Finding God

[Simple Minded]

No point in looking for a god that does not suit one's needs.

You are fascinating me on levels I haven't felt in some time.

Isn't that that whole point of blogging?

[Typhoon]

Epicurus' Trilemma is a version of the problem of evil.
Lactantius attributes this trilemma to Epicurus in De Ira Dei, 13, 20-21:

God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?

[Doc]

Epicurus' Trilemma is a version of the problem of evil.
Lactantius attributes this trilemma to Epicurus in De Ira Dei, 13, 20-21:

God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?

Perhaps God created the universe as a simulation to study the nature of good and eWill?

[noddy]

the unknowability of gods plan and the lack of awareness of humans for passing value judgements upon it is why the christians had to come up with so many different versions of the word "love" to cover that problem.

the love of a newly married couple is different to the love of a parent for the child, which is different to the love a kid with a magnifying glass has for ants.

[Typhoon]

. . . the love a kid with a magnifying glass has for ants.

strikes me as an apt description of any deity credited with allegedly creating this universe.

[Simple Minded]

. . . the love a kid with a magnifying glass has for ants.

strikes me as an apt description of any deity credited with allegedly creating this universe.

IIRC, it was Lazarus Long who stated "Men never succeeds in inventing a god superior to himself. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child."

[Nonc Hilaire]

Good and evil are not a binary concept. They are two entirely different things.

As the good Colonel would say, Epictitous is not even wrong. Epi’s viewpoint is as absurd as saying rust and rot are the inverse of the processes of building and engineering.

[Simple Minded]

"Even the seemingly immortal gods survive only as long as they are needed by mortal man."

God may judge us in the end, but in the short run, we are judging him. Ironic.

Cosmic justice?

7+ billion petty demigods judging you every day until they die. Kinda makes Google seem benign.....

[Parodite]

Q: Hi God, who or what are you and why?

God: The question never occurs to me.

Q: And the question of good and evil? Suffering and salvation?

God: No questions no answers there either, sorry

Q: Try this one. I wonder, why am I?

God: How could reason or cause be of any help to you? Infinite regress. If I created you, then who created me? Maybe you did.. on a sad Monday morning, God forbid. And so on.

Q: Looks like we are in an self-referential loop, or something that will spiral out of control!

God: If true, so what?

Q: You think it is true?

God: Surely not. Just that all answers you find give rise to new questions which render the initial answer incomplete, possibly wrong or even... not even wrong. Where does that leave you?

Q: Looks like it leaves me being wrong all the time. Not even wrong being the default.

God: But I'm always with you, don't worry. In fact, you being not even wrong is my life insurance. I'm only in danger when you go beyond that. But.. it could also be my own salvation. The road to freedom, the end of your torturous investigations! It's not really fun being created and killed the next moment, over and over again.

Q: Sounds like you prefer me going completely mad so you can get rid of me like an annoying tick!

God: Ticks fall off naturally after they sucked enough blood, so I'm not worried. One day you stop harassing me.

Q: So I'm just a God-sucker as far as you're concerned.

God: I'm not concerned. Just showing you, that your way of questioning turns you into a tick of sorts.

Q: But you love all creatures don't you. Gotcha!

God: The ticks were friendly enough to finally let me go. They moved on to other hosts. They never bother me any longer also because I smell very bad lately! Stench is protecting me. Made sure of that, works like a charm. They are my best friends now because we mind our own business. We don't need to kill nor save each other. No questions no answers. That would be a good definition of heaven, don't you think?

Q: I don't know. It might too boring for me there. But if you feel at home in such a place... who am I to interfere.

God: And there you have your answer to the "Who am I?" <satisfied grinning>. You guessed it: you are an interfering, irritating, blood sucking bug. Now repent!

[noddy]

Good and evil are not a binary concept. They are two entirely different things.

As the good Colonel would say, Epictitous is not even wrong. Epi’s viewpoint is as absurd as saying rust and rot are the inverse of the processes of building and engineering.

to me thats not even wrong about the complaint itself

that version of god is indifferent or powerless to the outcomes in the creation, which is another word for irrelevant.

a parent that sits back and watches the child drown requires a very specific definition of love, one that most of us atheist types dont see.

[noddy]

Q: Hi God, who or what are you and why?

God: The question never occurs to me.

Q: And the question of good and evil? Suffering and salvation?

God: No questions no answers there either, sorry

Q: Try this one. I wonder, why am I?

God: How could reason or cause be of any help to you? Infinite regress. If I created you, then who created me? Maybe you did.. on a sad Monday morning, God forbid. And so on.

Q: Looks like we are in an self-referential loop, or something that will spiral out of control!

God: If true, so what?

Q: You think it is true?

God: Surely not. Just that all answers you find give rise to new questions which render the initial answer incomplete, possibly wrong or even... not even wrong. Where does that leave you?

Q: Looks like it leaves me being wrong all the time. Not even wrong being the default.

God: But I'm always with you, don't worry. In fact, you being not even wrong is my life insurance. I'm only in danger when you go beyond that. But.. it could also be my own salvation. The road to freedom, the end of your torturous investigations! It's not really fun being created and killed the next moment, over and over again.

Q: Sounds like you prefer me going completely mad so you can get rid of me like an annoying tick!

God: Ticks fall off naturally after they sucked enough blood, so I'm not worried. One day you stop harassing me.

Q: So I'm just a God-sucker as far as you're concerned.

God: I'm not concerned. Just showing you, that your way of questioning turns you into a tick of sorts.

Q: But you love all creatures don't you. Gotcha!

God: The ticks were friendly enough to finally let me go. They moved on to other hosts. They never bother me any longer also because I smell very bad lately! Stench is protecting me. Made sure of that, works like a charm. They are my best friends now because we mind our own business. We don't need to kill nor save each other. No questions no answers. That would be a good definition of heaven, don't you think?

Q: I don't know. It might too boring for me there. But if you feel at home in such a place... who am I to interfere.

God: And there you have your answer to the "Who am I?" <satisfied grinning>. You guessed it: you are an interfering, irritating, blood sucking bug. Now repent!

no doubt another planet has far more interesting versions of life form than us, which is using up all the attention.

[Typhoon]

Good and evil are not a binary concept. They are two entirely different things.

As the good Colonel would say, Epictitus is not even wrong. Epi’s viewpoint is as absurd as saying rust and rot are the inverse of the processes of building and engineering.

to me thats not even wrong about the complaint itself

that version of god is indifferent or powerless to the outcomes in the creation, which is another word for irrelevant.

a parent that sits back and watches the child drown requires a very specific definition of love, one that most of us atheist types don't see.

I can understand that Epicurus' Trilemma would upset believers, but that does not make it go away.
Rather, with regards to metaphysics, I would argue that it is the fundamental question.

Consider that our in physical universe the law of the conservation of energy [4-momentum to be pedantic] holds.

With regards to life on earth, this physical law necessitates the existence of the food chain - eat and try to avoid being eaten - until disease and age eventually takes their toll.

It is difficult for me to reconcile "nature red in tooth and claw" with all powerful metaphysical deities or a deity having purposely created such a universe.

If so, then I can understand indifferent or even malevolent deities or deity, but not ones or one who are/is caring and/or loving.

[Simple Minded]

Q: Hi God, who or what are you and why?

God: The question never occurs to me.

Q: And the question of good and evil? Suffering and salvation?

God: No questions no answers there either, sorry

Q: Try this one. I wonder, why am I?

God: How could reason or cause be of any help to you? Infinite regress. If I created you, then who created me? Maybe you did.. on a sad Monday morning, God forbid. And so on.

Q: Looks like we are in an self-referential loop, or something that will spiral out of control!

God: If true, so what?

Q: You think it is true?

God: Surely not. Just that all answers you find give rise to new questions which render the initial answer incomplete, possibly wrong or even... not even wrong. Where does that leave you?

Q: Looks like it leaves me being wrong all the time. Not even wrong being the default.

God: But I'm always with you, don't worry. In fact, you being not even wrong is my life insurance. I'm only in danger when you go beyond that. But.. it could also be my own salvation. The road to freedom, the end of your torturous investigations! It's not really fun being created and killed the next moment, over and over again.

Q: Sounds like you prefer me going completely mad so you can get rid of me like an annoying tick!

God: Ticks fall off naturally after they sucked enough blood, so I'm not worried. One day you stop harassing me.

Q: So I'm just a God-sucker as far as you're concerned.

God: I'm not concerned. Just showing you, that your way of questioning turns you into a tick of sorts.

Q: But you love all creatures don't you. Gotcha!

God: The ticks were friendly enough to finally let me go. They moved on to other hosts. They never bother me any longer also because I smell very bad lately! Stench is protecting me. Made sure of that, works like a charm. They are my best friends now because we mind our own business. We don't need to kill nor save each other. No questions no answers. That would be a good definition of heaven, don't you think?

Q: I don't know. It might too boring for me there. But if you feel at home in such a place... who am I to interfere.

God: And there you have your answer to the "Who am I?" <satisfied grinning>. You guessed it: you are an interfering, irritating, blood sucking bug. Now repent!

Welcome back Parodite, or God, whatever you call yourself...... the world's a better place with you in it!

[Simple Minded]

With regards to life on earth, this physical law necessitates the existence of the food chain - eat and try to avoid being eaten - until disease and age eventually takes their toll.

It is difficult for me to reconcile "nature red in tooth and claw" with all powerful metaphysical deities or a deity having purposely created such a universe.

If so, then I can understand indifferent or even malevolent deities or deity, but not ones or one who are/is caring and/or loving.

Yeah, but someone is keeping the cats from picking up guns! If not God(s), then who (Wu?)?

[Typhoon]

With regards to life on earth, this physical law necessitates the existence of the food chain - eat and try to avoid being eaten - until disease and age eventually takes their toll.

It is difficult for me to reconcile "nature red in tooth and claw" with all powerful metaphysical deities or a deity having purposely created such a universe.

If so, then I can understand indifferent or even malevolent deities or deity, but not ones or one who are/is caring and/or loving.

Yeah, but someone is keeping the cats from picking up guns! If not God(s), then who (Wu?)?

A quip, attributed to Epicurus, is that

"It is a good thing that the gods do not answer men's prayers.
For if they did, then we'd all be dead, given that what men pray for most is the death of others."

It is unfortunate that most of Epicurus' writing have been lost.

Having said that, despite being an atheist, I still prefer people believing in traditional religions rather than the new secular religions of
communism/environmentalism/post-modernism/critical theory.

The belief that human nature is a blank slate has probably resulted in the death of more people than any other.

[Parodite]

Welcome back Parodite, or God, whatever you call yourself...... the world's a better place with you in it!

Thanks Bre. Well, I'm a bit overly busy with earthly survival issues lately so haven't been able to be there for God much. But seriously... she/he/it obviously needs help. To be a friend who is there and just listens would already help God, I suspect! God being eternally omnipotent or forever impotent... who knows. All knowing or... perhaps not so much, when unknown unknowns terrorize His dreams. Or being of such an unfathomably different nature that no finger of a stranger can find a single crack in the Dome of the Unknown (a place you won't find on any map anyways), where no human desperate or thankful thought ever reaches you as all thought evaporates at the event horizon. Imagine you created a black hole for fun but are sucked into it never to get out again. All relative time stopped. Eternal death row. Solitary confinement. Let's not do this to God.

It is also possible God is suffering more than any sentient organism ever suffered or will suffer in the future! For instance, what if she-he-it is all that is, was and will be.. the total sum of all past and future? It doesn't seem a nice position to be in, always being everything and everybody at the same time. It is a romantic version of God that many people prefer over the old fashioned behind the clouds, distant, anthropomorphic God who remotely watches over his unruly children, sending graceful gifts or painful punishments depending on his mood of the day... but it condemns God to eternal Hell too; He will never know what time it is, whether he is smiling or crying, being at war or at peace... when He is all that simultaneously. Let's not do this to God either!

So it seems to me, that being forever-alone or forever-everything are just two different versions of the same Hell. What other options does God have? How can he be saved from Hell? His situation, it seems to me, is much more painful and precarious than our infamous human condition. At least we know our suffering will end. That luxury and re-assurance is not something available to Him. (I'm told He tried suicide once, but it was a total failure.)

[Simple Minded]

Welcome back Parodite, or God, whatever you call yourself...... the world's a better place with you in it!

Thanks Bre. Well, I'm a bit overly busy with earthly survival issues lately so haven't been able to be there for God much. But seriously... she/he/it obviously needs help. To be a friend who is there and just listens would already help God, I suspect! God being eternally omnipotent or forever impotent... who knows. All knowing or... perhaps not so much, when unknown unknowns terrorize His dreams. Or being of such an unfathomably different nature that no finger of a stranger can find a single crack in the Dome of the Unknown (a place you won't find on any map anyways), where no human desperate or thankful thought ever reaches you as all thought evaporates at the event horizon. Imagine you created a black hole for fun but are sucked into it never to get out again. All relative time stopped. Eternal death row. Solitary confinement. Let's not do this to God.

It is also possible God is suffering more than any sentient organism ever suffered or will suffer in the future! For instance, what if she-he-it is all that is, was and will be.. the total sum of all past and future? It doesn't seem a nice position to be in, always being everything and everybody at the same time. It is a romantic version of God that many people prefer over the old fashioned behind the clouds, distant, anthropomorphic God who remotely watches over his unruly children, sending graceful gifts or painful punishments depending on his mood of the day... but it condemns God to eternal Hell too; He will never know what time it is, whether he is smiling or crying, being at war or at peace... when He is all that simultaneously. Let's not do this to God either!

So it seems to me, that being forever-alone or forever-everything are just two different versions of the same Hell. What other options does God have? How can he be saved from Hell? His situation, it seems to me, is much more painful and precarious than our infamous human condition. At least we know our suffering will end. That luxury and re-assurance is not something available to Him. (I'm told He tried suicide once, but it was a total failure.)

That's why, IMSMO, Lazarus Long got it right. Humans can imagine the concept of God, but we can't imagine his existence, behavior, or perspective. At least in anything outside of our own life experience. So far, there seem to be 7 billion + gods and counting. Even atheist gods who aren't very powerful.

At another site, we discussed the possibility of aliens visiting Earth. Wow! Is that a trigger for some, no doubt based on religious beliefs. For others, the physics, distance, and time frame makes the visits from aliens impossible.

But how would we know? To a snail, my walking speed is impossible. To a turtle, the commute to work or the grocery store is impossible. To an insect, my lifespan is impossible.

The other aspect in my opinion, is, would we even be able to perceive the existence of god or aliens? Are lower life forms on earth able to perceive the existence of humans, automobiles, or bridges?

Live your life according to these rules, and when you die, you will get rewarded or punished accordingly. Fun mental gymnastics to be sure. Faith not knowledge.