your products for. IF you are in software your product is pretty much free after the fist market copy !! Then once you have wiped out and disrupted your domestic competition you can raise your prices and take over the government !!
3V4buEgPYAY

Who need things like Manufacturing Mining and Farming They are dinosaurs of wealth creation. For the few.

[Zack Morris]

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg are gifted outliers. For a person of average to above average intellect, college is still the pathway to efficiently acquiring skills that will guarantee an upper middle class life. It would be nice if the educational system were more flexible early on. But the market wants standardized education to make assessment of employees easier.

If you're an outlier -- a Gates, Jobs, or Zuckerberg -- you can already make your own rules.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg are gifted outliers. For a person of average to above average intellect, college is still the pathway to efficiently acquiring skills that will guarantee an upper middle class life. It would be nice if the educational system were more flexible early on. But the market wants standardized education to make assessment of employees easier.

If you're an outlier -- a Gates, Jobs, or Zuckerberg -- you can already make your own rules.

Not outliers. Out & out liars.