The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Parodite wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:05 am So far in history no empire, no dictatorship, no monopoly has survived forever. Nature somehow just can't accept the idea of permanence. I wonder why that is. Maybe it just gives a bad taste in the mouth.

If thou asketh me, what are the odds? Biden's honeymoon, all the wonderful dreams sprinkled into the future now that the orange nightmare is over, will be as short-lived as an orgasm followed immediately by that hangover caused by the night before. With the bills at the desk still grinning at you. Having to listen again to all those people nagging about their miserable lives, everybody blaming everybody for the decay and stench. Why do things keep falling apart all the time?

In the global mist it won't be easy to identify the enemy as in the ol' days when territorial demarcations were much clearer. But that won't stop nature to deal with monopolies as it always does: they crumble. I suspect the Gods vaccinated the creative juices of reality against huge eternal monsters. That position was relegated to the Immutable Eternal God, forever exorcised beyond the event horizon, hovering like a mirage beyond anyone's grasp.

The only real and eternal monopoly is Tombstone. Or maybe zillions of competing, very hungry and extremely small monsters that looove big carcasses. The jury seems still out on that. I suspect the positron is to be blamed for most of the lavender hitting the fan.
Seems like there is a unhealthly number of optimists around here.

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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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The Critic | Template for technocrats

[How the book] "Nudge" taught a generation of experts how to manipulate the public, free from scrutiny
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Typhoon wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:32 pm The Critic | Template for technocrats

[How the book] "Nudge" taught a generation of experts how to manipulate the public, free from scrutiny
Wow. Though given the Big Tech's hiring of nearly every Behavioral Psychologist in the country not surprising. Also may explain much of the Democrats behavior over the last few years. Imagine acting badly to "nudge" people into bad behavior out of anger.
The authors do not question the assumption that since government and civil servants have the power to micromanage members of the public, they have the competence or right to do so. Nudging is an opportunity for academics to test theories, free of accountability and even free of scrutiny. Health England’s action on sugar taxes, food advertising and vaping classification is a classic case of a nudge unit with too many bright ideas and good intentions.

What about manipulative nudging? “[…] we don’t think that the risk of our book falling into the hands of bullies and crooks should be at the top of anyone’s list of things to worry about. Maybe fret more about climate?” Which is exactly the same whataboutism that prompts cabinet ministers (who have lined up lucrative government contracts for relatives) to tell reporters to worry about the “crisis” rather than their own corruption.

The authors are at times naïve. They claim that movements such as #MeToo and Black Lives Matter were expressions of popular sentiment when they were “astroturfed” (that is, when groups misrepresent a minority interest as a cause with widespread support in order to extract concessions). In these cases, it seems the authors have been successfully nudged by operators cannier than they.

The most pernicious result of consensus of the elite, a narrow range of acceptable discourse, and nudge policies, is to be found in eco-activism. Even the framing of “climate crisis” presumes that we agree a) there is a climate crisis, b) it can be partially remedied through action, c) what those actions should be and d) that individuals do not need to assent to these. Green nudges are used to make life difficult, to add costs and to reduce options – often all against the best interests of the population and in service of the elite.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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...and it goes on from there, if anyone is interested to click on the thread
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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my own sense of nudging/fake news/propoganda is that it really only works confirming and reinforcing existing beliefs.

its the half truths we tell ourselves to maintain a particular moral perspective.

as such, its not the thing its being accused of, its comfort food for existing believers.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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noddy wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:17 am my own sense of nudging/fake news/propoganda is that it really only works confirming and reinforcing existing beliefs.

its the half truths we tell ourselves to maintain a particular moral perspective.

as such, its not the thing its being accused of, its comfort food for existing believers.
I'd lean towards agreeing

stealing from that thread, someone replied with this:
"Tired: Nudges subtly changes citizen behavior in a prosocial direction.

Wired: Nudging refocus technocrats on useless nonsense interventions instead of something actively harmful."
One's job becomes bullet proof if it has no toehold in reality. :)
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:22 am


Wired: Nudging refocus technocrats on useless nonsense interventions instead of something actively harmful."
One's job becomes bullet proof if it has no toehold in reality. :)
:)

fits nicely into the world view that capitalism and freedom occur in the cracks of legislation.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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noddy wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:20 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:22 am


Wired: Nudging refocus technocrats on useless nonsense interventions instead of something actively harmful."
One's job becomes bullet proof if it has no toehold in reality. :)
:)

fits nicely into the world view that capitalism and freedom occur in the cracks of legislation.
Hah, I've been working up to a post on that too. Can't quite get the energy up for it.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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The thing with Nudge is that is a reworking of books like these from the 70s-- except all that evil and discredited behaviorism is gone replaced with the more science-y science of behavioral economics.

Image

Retarded is a very loaded term of course, one that the book above goes to great pains to try to distinguish the behavior from the person.

It goes on to create a measuring system of what is considered "retarded", with certain indicators. Most retarded thing one could do? Defy authority. Next most? Be born in the countryside; or only associate with a certain kinds of people, only eat certain kinds of food, only obeying specific people.

Instead of using the word nudge, I believe it's described as giving a little push to these people to cure them of their retardation. And instead of being academic or unleashed on school children; now every bureaucracy of the US government has it's very own nudge unit.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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Retarded is a specific term for a specific condition. To be considered retarded one must have 1) IQ 2 sd below the mean AND 2) social ability 2 sd below the mean AND 3) this must evidence in youth. Must have all 3.

The retarded have entirely different educational profiles than autistic or brain damaged. The current socially correct lumping of all types into a ‘mentally challenged’ garbage can category is abusive.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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That may have been the case at one point, but that train has left the station.

The expansion of public policy required expansion of definitions, until all non-policy makers could fit somewhere.

================

The thread is about the tendency of tech society

but we are really talking about policy-driven societies- where whole government programs turn on a dime because of some n=13 social study came across a desk at just the right time.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:56 pm That may have been the case at one point, but that train has left the station.

The expansion of public policy required expansion of definitions, until all non-policy makers could fit somewhere.

================

The thread is about the tendency of tech society

but we are really talking about policy-driven societies- where whole government programs turn on a dime because of some n=13 social study came across a desk at just the right time.
It is about "experters" people and systems that have no accounting for individuals and never will. They make everyone outside of their power circle a number 0.0000000026(currently) rather than a human. The only good in their common good benefits themselves.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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their are no limits, their will be no stopping any of it.

and it wont be experts and corruption and conspiracy , it will be mundane middle class improvement and life saving.

the kids growing up with permenant trackers on them, called mobile phones, wont even blink when the odd balls who refuse to participate get excluded from more and more things.

between the phones and the credit cards, every thing is already in place, way too late to worry about it.

we are like the old generations before reading and writing - its obvious to us that this new fangled technology is going to empower all sorts of government monitoring and control.

and any attempt to stop it is just pissing in the wind, nobody is going back to the pre internet times , the convenience and empowerment are far bigger than the perceived risks and the folks that grew up in apartments, in cities, online, never had any personal freedom or ownership to lose.

how could they tell the difference.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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noddy wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:21 am their are no limits, their will be no stopping any of it.

and it wont be experts and corruption and conspiracy , it will be mundane middle class improvement and life saving.

the kids growing up with permenant trackers on them, called mobile phones, wont even blink when the odd balls who refuse to participate get excluded from more and more things.
All made in China

between the phones and the credit cards, every thing is already in place, way too late to worry about it.

we are like the old generations before reading and writing - its obvious to us that this new fangled technology is going to empower all sorts of government monitoring and control.

and any attempt to stop it is just pissing in the wind, nobody is going back to the pre internet times , the convenience and empowerment are far bigger than the perceived risks and the folks that grew up in apartments, in cities, online, never had any personal freedom or ownership to lose.

how could they tell the difference.
Though it has been appalling to me for 35 or 40 years now little most people understand the power of databases to track every aspect of people's personal lives.

Before 911 for example it was against the law for any government Federal or state and local to even ask for your Social security number without giving a specific reason as to why they were asking for it, AND citing the specific law that made it legal for them to ask.

IN my State they were printing Social security numbers on state driver's licenses for anyone you presented it to to see. Plus were selling the complete list of DL holders with the social security numbers, IT wasn't they wee intentionally ignoring the law. It was that no one ever pointed out to them that that what they were doing was in violation of the law.

I knew what the law said and pointed it out to the manager of the local Division of Motor Vehicles. Apparently no one had ever done that before as the next time I went into the DMV they were no longer asking for SS# Then a few months later were asking for them but no longer printing them on the licenses and citing the law which gave them the right to ask.

I was amazed what I said made a difference. But the fact that no one before me pointed that out was rather depressing. That no one that understood what giving out such an exact personal identifier could really come back and bit you in the butt.

After that ID theft came along. After several years people started to wake up to the fact that your personal information could be used against you and cost you a great deal of time and money.

But people did wake up to some extent at that point.

Then of course 911 and the internet happened so all of the above got throw out the window. Now you can write something online and become a "Person of interest" for things you had nothing to do with.

But people did wake up back then. So maybe the fat lady has not sung as of yet.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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noddy wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:21 am their are no limits, their will be no stopping any of it.

and it wont be experts and corruption and conspiracy , it will be mundane middle class improvement and life saving.

the kids growing up with permenant trackers on them, called mobile phones, wont even blink when the odd balls who refuse to participate get excluded from more and more things.

between the phones and the credit cards, every thing is already in place, way too late to worry about it.

we are like the old generations before reading and writing - its obvious to us that this new fangled technology is going to empower all sorts of government monitoring and control.

and any attempt to stop it is just pissing in the wind, nobody is going back to the pre internet times , the convenience and empowerment are far bigger than the perceived risks and the folks that grew up in apartments, in cities, online, never had any personal freedom or ownership to lose.

how could they tell the difference.

From The Autumn of the Modern Ages

(bolded text mine)

7. The Age of Privacy.
The Middle Ages were public. Life was lived in the community, not inside houses. Even the wedding night was public! That changed with the Modern Ages. Certain rooms in palaces and workshops were set apart for the king or for the master and his family – and it became understood that courtiers and customers were not to enter these “apart-ments” without invitation. The word “home” took on its current meaning and “make yourself at home” implied a very intimate friendship. An interiority developed in people’s ways of thinking: “inspiration” (which comes from the outside) gave way to “imagination” (which comes from the inside). The great controversies of the Middle Ages had been carried out in large and raucous public debates. The Modern Ages tended toward memoirs and diaries.
But privacy was a frail reed. There was always the competing desire for recognition – and recognition is anything but private. Peer pressure has always mattered, and matters more to the young than to the mature. As modern maturity segues into post-modern immaturity, peer pressure will become steadily more important.[1]

The post-modern world will be more medieval, in that it will once more carry out its arguments in public debates – on message boards and blogs and comm. boxes. They just won’t be as intellectually rigorous as the old medieval quodlibets.
Meanwhile, modern technology has made privacy virtually impossible. Someone is watching you, and it ain’t Big Brother. Or rather, it is your big brother, or your neighbor, or some passing stranger with a cell phone. Or the store surveillance camera… And they will post everything on the Web. David Brin calls this “The Transparent Society.” The public begins to spy on the government! Big Brother, we are watching you!
You can even spy on yourself, using social media to publish intimate details of your private life for all to see. Or blurting them out in the restaurant. Public phones used to be in booths to ensure privacy of the conversation. We now routinely chat in public with our invisible friends.
This sounds creepy to people who value privacy. The medieval would have shrugged. Post-modern people will likely take a desire for privacy as suspicious, and possibly even sinister. What have you got to hide?
8. The Age of the Family.
While the Age of Privacy might seem related to the Cult of the Individual, it was more related to the Cult of the Family. Medieval children were put out of the family as apprentices or (among the nobility) as squires; girls, less so; although they too were often put out to work. Boys came of age at fourteen, girls at twelve.[2] They could hold property, vote in manorial elections, enter contracts, marry. Beatrice of Burgundy was thirteen when she wed the forty-year old Kaiser Barbarossa. But the bourgeois Cult of the Home – of privacy, of interiority, of “coziness” meant keeping children at home. The Bourgeois Age did not invent children, but it did invent a certain way of thinking about children. The adolescent made its appearance.

This peaked in the 19th century when, for the first time in history, a significant number of married women no longer had to rise at dawn and go out to work. The Age of Industry paid the husband enough to afford an apartment or a cottage (sometimes even a house) where the wife, freed of the need to labor for others, could govern her children. But, like the Age of Industry, the Age of the Family was short-lived.
With the advent of easy divorce, many women found themselves without husbands but with children. At the same time, declining birthrates began sucking women back into the workplace to fill the low-paying clerical jobs required by the “production of consumption.”
Nor was the change driven solely by the economic demands of businesses. The role of homemaker had proven lonely and boring. In the Early Modern Age, working men and women labored at home or in shops below the apartment (or on the family farm). But in the industrial age, men more often had to leave the home and go elsewhere to work and governing the household became a very solitary occupation.
So once again, children were turned out of the house. Their raising was entrusted to professionals (licensed by the omnicompetent State), to peer groups, and to themselves. The Cult of Youth reinforced this trend. “As far as I can tell,” blogged Paul Graham, “the concept of the hormone-crazed teenager is coeval with suburbia. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think teenagers are driven crazy by the life they're made to lead. Teenage apprentices in the Renaissance were working dogs. Teenagers now are neurotic lapdogs. Their craziness is the craziness of the idle everywhere.” [PG]
What will our SFnal post-modern age look like? Youngsters used to talk about what they'd do when they grew up – fireman, policeman, postman, RR engineer – now they talk about never growing up. They want to be paid for singing, dancing, or wearing pretty clothes professionally.
A civilization of singers and dancers sounds rather pleasant. No one dances across the border to conquer their neighbors, although they have sometimes sung. But more and more, children are being thrown on their own devices and will have to grow up, will they, nill they. Meanwhile, their parents take pills not to have them and a third of them never get born. We cannot expect the same comfy families we used to know.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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yep, a fairly accurate analysis.

their is something else to be said about multiculturism and high immigration leaving too many folks disposable and unemployable , unable to keep changing to fit the never ending new conditions.

this is fertile breeding ground for terrorist sub cultures to form and ferment, making the tyranny a desirable thing.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

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City J | Reality honks back [paywalled?]
The Canadian trucker convoy suggests a new class divide originating in our experience of reality itself.
N. S. Lyons
February 23, 2022

The world is watching what’s happening in Canada with a mixture of fascination and horror. The weeks-long saga of the “Freedom Convoy” protest against pandemic restrictions, spearheaded by Canadian truckers, has taken an authoritarian turn. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau invoked emergency powers to crush the peaceful protest, suspending civil liberties protections, arresting hundreds, and taking the unprecedented step of ordering dissident citizens entirely frozen out of the financial system. What brought Canada’s normally placid politics to this point?

Many have slotted this drama into a familiar framework of right-wing populists versus left-wing elites. But a different way of looking at it may be more helpful in explaining not only what has happened in Canada but also why the political divide now looks so strikingly similar across the developed world, from Ottawa to Wellington.

While much has been made of the “working class” and its alienation from “the elite,” this phrasing comes with associations about material wealth and economic class that aren’t necessarily helpful. Many of those who support “populist” politics in opposition to the elite tend to be relatively solidly middle class, while many a starving artist supports the establishment Left. The character of one’s work and lifestyle seems to shape the common values of each side of the class divide more than income does.

Consider instead two main classes of people in society, who tend to navigate and interact with the world in fundamentally different ways. The first are those people who work primarily in the real, physical world. Maybe they work directly with their hands, like a carpenter, or a mechanic, or a farmer. Or maybe they are only a step away: they own or manage a business where they organize and direct employees who work with their hands and buy or sell or move things around in the real world, like a transport logistics company. This class necessarily works in a physical location or owns or operates physical assets central to its trade.

The second class of people is different. They are, relatively speaking, a civilizational innovation. They don’t interact much with the physical world directly; they are handlers of knowledge. They work with information, which might be digital or analog, numerical or narrative. But in all cases, the information exists at a level of abstraction from the real world. Manipulation and distribution of this information can influence the real world, but only through informational chains that pass directives to agents who can themselves act in the physical world—a bit like a software program that sends commands to a robot arm on an assembly line. To facilitate this process, these people build and manage abstract institutions and systems of organizational communication as a means of control. Individuals in this class usually occupy middle links in these informational chains, in which neither the inputs nor outputs of their role have any direct relationship with or effect on the physical world. They are informational middlemen. This class can therefore often do their job almost entirely from a laptop, by email or a virtual Zoom meeting, and its members have recently realized that they don’t even need to be sitting in an office cubicle while they do it.

For simplicity’s sake, let’s call these two classes the Physicals and the Virtuals, respectively. This division maps closely onto another much-discussed political wedge: the geographic split between cities, where most of the Virtuals are concentrated, and the outlying exurbs and rural hinterlands, where the Physicals remain predominant. No coincidence that partisan differences between urban metropolitan cores and provinces have become one of the defining features of politics across the Western democratic world.

But the most relevant distinction between Virtuals and Physicals today is that the Virtuals are now everywhere unambiguously the ruling class. In a world in which knowledge is the primary component of value-added production (or so we are told), and economic activity is increasingly defined by the digital and the abstract, they have been the overwhelming winners, accumulating financial, political, and cultural status and influence.

In part this is because the ruling class is also a global class, and thus has access to global capital. It is global because the world’s city-brains are directly connected with each other across virtual space, and in constant communication. Indeed, their residents have far more in common with one another, including across national borders, than they do with the local people of their own hinterlands, who, in comparison, seem practically from another planet.

But the Virtual ruling class has a vulnerability that it hasn’t yet solved. The cities in which their bodies live require a whole lot of physical infrastructure and manpower to function: electricity, sewage, food, the vital Sumatra-to-latte supply chain. Ultimately, the great brain hubs of the Virtuals still float suspended in expanses of the Physicals. So when the Physicals of the Canadian host-body revolted against their control, the Virtual class suddenly faced a huge problem.

When the truckers rolled their big rigs, which weigh about 35,000 pounds, up to the political elite’s doorstep, engaged their air brakes, and refused to leave until their concerns were addressed, it was like dropping a very solid boulder of reality in the Virtuals’ front lawn and daring them to remove it without assistance. And because the Virtuals cannot actually move objects with their minds, the truckers effectively called their bluff on who ultimately controls the world.

The Virtual elite’s reaction has been completely characteristic. Once they grasped the situation, their response was to turn immediately to their default means of dealing with any problem: narrative and informational control. Having at first entirely dismissed what he called a “small fringe minority with unacceptable views,” Trudeau soon fled his city for “security reasons.” He then unleashed a shotgun blast of smears on the truckers, saying they were guilty of “antisemitism, Islamophobia, anti-Black racism, homophobia, and transphobia,” not to mention “misogyny” and being “anti-science.” He falsely accused them of regularly flying “racist flags” and “waving swastikas,” and announced that he would refuse to meet with them because he could not go “anywhere near protests that have expressed hateful rhetoric and violence.” He declared Canadians to be “shocked and frankly, disgusted” with the protesters.

His class allies followed his lead, labeling the protest “an occupation” and a “siege.” Ottawa’s police chief declared the demonstrators “dangerous” and “hateful.” City officials ranted about a “nationwide insurrection” and “a threat to our democracy.” Canadian media ham-fistedly attempted to shove the whole phenomenon into an American political frame, calling the convoy a “pseudo-Trumpian grift” that was “organized and led by documented racists and QAnon-style nutters.” Anchors gravely compared footage of smiling, Canadian-flag-waving grandmas, diverse crowds of dancing Sikhs, and children playing in bouncy castles to “January 6” and “white supremacy.” American outlets such as Politico and the New York Times warned of the “far right” having been “galvanized” worldwide. Allegations of the protests being organized and funded by none other than the Russians were seriously aired. Facebook and Twitter, citing “misinformation,” quickly shut down accounts organizing the protest. GoFundMe complied with a government order and shut down $10 million in funds raised there for the truckers. A replacement fundraiser on GiveSendGo was frozen by a Canadian court.

If all this seemed awfully synchronized, that was the point. Systematic information control—what the Chinese Communist Party refers to as “public opinion management”—is now the entire strategic response of the Virtual class to every political problem. They do this not just because it is cynically convenient (though it is), but because it is literally the only way they know how to navigate and influence the world. They swim in a narrative sea. Their first instinct is always to manage problems through the power of “storytelling” (what the CCP calls “discourse power”) because they truly believe in the postmodern idea that reality is socially constructed. And if there is no fixed, objective truth, then the will of the mind rules the world. Facts can be reframed as needed to fashion the story that best produces the desired reality.

For the Virtual elite, the most unforgivable thing about the Physicals and their grimy world is that they stubbornly refuse to yield to full, frictionless control. Virtuals are increasingly most comfortable in a purely virtual environment—one where they can have direct, instantaneous control over (virtual) matter. Real matter is stubbornly resistant, a reminder that the self doesn’t control the universe, and that they are vulnerable, even mortal.

One problem remained: no amount of narrative control could move the trucks. The Virtuals needed to convince the Physicals to do that, but the towing companies in Ottawa refused to cooperate. In the end, a cornered Trudeau went nuclear and invoked Canada’s Emergencies Act for the first time in its history, seizing powers that allowed him to compel the tow companies into moving the trucks after he bussed police from around the country into Ottawa.

But the most striking new coercive measure Trudeau chose to wield was not the police crackdown. It was a government order for banks, credit card, insurers, companies and other financial infrastructure to stop “providing any financial or related services” to anyone designated as associated with the protests (including donors), effectively freezing them out of the modern economy without due process or means of appeal.

This was the natural next step for a regime based on informational power and seeking to compel compliance by revolting Physicals. Control over digital financial assets is essentially the ultimate leverage now available to the Virtuals. And here they have a significant advantage because they are free to use the maximum level of coercive force available in their natural domain, while the Physicals cannot (because, in the physical world, that would mean violence, something the protesters have rightly forsworn). We should expect more use of this tool around the world as the Physicals continue to revolt against their masters.

Even if the protests in Canada are crushed, this is unlikely to be the end of the matter. The revolt of the truckers, in the middle of a supply-chain crisis, has demonstrated that the Physicals still possess great power as long as they act with unity and solidarity.

Naturally, Virtuals everywhere have greeted this development with horror. The truckers symbolize the total reliance of the ruling elite on the very people that it finds most alien and abhorrent. To many Virtuals, this is truly terrifying. Holed up in their cities, they sense that should the Physicals—whom they once felt safe to ignore—engage in not just scattered protests but a full-scale revolt, or even simply a general strike that suspended all movement of goods, their bastions of enlightened civilization would be starving, shivering, and buried in trash within a week.

So, of course, they hate and fear the truckers. No wonder Trudeau is panicking and behaving like an autocrat facing an existential challenge to his rule; in a sense, he is. Expect the Virtuals of the world to move with all haste to develop new and innovative methods of information management and coercion to try to eliminate every human vulnerability from the system. But in the near term, Physicals are the ones with real leverage. Now they know it.

N.S. Lyons is the author of The Upheaval on Substack, from which this essay is adapted.
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Tech users are very submissive to tyrants. Next chapter
Censorship isn't necessary
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Re: The tendency of tech society is tyranny

Post by noddy »

tools that can be used, will be used, the only real difference between now and 50 years ago is the ability to shutdown electronic cash versus paper cash.

in reality 90% of the Physicals are happily providing services to the Virtuals for a living, much is being made of the 5-10% of malcontents but if they had a proper backing of the farmers, the truckers, the hairdressers and cafe workers, then this would have played out different.

all that happened was they blocked main roads in town for weeks on end until people got sick of them and stopped indulging them.

id suggest if the eco warrior left did the same thing for the same length of time, we would have seen the same thing.
ultracrepidarian
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