History of STEM | Alternative claims

[Heracleum Persicum]

oRkNaF0QvnI



Well, folks,, science,, scientific thinking, took shape in our beloved Persia

West was into "Alchemy" .. a form of speculative thought


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy


Pomegranates were the first that started science, a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions

We see that in all domains of science .. medicine, mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry .. pretty much everything

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[Typhoon]

oRkNaF0QvnI



Well, folks,, science,, scientific thinking, took shape in our beloved Persia

West was into "Alchemy" .. a form of speculative thought


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy


Pomegranates were the first that started science, a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions

We see that in all domains of science .. medicine, mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry .. pretty much everything

.

Actually, it was the ancient Greeks.

Failed nations typically glorify their past as they have nothing to show for the present.
The sad reality is that Persia and other Muslim nations have not made a significant contribution to civilization since about the 13th century.

[Heracleum Persicum]

oRkNaF0QvnI



Well, folks,, science,, scientific thinking, took shape in our beloved Persia

West was into "Alchemy" .. a form of speculative thought


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy


Pomegranates were the first that started science, a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions

We see that in all domains of science .. medicine, mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry .. pretty much everything

.

Actually, it was the ancient Greeks.

Being good in geometry or math does not constitute "scientific mind" .. is not "scientist"

Greek had no "scientific mind"

Pomegranates were the one who started looking at all with a "scientific concept"

Failed nations typically glorify their past as they have nothing to show for the present.

Brits said this to China too

Why should a past great civilization not rise up to same as before ?

If a Nation was forefront civilization for 1000s of yrs, there no reason not to get there again

There ZERO doubt that all great civilizations will rise again, already happening

The sad reality is that Persia and other Muslim nations have not made a significant contribution to civilization since about the 13th century.

Persia civilization has nothing to do with Islam or any other religion

"The Islamic Golden Age" did not happen due to "theological" reason.

The relative peace in all Central Asia to Andaluse , north africa, Asia Minor .. AND .. universal Arabic language in that space, like now english, lead Persian scientist and philosophers and big thinkers to communicate with all the empire and remake the world

All those giants of humanity of that age , without a single exception , were Pomegranates , all of them

They developed a "scientific thinking" that lead to today's western understanding of science

That we see in today's Iran .. the strictest sanctions last 40 yrs but leading in science in that space, soon among best in the world

Just look at all Iranians in lead positions in top US research universities and head of top faculties

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[Typhoon]

Post 'em if you got 'em.

[Heracleum Persicum]

Iran may have a population of ~ 85 million, but is a backwards theocracy stuck in the past.

https://hetg.physics.harvard.edu/news/p ... c-american


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu7eT06-xH0&t=1116s


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumrun_Vafa

.

Just another one of many fortunate immigrants who prospered in the West due to the opportunities not available back in their 3rd world place of birth.

Being Harvard professor is not prospering for Iranians .. it is a privilege for Harvard to have such an intelligent Iranian



This guy, is the new Einstein .. fom same city as Azari is , Tabriz

https://america.cgtn.com/2016/08/06/nim ... d-einstein

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nima_Arkani-Hamed


If he bugged too much, he should move to China


Pls post some new Japanese Einsteins


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[noddy]

List of Japanese inventions and discoveries

Japan has contributed much more to the modern world than all the countries in the middle east added up.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

CREATING THE COMMODORE 64: THE ENGINEERS’ STORY
The daring and design that went into the best-selling computer of all time

IN JANUARY 1981, a handful of semiconductor engineers at MOS Technology in West Chester, Pa., a subsidiary of Commodore International Ltd., began designing a graphics chip and a sound chip to sell to whoever wanted to make “the world’s best video game.” In January 1982, a home computer incorporating those chips was introduced at the Winter Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, Nev. By using in-house integrated-circuit-fabrication facilities for prototyping, the engineers had cut the design time for each chip to less than nine months, and they had designed and built five prototype computers for the show in less than five weeks. What surprised the rest of the home-computer industry most, however, was the introductory price of the Commodore 64: $595 for a unit incorporating a keyboard, a central processor, the graphics and sound chips, and 64 kilobytes of memory instead of the 16 or 32 that were then considered the norm.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/commodore-64

[Typhoon]

Iran may have a population of ~ 85 million, but is a backwards theocracy stuck in the past.

https://hetg.physics.harvard.edu/news/p ... c-american


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu7eT06-xH0&t=1116s


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumrun_Vafa

.

Just another one of many fortunate immigrants who prospered in the West due to the opportunities not available back in their 3rd world place of birth.

Being Harvard professor is not prospering for Iranians .. it is a privilege for Harvard to have such an intelligent Iranian



This guy, is the new Einstein .. fom same city as Azari is , Tabriz

https://america.cgtn.com/2016/08/06/nim ... d-einstein

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nima_Arkani-Hamed


If he bugged too much, he should move to China


Pls post some new Japanese Einsteins
.

Unfortunately for you, you've chosen to go on about a field with which I am somewhat familiar.

First, physics is an experimental science.

As R. P. Feynman stated succinctly

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are.
If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

One has to feel a bit sorry for theorists such as Vafa and Arkani-Hamed, very bright and clever individuals who spent their careers working on hiigh energy particle [HEP] subfields, string "theory" and supersymmetry, respectively, that turned out to be abject dead ends.
Not just wrong, but "not even wrong".

String "theory". Theory in quotes as string "theory", despite some four decades of intense effort has yet to yield a single testable prediction. The current state of strings is that they are tangled up in their internal contradictions. Or more accurately, stuck in the "swampland".

Supersymmetry. Supersymmetric particles, the "spatricle" counterparts of the particles of the Standard Model, were first predicted to be observed at the Tevatron as Fermilab. Nothing. Then at higher energies at LEP at CERN. Nothing. Finally at the current highest energies at the LHC at CERN. Again, nothing. Supersymmetry has been effectively rules out - nature does not exhibit supersymmetry.

Within one generation, HEP has gone from being the premier field in physics to being moribund.

One also has to feel sorry for Einstein. His name is often invoked by people who have no understanding of his achievements.
Possibly the most misquoted historical figure on the internet.

Einstein was a phenomenon. Possibly unique.
His seminal contributions:
Brownian motion - the existence of atoms. Confirmed by numerous experiments.
Photoelectiric effect - the existence of light as quanta - photons. Confirmed by numerous experiments.
Special relativity - solving the then apparent inconsistency between electromagnetism and mechanics. Confirmed by numerous experiments.
General relativity - the theory of gravity which has been repeatedly tested to every higher accuracy and has passed all tests to-date.

So your examples are no "Einsteins".

Anyways, the gold standard for recognition of progress in physics, chemistry, and biology - medicine is the Nobel awards,
So,

take your pick,

[Heracleum Persicum]

Iran may have a population of ~ 85 million, but is a backwards theocracy stuck in the past.

https://hetg.physics.harvard.edu/news/p ... c-american


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu7eT06-xH0&t=1116s


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumrun_Vafa

.

Just another one of many fortunate immigrants who prospered in the West due to the opportunities not available back in their 3rd world place of birth.

Being Harvard professor is not prospering for Iranians .. it is a privilege for Harvard to have such an intelligent Iranian



This guy, is the new Einstein .. fom same city as Azari is , Tabriz

https://america.cgtn.com/2016/08/06/nim ... d-einstein

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nima_Arkani-Hamed


If he bugged too much, he should move to China


Pls post some new Japanese Einsteins
.

Unfortunately for you, you've chosen to go on about a field with which I am somewhat familiar.

First, physics is an experimental science.

As R. P. Feynman stated succinctly

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are.
If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

One has to feel a bit sorry for theorists such as Vafa and Arkani-Hamed, very bright and clever individuals who spent their careers working on hiigh energy particle [HEP] subfields, string "theory" and supersymmetry, respectively, that turned out to be abject dead ends.
Not just wrong, but "not even wrong".

String "theory". Theory in quotes as string "theory", despite some four decades of intense effort has yet to yield a single testable prediction. The current state of strings is that they are tangled up in their internal contradictions. Or more accurately, stuck in the "swampland".

Supersymmetry. Supersymmetric particles, the "spatricle" counterparts of the particles of the Standard Model, were first predicted to be observed at the Tevatron as Fermilab. Nothing. Then at higher energies at LEP at CERN. Nothing. Finally at the current highest energies at the LHC at CERN. Again, nothing. Supersymmetry has been effectively rules out - nature does not exhibit supersymmetry.

Within one generation, HEP has gone from being the premier field in physics to being moribund.

One also has to feel sorry for Einstein. His name is often invoked by people who have no understanding of his achievements.
Possibly the most misquoted historical figure on the internet.

Einstein was a phenomenon. Possibly unique.
His seminal contributions:
Brownian motion - the existence of atoms. Confirmed by numerous experiments.
Photoelectiric effect - the existence of light as quanta - photons. Confirmed by numerous experiments.
Special relativity - solving the then apparent inconsistency between electromagnetism and mechanics. Confirmed by numerous experiments.
General relativity - the theory of gravity which has been repeatedly tested to every higher accuracy and has passed all tests to-date.

So your examples are no "Einsteins".

Anyways, the gold standard for recognition of progress in physics, chemistry, and biology - medicine is the Nobel awards,
So,

take your pick,

Einstein did not have any laboratory, any research centers, any money, any budget to develop his "relativity" theories .. he was all the time broke and even had to take a job to pay bills .. all of his world shattering theories were dreamed and developed in his brain probably laying in his bed

That is what changes the world, that is the definition of a "genius"

Those "Nobel Prize winners" were the real "genius."

Today's Nobel prize winners are smart multi Phd holders, but not of "genius" cliber .. they work in team, in Billions of dollars laboratories, with unlimited resources and support of universities and governments .. with all these if they don't win "Noble Prize" that would mean they I.d.i.o.t.s


Re Japan Nobel Prize list you linked , I read each of them what they got the "Noble Prize" for .. non are of the "genius." type I explained above, they all worked in teams in expensive big laboratories and big industries.

Exception is Eisaku Satō, 1974 Prime minister, a respectable man


If a Nation has no funds for big expensive laboratory and industrial laboratories, these kind of 'scientist" can not win anything

That is and was the case with China, India, Iran

But now is changing .. China has now top top universities paar with MIT etc and has the money for expensive laboratories .. India getting there, Iran trying


What does this mean re "Nobel Prize" winners ?

It means , in a few generations many Nobel prize winner will be from China , India , Iran, etc

To have an indication who will be future "Nobel Prize" winners, check the various "Olympiads" , science, Math, physik etc etc



38xeYPAUPd0


So many top iranian experts and scientist in top US institution attests Iranian talent plenty, but money still lacks .. that changing too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Mirzakhani


https://unctad.org/webflyer/science-tec ... eview-iran


You often mention Iran "theocracy", but , mad mullahs pushing hard for Iran to excel in science .. now majority of Iran scientist are young girls, majority of science students girls .. and .. an exploding high tech startups .. Iran has now many high tech successful startups

The Ayatollahs has declared the (the Iranian year is 1400) this decade the Iranian technology excellence decade

Iran is where "science" was born ..

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[Typhoon]

The late Maryam_Mirzakhani, the [youngest] Fields Medal winner for mathematics, is just yet another example of a bright Iranian who moved to the West which provided her with opportunity and an environment in which she could thrive.

As for the rest, you've made a convincing demonstration that your know less than zero about:
the history of science;
the role of theory and experiment in science and how they are interrelated - science cannot progress without either; and
the development of science and mathematics in the West and E Asia from Galileo to today.

Iran is the birthplace of bupkes.

[Heracleum Persicum]

The late Maryam_Mirzakhani, the [youngest] Fields Medal winner for mathematics, is just yet another example of a bright Iranian who moved to the West which provided her with opportunity and an environment in which she could thrive.

As for the rest, you've made a convincing demonstration that your know less than zero about:
the history of science;
the role of theory and experiment in science and how they are interrelated - science cannot progress without either; and
the development of science and mathematics in the West and E Asia from Galileo to today.

Iran is the birthplace of bupkes.

What "Maryam Mirzakhani" was excelling at, did not need any laboratory, no big budget, no big research or Industrial facilities

She did it at home on the floor using a pencil and sheet of paper

She did not move to Stanford university for those things


Reason was more this :


https://financialtribune.com/articles/p ... -accidents

Another incident, which left a lasting mark on the nation’s memory, happened in March 1998, when a bus carrying the participants in the Mathematics Olympiad lost control and crashed in the southern city of Ahvaz. Seven students, all among the best in mathematics, were killed. Maryam Mirzakhani, the Iranian math scholar who died of breast cancer this year in the US, was among the survivors of the crash.

Many of her peers classmate were killed

Iranian Airplanes and vehicles are under US sanctions and do not get parts


What I was getting is, Iranian talent (like Maryam Mirzakhani) are in "theoretical" field (like Einstein was) , that does not need any big money or facilities, all happens in the genius brain


But

Now Iran massively funding and retaining the talent in Iran

Head of Iranian (government) Technology "marshal Plan" is : Sorena Sattari

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorena_Sattari

Most top American university educated Iranian scientist who were university professors in Iran retired.

Now, all new talent, without exception, educated in Iranian universities, Iranian scientist many in 30's and 40's age , women big part of them

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[Heracleum Persicum]

As for the rest, you've made a convincing demonstration that your know less than zero about:
the history of science;
the role of theory and experiment in science and how they are interrelated - science cannot progress without either; and
the development of science and mathematics in the West and E Asia from Galileo to today.

Although I am ETH mechanical engineer , I am no scientist and not claimed to be one

I was talking of "Scientific mindset"

What I said at the begin of this thread was that Persia was the first who introduced "scientific mindset" into science and before that Europeans were in "alchemy"

Just google and you see this is correct .. all "scientist", before Europe waking up to science, were Pomegranates


Also, these could be of interest


https://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/30/scie ... ience.html

MYT

How Islam Won, and Lost, the Lead in Science

The Arabic language was synonymous with learning and science for 500 hundred years, a golden age that can count among its credits the precursors to modern universities, algebra, the names of the stars and even the notion of science as an empirical inquiry.

''Nothing in Europe could hold a candle to what was going on in the Islamic world until about 1600,'' said Dr. Jamil Ragep, a professor of the history of science at the University of Oklahoma.

It was the infusion of this knowledge into Western Europe, historians say, that fueled the Renaissance and the scientific revolution.

''Civilizations don't just clash,'' said Dr. Abdelhamid Sabra, a retired professor of the history of Arabic science who taught at Harvard. ''They can learn from each other. Islam is a good example of that.'' The intellectual meeting of Arabia and Greece was one of the greatest events in history, he said. ''Its scale and consequences are enormous, not just for Islam but for Europe and the world.''

https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicat ... om-science

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom

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[Typhoon]

The ME Muslim nations did civilization a great service by transcribing and preserving ancient Greek science and other Greek and Roman works.
Texts such as

"The Elements" by Euclid

The start of mathematics [as opposed to arithmetic] and science in ancient Greece.

Wikipedia | Science in classical antiquity

Also, by being at the crossroads of trade, the Islamic world transmitted ideas from China [paper, gunpowder, pasta] and India [base 10 numbers, the concept of zero, some astronomy] to the West which the West further developed, refined, and put to good use.

Here's a list of Islamic contributions to math and science during the once Golden Age.

Wikipedia | Science in the medieval Islamic world

The Medieval Ages in Europe was once referred to as the "Dark Ages". However, we now know that this was an inaccurate description:

Science Was Alive and Well in the "Dark Ages"

The start of modern science is with Galileo.

Anyways, the irony that Iran should educate its children well only to have the brightest, most capable, and most ambitious move to the USA - to work for the benefit of "The Great Satan" - is somewhat amusing.

[Heracleum Persicum]

Anyways, the irony that Iran should educate its children well only to have the brightest, most capable, and most ambitious move to the USA - to work for the benefit of "The Great Satan" - is somewhat amusing.

How many "brightest, most capable, and most ambitious" Iranian talent move to US ?

Not many

If most would have moved, who would be doing the giant scientific progress in many fields in Iran ?

Who are working in Iranian space program, who are designing Iranian missile and drones and cruise missiles with pinpoint accuracy of "10 feet" after flying 1000 miles ?

and


https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2021/01/11/i ... echnology/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gu ... y-in-iran/

https://www.aei.org/articles/iran-wants ... ch-leader/

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... technology


and

https://isc.ac/en/news/105/scientific-r ... -countries


Considering Iran cut off from world last 40 yrs , considering Iran in war with west last 40 yrs, considering Iran's population went 3 fold last 40 yrs , considering Western (Iraq) proxy war with iran for 8 yrs (1 m casualty), considering all this, mad mullahs should get a "Nobel Prize" for achieving where Iran @ right now

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All the links you posted above, to be accurate, just replace "Muslim, Arab" with Persian and you will be correct

That is what I was and am getting at

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Now, another point


I say that "Mathematic" is not science .. it is part of "Logic" .. logic is a tool for science and not a science by itself

In stone age they knew 2 apples + 2 apples makes 4 apples .. this is logic .. there nothing to be discovered, this no science .. science is based on logic but logic itself no science.

Mathematicians are "master in logic" .. and .. philosophy too is part of logic, meaning philosophy and mathematic close, that we see in ancient Greece, philosophers where also top mathematicians

.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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The reported withdrawal of Beijing’s prestigious Renmin University of China (RUC)
and other institutions
from taking part in international university rankings has met strong support domestically,
reflecting a rejection of standards defined by foreign ranking systems


China aims to turn into world-beaters
Chinese institutions and specialisms to rank among the world’s best by 2030,
and the country to be a global education power by 2035



Well, there no reason this not become reality

Lesson learned : America should not piss off foreign talent ..


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firouz_Naderi


https://kayhanlife.com/authors/making-n ... am-hamidi/
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