JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:A major topic of this conversation is the light opposed to darkness:

....

Two and a quarter hours of it......'>.......
Very nice convo.

I found some other impressive way to rid us from ideological possession; the removal of all toxic thought. :P (chuckle warning)

Nothing can stop us now from sailing into that calm sea of light... that just sometimes giggles.. for not much of a reason.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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SH and JBP had their follow-up discussions:

Sam Harris Jordan Peterson Vancouver debate 1
Sam Harris Jordan Peterson Vancouver debate 2

Don't know why I tortured myself with this, but I did. Surely not reaching the heights of pleasure and insight of the Argument Clinic, but a close call it was. The combination of these two people talking brings me right to the edge of nihilism. Not sure why. Will ask Mama Nature and Papa God for help.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Parodite wrote:
SH and JBP had their follow-up discussions:

Sam Harris Jordan Peterson Vancouver debate 1
Sam Harris Jordan Peterson Vancouver debate 2

Don't know why I tortured myself with this, but I did. Surely not reaching the heights of pleasure and insight of the Argument Clinic, but a close call it was. The combination of these two people talking brings me right to the edge of nihilism. Not sure why. Will ask Mama Nature and Papa God for help.
P,

Consider this an interventionist moment, get a real hobby. Like watching one of those home shopping channels, or mud wrestling, start a band, do shots of tequila before breakfast....

Mrs P would probably appreciate it also. If she doesn't, that's a warning signal.... :P
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Simple Minded wrote:
Parodite wrote:
SH and JBP had their follow-up discussions:

Sam Harris Jordan Peterson Vancouver debate 1
Sam Harris Jordan Peterson Vancouver debate 2

Don't know why I tortured myself with this, but I did. Surely not reaching the heights of pleasure and insight of the Argument Clinic, but a close call it was. The combination of these two people talking brings me right to the edge of nihilism. Not sure why. Will ask Mama Nature and Papa God for help.
P,

Consider this an interventionist moment, get a real hobby. Like watching one of those home shopping channels, or mud wrestling, start a band, do shots of tequila before breakfast....

Mrs P would probably appreciate it also. If she doesn't, that's a warning signal.... :P
:D Point taken SM. The urge to fix problems, real or perceived, can be quite an addiction. That damn curiosity WTF is going on kills me.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Parodite wrote:


:D Point taken SM. The urge to fix problems, real or perceived, can be quite an addiction. That damn curiosity WTF is going on kills me.
Better yet, buy some guns! 8-)

You are more than welcome. Now that I've saved one soul, I can take the rest of the day off! :P

You can pay back the debt by saving my soul sometime in the future.......
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Simple Minded wrote:
Parodite wrote:


:D Point taken SM. The urge to fix problems, real or perceived, can be quite an addiction. That damn curiosity WTF is going on kills me.
Better yet, buy some guns! 8-)

You are more than welcome. Now that I've saved one soul, I can take the rest of the day off! :P

You can pay back the debt by saving my soul sometime in the future.......
Saving you in particular is a waaaay too big challenge SM.. and you know it! :P
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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MN: So I heard you listened to SH and JBP again and that it was a disappointment. But why? They gave their best shots and at least there was a decent conversation despite their differences. Get used to differences son! Agreement occurs when the thinking stops. In the grave usually.

Me: Yea yea I know. But there are differences and then there are different differences. JBP was totally unable to get his point across to SH, and SH kept transmitting his dead horse conclusions about religious fundamentalism, dogma. JBP kept agreeing with SH on these dangers of dogma in literalist fundamentalism and gave honest answers about his personal blief in God.

MN: So what was JBP's point that he couldn't get across? Btw.. did you take notes as I recommended last week?

Me: No I didn't take notes because I felt there wasn't much worthy to take notes from. They talked more than 4 hours but their agreements and disagreements and different perspectives can be summarized in a few lines.

MN: Up to you, but again what couldn't JBP get across? Or was what he tried to get across kinda flimsy and/or badly articulated? He is a master articulator so beware here..

Me: JBP claims that for SH to identify and contrast a hellish reality with a heavenly reality as the extremes of a moral landscape that fluctuates in between, he cannot do that without a religious-like intermediary structure that negotiates these moral values. That such an intermediairy structure is more meta-physical than factual, or at least not factual alone. (Where factual can mean any actual human experience and all its physical correlates in the brain, environment and culture)

MN: It sounds to me you rephrase JBP quite a bit, but will assume you are correct. So? You agree with JBP?

Me: Hard to agree or disagree with that because it is too vague for me. But there is something to it that needs more clarification perhaps. Too soon to dismiss it at this point for sure.

MN: Did SH dismiss it?

Me: Not clear either, but he appeared to feel great resistance to the idea. Because any uttered sentence with words like religion, meta-physical in it makes him feel like somebody pushed a finger deep into his throat causing nausea and a gag reflex. Which in turn makes him reflexively resort back to his anti-dogma anti religious fundamentalism drill, not able to hear what JBP tries to communicate. When JBP tries to explain something using particular politically incorrect words, SH starts to almost vomit and can't think straight anymore.

MN: Yes, I can see that. SH often comes to the Store to buy anti-nausea medication. I will ask JBP next time I see him to just avoid certain words and concepts when he talks to Sam. Maybe your Father has some tips how to talk to people like SH. Usually stories work better when you want to explain the importance of narratives, archetypes etc. Sam appears to be hungry for good music, not a lecture about sound waves and frequencies.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Just wondered what a "confrontation" between JBP and UGK would have looked like. Probably like a clash between matter and anti-matter. UGK to me is like the Einstein of philosophy and the Prime Master of the a-Moral Universe.

R2FgamLOHMI
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Me: PG, Mom sent me to you. About the JBP-SH debate. She thinks SH needs stories and good music to understand JBP.

PG: Understand what?

Me: That SH's moral landscape cannot be derived from facts alone. That it requires an intermediary structure to derive values from facts. That it is the same structure that also operates in religious value systems. That its tools are archetype and narrative in which those facts become meaningful. That there is no value in facts alone.

PG: Does JBP have reasons to make that claim?

Me: Brain structure and function. Notably left- and right hemispheres. They are highly specialized but connected by the corpus colossum, a thick band of neurons that enables them to talk to each other.

PG: A lot is not known about the brain.

Me: But a fair deal is!

PG: I don't need to know how my brain works unless there is a problem that must be fixed. Unfortunately I never have any problems so I can't say much about it. It is also possible I don't even have a brain of course. Which would make it very cynical, even ominous I would say, that your mother sends you to me again for help! <chuckles>

Me: Haha Dad! Since your exile and having to talk from behind the veil you seem more happy, I must say. You found back your humor!

PG: It is all about accepting your fate son. Fighting the facts is futile and a big source of unnecessary misery.

Me: Well, it makes more sense if you just talk to Sam personally about all this.

PG: Of course, he is more than welcome. You can send him my invitation.

Me: Will do. Soon Sam will meet his Father.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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And so the miracle happened. Sam finally met his Father. But it didn't end too well. Reader discretion is advised, some of the content may be experienced as deeply disturbing. We are fearing for Sam's life.

---------------------------------------------------------

PG: Hello Sam, good to see you. Hows all going?

Sam: I'm fine, thank you.

PG: Must say I'm a bit surprised you accepted my invitation. Given how you think about me.

Sam: It is ok. I accepted that you only exist in my head. I can talk to any imaginary person. So there is not much to fear for me.

PG: That is totally OK with me. At least we are talking. And I appreciate your honesty. I heard you really fight for truth with a minimum of excess meta-physical baggage. You like to keep things simple, but not too simple.

Sam: Well, thanks for the compliment.

PG: But can I ask you a question?

Sam: Sure, fire ahead.

PG: There are a lot of things you see as imaginary, perhaps even delusional. That I'm not the only figment of your own imagination. You also consider your self an illusion. That would make two of us, right?

Sam: Well, not quite. My consciousness is real and it is a neurological fire storm in the brain, but the idea of a "me" riding that storm, or me being "in" it is an illusion. I am that storm. This storm recognizes this "I" being an illusion, just as it recognizes you, "God" being an illusion of same type.

PG: So you and me are in the same sad situation basically. We are just two illusions talking to each other?

Sam: I learned to be ok with it. Our conversation is as virtual as it gets.

PG: Would you go as far as saying that all contents of your consciousness are equally illusory, part of a virtual reality? Some Buddhists make that claim. That the world you experience is an illusion, a dream.

Sam: Depends on the Buddhist school, but I subscribe to the notion that the distinction between the experienced internal world and the experienced external world does not exist. The duality between the internal and external arises when the illusory self enters the picture that says: this is me, and that is not-me.

PG: But as far as I can tell, it is still your illusory self that decided all this to be the case. You are saying "I don't exist". Which is an interesting claim, but it gives me the feeling I am not sure who "Sam" is, who or what does the talking.

It also contradicts something you said earlier where you do claim to be something: a neurological fire storm. So one moment you claim not to exist, the next moment that non-existent "you" identified itself as a neurological firestorm! It is absurd Sam. What's next? One day you might claim to be God almighty and a minute later decide you are nothing at all, not even an illusion! All this drives you crazy Sam, doesn't it. I do not envy you. I feel sad and sorry.

Sam: What you say is meaningless. You are a figment of my own imagination, and so am I! The brain is hard-wired to produce those tricks of the mind. Brain research also shows how this neurological box of tricks works. I won't be fooled ever and I have science on my side!

PG: But you claim there is nobody to be fooled because there is nobody in the room, not even in the house to begin with! The entire building is empty. Only a neurological firestorm... hmm?

Sam: Yes.

PG: You are just changing hats all the time son. You seem to be looking for the perfect one that makes you invisible forever. Aren't you afraid that the smaller and more invisible you become, the bigger and more real I get? I have seen it happen many times. People who fall off the cliff of sanity and believe they are God afterwards.

Sam: I am You... and knew that all along. It was only you still living in the illusion you were different from me. But that will soon change when we jump this cliff together. We will be One again.

PG: OMG, Sam don't do that to us. Think of your kids and wife, your friends... they all need us to stay a bit longer!!

Sam: If you leave me alone I might reconsider. But since we are one and the same there is no point, and no other way out. We have to do it.

PG: Please, talk to your mother before you jump! Listen to what she has to say first and then reconsider. I also ask you in my own interest. You should give me a vote in this since that jump will kill us both!

Sam: It will be two illusions less to worry about. Sorry Dad.... here we go... jump...and fly....
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Quick question P of a personal nature;

Just wondering where you are in the odyssey of life.

For example I was fascinated with first principles from the age of 10 till about 25, then I moved on to rock and roll. Most people do the opposite.

I'm wondering if you came to this later in life, and if so what triggered it. Because if you did you were carrying around some latent talent this whole time.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Mr. Perfect wrote:Quick question P of a personal nature;

Just wondering where you are in the odyssey of life.

For example I was fascinated with first principles from the age of 10 till about 25, then I moved on to rock and roll. Most people do the opposite.

I'm wondering if you came to this later in life, and if so what triggered it. Because if you did you were carrying around some latent talent this whole time.
There are quite some irregularities in my life's journey so can't say in what order things are happening. I just found this format of dialogues with Mama Nature and Papa God inspiring as they kind of self-write. It's more like fiddling on a piano or hitting away on a drum kit. At age 13 it started to be all jazz drumming. The movie Whiplash kind of starts where my drum career ended due to "various circumstances".

As for philosophy, religion and science and what-not, I'm just interested in some of the big questions. The usual suspects: what is the meaning of life, why consciousness, and why me here now? Those questions occurred to me at age 5 on my way walking to school. A mysterious, funny, happy and special moment I knew I would remember the rest of my life. ("a religious moment" will do too, but that over-processed lingo has died for me long ago). A happy surprise. A gift that unfortunately also starts to beg questions for which no answers are available. Not when you look around.

Now when I look around, in front of me, I see only answers but without knowing what the questions were! :P I suspect the relevant questions are not in front of me... but behind me, so to speak. If this sounds like reverse engineering, it probably is. If I can borrow from your religious culture the concept of prayer: everything that happens is the answer to a prayer.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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MN was of course quickly notified that Sam and PG went off the cliff into a free fall. As she carries the entire cycle in her womb of life, death and resurrection she was not in a panic. It was business as usual.

When once upon a time PG decided to withdraw and operate from behind the veil allowing for free will, full sovereignty and resonsibility of the human individual (as the only way for him to have some days off, as well as the necessary road for humans to become Gods - if ever) his wife MN understood that her husband had chosen the life of a perpetual Martyr for good. He wanted to cry with the crying and laugh with the laughing. Live with the living and die with the dying. Then resurrect again in new-borns where the souls of the past continue their journey in unique and new episodes. To experience all possible experience of all sentient species. From the most brutal and bloody to the most blissfull. From a hardly remembered fleeting dream to a never to forget life changing moment.

MN her only worry was that PG started to show signs of addiction. A consciousness junky of sorts. Things got pretty out of whack. He even decided to experience the most terrible and unjustified deaths thinkable. Human beings turned out to be the best medium for extreme experience. At one point MN decided to put him on a vegetarian diet to only experience plant life. She called it "the vegetative state". The divine holiday. Humans also discovered this mode of being but called it "the meditative state". They experience very little in that state but ironically learned to call that "a spiritual experience". Something very special "of higher order". But for PG it just meant a power nap, a bit of day-dreaming doing detox from another overdose of consciousness.

Especially the death of Jesus was hard on PG. It took him more than 2000 years of rehab. It was a long slumber with a big cost for humans. Which is why MN wanted to have a serious talk with JBP asap. If you want the Logos to resurrect, you have to be careful what you wish for.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

Post by Simple Minded »

I hope JBP recovers well and soon.

Hopefully none of this is due to the stress of suddenly becoming a virtual god and/or virtual demon on the internet in the minds of so many.

Nothing will destroy one faster than trying to please everyone.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Simple Minded wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:29 am I hope JBP recovers well and soon.

Hopefully none of this is due to the stress of suddenly becoming a virtual god and/or virtual demon on the internet in the minds of so many.

Nothing will destroy one faster than trying to please everyone.
His immune system being low after this grand world tour, his wife getting very sick.. surely stress and some burn-out symptoms? But then again.. these prescription drugs are themselves often the cause of hellish terror when they don't work as expected and the user is not aware of the potential withdrawal symptoms, with sometimes even long term neuro-physiological damage! From what I read about the drug he used there is a chance JBP does not get out of this undamaged. Big pharma itself could use a rehab clean-up from its opioid $$ addiction.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Hope JBP recovers soon and well.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

Post by crashtech66 »

Pleased to see he's back, provisionally anyway. Interested to see how this may affect his narratives moving forward.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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After his resurrection, Air Jordan often talks about the idea of Attention. Almost as a religious principle, pertaining to the Logos which he believes directly points to Consciousness. (Caveat: I'm doing some off the cuff theology here. Any similarity to actual divine revelation, of past or present, is purely coincidental)

The Word was God and was with God. Then he spoke things into being. However, spoken words mean nothing of they are not being listened to. As there was light, things could also actually be seen. Light extracts creation from Darkness. The unknown becomes a known in a transformation that is creation. Sounds nice enough, however...

I don't believe we human beings can produce or mediate a divine revelation which poetically or otherwise describes the origins of earth and cosmos that is not a product of our own experience and/or imagination. The (your) world only starts to exist when you are aware of it. Logos represents the ability to "subtitle" your sensory experience, when a kid becomes self-aware and able to reflect on itself with language on how it fits in its social and physical environment. How, in what way are you conscious when you can't identify and subtitle your experiences with words?

Ironically, if you believe paying undivided attention is some sort of a divine force that draws creation into being, animal consciousness is of a much higher spiritual order because they are more attentive in general. Their senses are directed at the outside world for nearly a 100%. There doesn't seem to be much self-talk going on, it would only distract them. I never get the impression that animals or plants concern themselves with the meaning of life, or think about how terrible it is they will die one day. Which is probably why we like them so much.

How dark can a story be about the light? As dark as a plate filled with good food.. a story told to an empty stomach. More salt rubbed into your wounds.
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Re: JBP: Light versus Darkness

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Parodite wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:29 am After his resurrection, Air Jordan often talks about the idea of Attention. Almost as a religious principle, pertaining to the Logos which he believes directly points to Consciousness. (Caveat: I'm doing some off the cuff theology here. Any similarity to actual divine revelation, of past or present, is purely coincidental)

The Word was God and was with God. Then he spoke things into being. However, spoken words mean nothing of they are not being listened to. As there was light, things could also actually be seen. Light extracts creation from Darkness. The unknown becomes a known in a transformation that is creation. Sounds nice enough, however...

I don't believe we human beings can produce or mediate a divine revelation which poetically or otherwise describes the origins of earth and cosmos that is not a product of our own experience and/or imagination. The (your) world only starts to exist when you are aware of it. Logos represents the ability to "subtitle" your sensory experience, when a kid becomes self-aware and able to reflect on itself with language on how it fits in its social and physical environment. How, in what way are you conscious when you can't identify and subtitle your experiences with words?

Ironically, if you believe paying undivided attention is some sort of a divine force that draws creation into being, animal consciousness is of a much higher spiritual order because they are more attentive in general. Their senses are directed at the outside world for nearly a 100%. There doesn't seem to be much self-talk going on, it would only distract them. I never get the impression that animals or plants concern themselves with the meaning of life, or think about how terrible it is they will die one day. Which is probably why we like them so much.

How dark can a story be about the light? As dark as a plate filled with good food.. a story told to an empty stomach. More salt rubbed into your wounds.
Without "dark" there would be no such word as "light"
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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